Tag: scott lively

Vanguard extra: Extended interview with Scott Lively on Anti-Homosexuality Bill

After the premiere of Missionaries of Hate tonight, Mariana van Zeller has posted several additional extended interviews. Here is a little over 6 minutes of Scott Lively discussing his role in Uganda, the reason why the Anti-Homosexuality Bill should be passed and his view of American evangelicals.

Lively has said that it is racist to claim that Americans were responsible for the anti-gay bill and yet he claims credit for starting the “pro-family movement” in Uganda because they did not know what to do. Brace yourself, everything is said with a straight face.

Read my interview with Mariana van Zeller here.

Scott Lively goes on offense

Perhaps in preparation for the upcoming Current TV documentary on Uganda’s Anti-Homosexuality Bill, Scott Lively is going on offense. In a May 22nd email to supporters, Lively wrote:

Friends,

 

I’m looking for a good Christian media source to interview me on film on the Uganda issue for posting online.  I intend to get off defense and counter-attack the false witnesses with hard facts about Uganda and the dishonest way the media has addressed the story.  Please forward this to any pro-family journalists you know and ask them to contact me at [email protected].

In the mean time, I have created a new category of news stories at DefendtheFamily.com under the title “Uganda.”  There are about 20 stories there now, going back to about 2003 which show the growing problem of pro-homosexual activism in that country, long before my 2009 seminar which is now being blamed for creating a climate of “homophobia” in Uganda. There are also numerous examples of liberal media propaganda about the anti-homosexuality bill.

If you happen to hear someone criticize me based on the intense, global anti-Scott Lively character assassination by these media, please refer them to our website, both to read the material there, but also to download Redeeming the Rainbow: A Christian Response to the “Gay” Agenda which was the source of all of my comments and teaching in Uganda.

Thanks for standing with me through the firestorm,

Dr. Scott Lively

As he notes on his website, there are several articles going back to 2003 (although some of the links are broken), including a letter addressed to the Parliament of Uganda back in March. The letter is long but the highlights are that he favors targeted criminalization but with the aim being rehabilitation rather than prison. He indicates in this letter that he knew the Parliament was considering new legislation at the time (March, 2009). He also frames his views as a “don’t ask, don’t tell” public policy:

I believe you could easily adapt this model to your purposes by imposing this same reporting requirement on anyone with knowledge of homosexuals who involve themselves with anyone under a certain age. If, for example, you encompassed all youths under the age of twenty-five within this shield of protection, you would stop virtually all “gay” recruitment in your country, since normal young men and women are usually firmly set in their heterosexual identity by their mid-twenties. On the other hand, you would preserve the right to privacy of adults who are not activists or pederasts but simply want to live their lives in relative peace. This would function much like the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy in the United States military. Adult homosexuals would remain subject to the law, but not actively pursued if they are discrete about their lifestyle.

Lively professes opposition to the death penalty but the reasons sound pragmatic rather than principled.

First and foremost, the inclusion of capital punishment for what you have classed as “aggravated homosexuality” is, in my view, a disproportionately harsh penalty. You may not be aware that capital punishment has been banned in numerous countries, even for the most extreme cases of aggravated murder. This is held as such an important policy that these nations will often refuse to extradite criminals to their home countries (including the United States) if there is any possibility that they will be subject to capital punishment there. Advocating the “death penalty” for “mere” sexual crimes evokes such a severe negative reaction in most Western nations that all other aspects of the law, and the rationale for drafting it is ignored, and very “gay” movement we seek to oppose is strengthened by public sympathy they would not otherwise enjoy.

Conversely, if the “death penalty” provision were removed, it would take the wind out of the sails of their current campaign against the bill. With so much of the international opposition rooted in the idea that this is a “Kill the Gays” law, the removal of this provision would represent enough of a concession on your part that a great many of the people who are now siding with the homosexual movement out of sympathy would consider the matter resolved. The “gay” activists and their political allies will, of course, continue to attack the bill, but from a much weaker position.

You can read the whole thing and form your own conclusions, but according to the response provided, the bill supporters did not want to make any changes. Note the players involved in getting the letter to Parliament and then the response to Lively. Martin Ssempa received Lively’s letter and forwarded it to Parliament. Then, the responder was Charles Tuhaise, who has emerged as a major supporter of the bill. Here is the reply:

My letter was forwarded to Members of Parliament by Dr. Martin Ssempa. This was the reply.

March 10, 2010

Dr. Ssempa,

Thanks for sending Dr. Lively’s Letter. His proposals can be considered as we make our revisions, but, while I appreciate the need to have people like Lively campaign for the Bill and the law when passed, there are obvious dangers in trying to equalise the policy and law on homosexuality between USA and Uganda. The two countries are dealing with totally different situations. The time when USA should have enacted a preventive law like we are contemplating passed a long time ago and they are faced with a huge and financially and politically powerful gay population recruited into homosexuality because no one foresaw the need for a preventive law in time (probably in the 1940s). If such comprehensive law (not merely about sodomy) had been in place, people like Alfred Kinsey would not have done so much damage by opening the door wide for homosexuality.

The situation in Uganda today is different because homosexuality is still a budding problem. We either nip it in the bud now with a strong, preventive law or give it a foothold to grow from.

The danger I see in Dr. Lively’s suggestions is in proposing to

normalise homosexual practice for adults (whatever age they may be). That is the Western approach generally which has failed miserably, because what is held as normal practice by adults will be adopted by children and youth automatically. It’s just a matter of time before the whole culture is swamped in homosexual practice. That’s how pornography broke barriers in Western society and became insidious. It’s like the proverbial “Camel and herdsman story”. Today it is a foot in the hut, tomorrow it is a leg in the hut, next day its the head in the hut; before long, the herdsman is tossed out of the hut.

I agree with Dr. Lively that the Death Penalty can be removed, but it must be replaced by equally strong and detterent penalties. The purpose of penalties is to detter people from behaviour with far-reaching consequences. What the Bill needs, to me, is solid research into the consequences of homosexuality. Its huge health-risks and social, cultural and economic disruption need to be documented and not merely talk about defending our “religious and cultural practices”. In countries or territories with legalised homosexuality, parents and religious bodies have lost the right to teach against homosexuality; a property owner will not refuse to rent a house or hotel room to a homosexual couple based on belief, conscience or fear of influence on neighbouhood children; teachers must teach that homosexuality is normal lyfestyle or lose their licences; children in Kindergarten are introduced to homosexual books and other indoctrination e.t.c. All these are reasons we must do everything to stop and prevent homosexual practice.

Ultimately, I see no way out in taking a stand and paying the price. We cannot adopt an innefective policy against homosexuality just to prevent loss of donor funds. Our friends in the West must stand with Uganda as we take a serious stand against homosexual infiltration. What we need is more nations to stand up and do the same. There will be no place for lukewarmness, the way I see this situation. It’s time for nations to stand up for what is right and pay the price. The more nations do this, the more the tide will turn against the homosexual movement. Christians in the West must know that it is time to pay the price for truth. Unwillingness to do this is responsible for infiltration and takeover of virtually every western insitution by homosexuals, including the church.

I admire the courage of my friend Dr. Lively, because he has stood up to homosexual intimidation for so long as a lone voice. We need more people like him in the days, weeks, months and years ahead. The homosexual machine is well organised and its agenda is not conciliation with anyone but total take-over of society. Africa is probably is the last place they are trying to take-over that has the best hope to turn the tide, if we do not mess-up the opportunity.

Charles Tuhaise

(P/S: You can forward my comments to Dr. Scott Lively)

Mr. Tuhaise may have forgotten where he heard all about pornography and homosexuality. According to Lively, about the same message came from his highly successful visit to Uganda in March, 2009:

The Ugandan people are strongly pro-family, and there is a large Christian population which is much more activist minded than that of most western countries. However, the international “gay” movement has devoted a lot of resources to transforming the moral culture from a marriage-based one to one that embraces sexual anarchy. Just as in the U.S. many years ago they are leading with pornography to weaken the moral fiber of the people, and propagandizing the children behind the parents’ backs. On the TV show we exposed a book distributed to schools by UNICEF that normalizes homosexuality to teenagers. (We expect a massive protest by parents, who are mostly not aware that such materials even exist in their country, let alone in their childrens’ classrooms.)

Mr. Tuhaise seems to be saying that the bill is necessary based on what Scott Lively taught when he was in Uganda. The Ugandan supporters of the bill believe they are carrying the teachings of Lively to their logical conclusion.

…..

Read a current update on the status of the Anti-Homosexuality Bill.

For all articles on Uganda, click here.

ABC News: Anti-Homosexuality Bill causes global uproar

Tonight, Nightline is covering Uganda’s Anti-Homosexuality Bill. The preview is an article on the ABC News website, extensively quoting Martin Ssempa and Scott Lively.

First a catchy way to begin a news story:

Standing onstage in black velvet robes, despite the stifling heat in the open-air church, Pastor Martin Ssempa’s face is a mask of disgust.

“Anal licking!,” he shouts, directing the crowd’s attention to the images of hardcore gay pornography that he’s projecting via his laptop. “That is what they are doing in the privacy of their bedrooms.”

“Everything having to do with eating of poop…heterosexuals do not eat poop,” Ssempa said. “And if they do, they are misguided, they are not real heterosexuals. We don’t practice, that’s an abomination. It’s like sex with a dog, sex with a cow; it’s evil.”

Wow, where do you go from there? The story then weaves material from Ssempa, Scott Lively and Val Kalende, a Uganda lesbian.

The bill was introduced several months after a visit by several American evangelicals, who spoke at a conference called the “Seminar on Exposing the Homosexual Agenda.”

One of them was Scott Lively, a pastor from Temecula, Calif., who believes that countries like Uganda can still protect themselves from what he sees as the scourge of the gay agenda.

“These are good Christians; better Christians than there are here in the states,” says Lively. “They care about each other. And I think the reason they’re pushing so hard on this law is that they don’t want to see what happened to our country happen over there.”

He told the conference’s audience, made up of teachers, social workers, and politicians that “even though the majority of homosexuals are not oriented towards young people, there’s a significant number who are. And when they see a child from a broken home, it’s like they have a flashing neon sign over their head.”

Lively, who is the president of Defend the Family, is also the author of a book called “The Pink Swastika”, which argues that the Nazi Party was a homosexual movement.

Then David Bahati tries the same line he has used before: the bill doesn’t say what it says.

The bill also calls for seven years in prison for “attempt to commit homosexuality,” five years for landlords who knowingly house gays, three years for anyone, including parents, who fail to hand gay children over to the police within 24 hours and the extradition of gay Ugandans living abroad.

The bill’s sponsor, David Bahati, now insists the death penalty only applies to homosexual pedophiles.

“The whole thing has been distorted, ” he said. “And we know that some copies of the bill have been circulated on the Internet, which are incorrect.”

Bahati defends the bill’s stringency. “Well it can sound tough to some people but it’s acceptable to our community here. Remember that here in Uganda, 95 percent of our population does not support homosexuality.”

If anyone from ABC News is reading, please put the Uganda Gazette copy of the bill on your website. Here it is. This is the official copy. I asked Parliamentary research service staffer Charles Tuhaise if I had the official copy and he confirmed that I do. Tuhaise also confirmed that the bill is about more than punishing pedophiles when he said to me:

…you have read the Bill and know that its object is to outlaw all same-sex sexual conduct. The question of “consenting adults” therefore does not arise. All same-sex sexual conduct is proscribed under the Bill.

Can’t get much clearer than that.

Where is the situation now? ABC News is reporting that the bill will be debated later this month.

But the outrage in the West may mean the bill gets watered down or even killed. The Ugandan parliament will hold hearings on it later this month.

As for Lively, he says if they drop the death penalty, he’ll actually endorse it. Whether the bill passes or not, the culture wars – both at home and abroad – promise to continue raging on.

According to a source in the Parliament, the bill has not been reviewed by committees and is not scheduled for any action at this point. That could change of course, but clearly the bill has been slowed down.

Uganda’s Anti-Homosexuality Bill: What are American Christians doing?

This post will be a work in progress in that I am going to list organizations with connections to those in Uganda who are suporting the Anti-Homosexuality Bill. As I learn of various statements and positions of American Christian groups, I will post them, even if there are no particular ties to promoters of the bill. I need to caution readers that being listed here does not mean that the organization or anyone in it supports the bill. Reactions have varied and those reactions are what I am trying to capture. As organizations change there positions or views, I will change this page to reflect new information.

I will begin with the three Americans who spoke at the Kampala conference “Understanding the Gay Agenda” in March. I posted on this here early and was quoted in the Ugandan press as a critic of the conference as it was about to begin.

Scott Lively (Defend the Family International) – As of January 10, Scott Lively endorsed a revised Anti-Homosexuality Bill which removes the death penalty and encourages counseling. The problem is that I cannot confirm that such a revision exists. In an email exchange, Lively would not disclose whether or not he has seen a revision.

Caleb Brundidge (International Healing Foundation) – Initially, there was silence from Brundidge and the International Healing Foundation about the ex-gay conference and the bill. Cohen’s book Coming Out Straight was referred to positively during the Kampala conference and at a follow up conference. In the IHF’s Summer, 2009 newsletter,  Brundidge wrote an article detailing the trip. When the national and international media began to report this story, Brundidge’s former therapist and mentor at IHF, Richard Cohen, stepped forward to comment, on the Rachel Maddow Show and via an open letter to the Ugandan parliament. In the letter, he expresses strong opposition to the bill but then asks them to emphasize therapy.

Don Schmierer (Exodus International) – In contrast to the above two organizations, Exodus International did not send Don Schmierer to Uganda. The organization was warned that the conference was to take place and advised to contact Mr. Schmierer and ask him to reconsider taking part. They did not do so and seemed slow to grasp the significance of the event. Initially, Exodus supported Mr. Schmierer’s attendance there even as they condemned criminalization of homosexuality in March, 2009.  Later, after the bill was introduced, Exodus International expressed strong opposition to it saying so in a letter signed by Alan Chambers, Randy Thomas, Christopher Yuan and me (I am not affiliated with Exodus but signed as an expression of support for the move Exodus made to engage).  Later, Don Schmierer added his signature.

Mr. Schmierer has recently told several news sources that he felt duped into participating and was misled about the intent of the conference by organizer Stephen Langa.

“It wasn’t what we agreed on for advertising,” Schmierer said. “He had me write out 45-minute speech on healthy parenting. I found out a week before I got there he made it a three-day event and added more people. One guy was speaking on fighting the gay agenda. The way we were all listed on the program, I can see why people lump us together.”

Schmierer said he didn’t want to back out of the conference because he wanted to be gracious to the host, and said he didn’t have any indications at the time that his talk about parenting would become a lightning rod for criticism.

Since no actual revision has materialized, it is not clear how Mr. Brundidge or Mr. Schmierer would feel about a bill which removed the death penalty and added counseling.

The following people and organizations have various connections to the principle people in Uganda who support the Anti-Homosexuality Bill. I also note whether they have commented on the bill.

Rick Warren – Initially many critics looked to the Saddleback pastor as being involved with the bill because of his prior connection to Ugandan Martin Ssempa, who spoke at an early AIDS conference hosted by Saddleback Church. On October 30, Rick and Kay Warren released a statement to me revealing that they had severed ties with Martin Ssempa in 2007 because “his views and actions were in serious conflict with our own.”  Martin Ssempa is relevant because he has been a vocal champion of the bill from the time of the first reading and is now chair of the Uganda National Pastors Task Force Against Homosexuality. The mission of the task force is to promote the passage of the bill.

Rev. Warren followed his statement regarding Ssempa with this video and print message to Ugandan pastors. The video made clear his personal opposition, enhanced the visibility of the story and laid out a clear rationale for broad Christian opposition to the bill. Then, the Uganda pastors task force issued a print and video rebuttal to Rev. Warren using Martin Ssempa as spokesman.

The Fellowship Foundation – The Fellowship Foundation (aka The Family) sponsors the upcoming National Prayer Breakfast in Washington DC. They also recruit people to conduct similar events in countries around the world. In Uganda, the prayer breakfast is organized by Nsaba Buturo with assistance from parliamentarians, including Anti-Homosexuality Bill author David Bahati. These connections, disclosed by author Jeff Sharlet on National Public Radio led to questions about the role of the Fellowship.   Later, Mr. Sharlet provided a guest post confirming and expanding on my reporting that the Fellowship opposes the Anti-Homosexuality Bill. Fellowship member, Bob Hunter, has spoken candidly to Sharlet that the Fellowship has opposed the bill from the time they first became aware of it.

America’s Survival – This group, headed by Cliff Kincaid, published Scott Lively’s endorsement of the bill on their front page. Mr. Kincaid has also published articles defending Mr. Lively’s speeches in Uganda and in one called the Anti-Homosexuality Bill, “pro-family legislation.”

The organization is also requesting that constituents contact Ugandan officials with the following message:

Contact the Embassy of Uganda in the U.S. and express your support for their efforts to keep homosexual influences out of their country.

Family Watch International – This Gilbert, AZ organization promotes adoption and abstinence programming. Martin Ssempa is listed as being a volunteer team member:

Martin Ssempa, FWI African Coordinator (volunteer) – Internationally renowned family activist.  Helped Ugandan government develop its national policy on abstinence in the fight against HIV/AIDS.  Has spoken extensively on the subjects of AIDS, marriage, pornography and drug addiction.  Testified before the U.S. Congress, explaining how the U.S. aid programs that rely on condom promotion and distribution have exacerbated the AIDS problem in Africa.  He is helping Family Watch coordinate pro-family efforts in Africa.

College of Prayer – Led by Atlanta’s Fred Hartley, the College of Prayer has an ongoing relationship with David Bahati, Benson Obua-Ogwal (co-sponsors of the bill) and Nsaba Buturo (Minster of Ethics and Integrity who has strongly supported the bill). The CoP mentors and supports the Parliament leaders who take advantage of these meetings. Regarding the bill, Rev. Hartley told me he saw an early draft of the bill in the Summer of 2009 which did not contain the death penalty. In fact, he doubted that critics had the actual bill since Hon. Bahati told him that electronic copies were unauthorized.

Another bill supporter and CoP connection, Apostle Julius Oyet was scheduled to speak in Atlanta for a CoP event in early February. Oyet, presiding Apostle of the Born Again Federation,  was in parliament’s chamber when the bill was introduced and afterward prayed to thank God for the bill the introduction of which he believed would keep God from destroying Uganda. Apostle Oyet was scheduled to speak at a College of Prayer event in Atlanta during February 4-6. I recently learned from the CoP that the speaking engagement had been cancelled. No reason was given.  The CoP has issued no public statement regarding the bill, however, director Hartley told me that he opposes the bill and opposes criminalization of homosexuality. He also indicated that CoP activities in Uganda are on hold. It seems clear to me, despite the lack of public disapproval, that the CoP does not support the bill and had no part in creating it.

WAIT Training – After meeting Martin Ssempa at the Saddleback AIDS conference in 2005, Joneen Mackenzie, founder and director of WAIT Training decided to assist Ssempa spread his abstinence message in the US. She helped him construct a website and agreed to distribute a DVD of his speeches and book speaking engagements. 

Initially, when contacted about their stance on the Anti-Homosexuality Bill, Mackenzie provided a statement which neither endorsed or opposed Ssempa’s efforts (scroll down to comments). However, Mackenzie recently alerted me that WAIT Training had severed ties with Ssempa over the Anti-Homosexuality Bill. As an aspect of this move, she place a statement on her website and asked Ssempa to remove references to WAIT Training from his website (which he has done). 

Disciple Nations Alliance – The African representative of mission organization DNA is Stephen Langa. Langa organized the ex-gay conference in March which was designed to kick off efforts to enact stonger laws against homosexuality. DNA issued a statement here maintaining confidence in Mr. Langa while expressing significant concerns about the bill.

Teen Mania – Recently, Teen Mania issued a statement about the Anti-Homosexuality bill. Initially, TM had informed people that the bill covered only child abuse and rape, however, on their Facebook page, the group issued a statement expressing concerns about the bill and promising to evaluate African ministry partners in light of those concerns. Specifically, the prominent ministry partner is Martin Ssempa as Teen Mania is contemplating setting up a leadership training organization in Uganda.

World Outreach Ministries – This organization is an organization which processes funds for the Ssempas. They are not a “sending board” which would mean an organization who trained and mentored them on their way to the mission field, but rather a service agency. The Ssempas are supported by Canyon Ridge Christian Church in Las Vegas and until recently New Hyde Park Baptist Church on Long Island. Director Jason Peebles told me that he and his staff are evaluating the situation but felt that Teen Mania’s statement was a good expression of their position.

Canyon Ridge Christian Church – Canyon Ridge supports the Ssempa’s financially and via mission trips to assist his Makerere Community Church. Regarding the Anti-Homosexuality Bill 2009, executive pastor Mitch Harrison provided this statement:

Canyon Ridge Christian Church partners with missionaries and ministry leaders around the world, including Martin Ssempa, for the purpose of reaching people with the gospel of Jesus Christ and providing humanitarian aid where possible.

 

With the oversight of our elders and missions team, we constantly evaluate our ministry partners and their activities. We will only support those who engage in and promote activities consistent with the redemptive and grace-filled purposes of Jesus Christ in the world.

 

Canyon Ridge Christian Church does not wish to enter into the debate over the legislation in Uganda. We do encourage those involved to seek God’s leadership in humility and grace and to follow Jesus command to love one another as they wrestle with this difficult issue. Our prayers are for the good of the people Uganda.

Oral Roberts University – Martin Ssempa is on the Board of Reference for ORU. Public Relations Director, Jeremy Burton explained the Board of Reference duties:

  • This Board of Reference is to provide for effective communication an informative exchange and service among the public, ORU’s stakeholders, and the University.
  • A board of reference is for the purpose of credibility, for reputation, and for influence.
  • As a member of the Board of Reference, your name and your circle of influence lends reputation to the credibility of Oral Roberts University.
  • A board of reference has no voting privileges and does not have any regularly scheduled meetings.

Mr. Burton declined to issue any other statement regarding the Anti-Homosexuality Bill.

Watch this space for updates…