Inside the Former Mars Hill Church Elders Call for Mark Driscoll to Resign from The Trinity Church

In a stunning statement posted this morning at Christianity Today, 39 former Mars Hill Church elders call on Mars Hill co-founder and current The Trinity Church pastor Mark Driscoll to resign from his current post. Their message is simple: Driscoll was disqualified from pastoring at his former church and never completed a restoration process to become qualified. He now is repeating past mistakes and should step down.

This message follows months of revelations here on this blog, at Julie Roys’ website, and elsewhere from former The Trinity Church members of actions which sounded like the Mars Hill Church charges which were investigated in 2014. As former Mars Hill colleagues and executive committee members Sutton Turner and Dave Bruskas detailed in this interview with me last year, Driscoll resigned before he was restored to pastoral ministry at Mars Hill.

Inside the Statement

The elder statement dropped today has been in the works for several weeks. The CT article about the statement chronicles the interaction of some of those former Mars Hill leaders and members and recent Trinity Church leavers. There is a community of people from Seattle and Phoenix who now have Mark Driscoll in common. No doubt more than one person has said, ‘nice to meet you, sorry it is under these circumstances.’

The formal charges against Driscoll covered the years 2011-2014. The elders who were contacted to sign the statement served during that time frame. Thirty-nine elders signed the statement but there are 26 who agreed with it but declined to sign for various reasons. According to an elder close to the process, the main reasons elders who agreed with the statement declined to sign it was fear of legal or other kind of retaliation from Driscoll or fear of jeopardy to their current ministry or other job. Some worried about the emotional toll of public involvement. Very few, less than a dozen, disagreed with the action.

This statement comes during the “Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” podcast series which is shining a light on the Seattle megachurch. The cognitive dissonance must be extreme for people continuing to attend The Trinity Church.

The interviews with former executive elders at Mars Hill Church Sutton Turner and Dave Bruskas are below:

Part One

Part Two (Much of the discussion of the end of Mars Hill and Driscoll’s resignation is in this part)

215 thoughts on “Inside the Former Mars Hill Church Elders Call for Mark Driscoll to Resign from The Trinity Church”

  1. Are ya’ll so weak that you can’t take getting yelled out for your sins? lmao this only makes me like Driscoll more.

  2. To be fair, we shouldn’t blame drizzy for his shortcomings. Its not like there weren’t plenty of photos showing him in a puca shell choker. Jokes on us for listening to that pompous windbag.
    I know everyone is upset because he is disqualified. However its important to remember that pastors aren’t important like insurance salesman. They dont need accreditation to peddle their crap.
    Others are upset that he misuses funds. I give my tithings because I feel called to. If drizzy wants to steal from God thats up to him.
    Personally the part that really gets me upset is that a coward that is vertically challenged as he is, would have the gall to speak about being a man. Dude needs a booster step to get into his compensation jeep and needs three security guards to protect him from little girls. He preaches about loving his congregation while he accused my daughter of having a demonic spirit. All of this while his wife prances around as arm candy escorted by security to ensure she doesn’t talk to males and cheat on him again. Maybe if he spent less time pretending to be something he isn’t he could have been there for his daughter and helped her not swap spit with a kid two years younger.

  3. To be fair, we shouldn’t blame drizzy for his shortcomings. Its not like there weren’t plenty of photos showing him in a puca shell choker. Jokes on us for listening to that pompous windbag.

    I know everyone is upset because he is disqualified. However its important to remember that pastors aren’t important like insurance salesman. They dont need accreditation to peddle their crap.

    Others are upset that he misuses funds. I give my tithings because I feel called to. If drizzy wants to steal from God thats up to him.

    Personally the part that really gets me upset is that a coward that is vertically challenged as he is, would have the gall to speak about being a man. Dude needs a booster step to get into his compensation jeep and needs three security guards to protect him from little girls. He preaches about loving his congregation while he accused my daughter of having a demonic spirit. All of this while his wife prances around as arm candy escorted by security to ensure she doesn’t talk to males and cheat on him again. Maybe if he spent less time pretending to be something he isn’t he could have been there for his daughter and helped her not swap spit with a kid two years younger.

  4. “Ilindel” creates on account on July 28, 2021 and spends two days attacking anyone who has an issue with Mark Driscoll, often resorting to legal standards as though they are relevant (but of course could be if legal proceedings begin), attacking former victims of Mark and dodging the points made by others.

    I feel like we’ve seen this before. Mark maybe? One of his family members? Certainly someone from the church.

    The fact is that the majority of people who have worked with Driscoll have eventually found him to be sinful and unfit to lead.

    1. I would point out the last “Driscollite” who posted here, simply claimed to be a “church member” who “didn’t know” about Driscoll’s history. “Ilindel” is insinuating a much closer connection to Driscoll and implying “insider info.”

    2. On July 27th, I posted this: “Followers of Driscoll over the years have one thing in common: all of them fail to justify Driscoll’s documented record of fraud and abuse. Their attempts to distract, derail, and obfuscate with lies and deception are all they have to offer the world.”

      On July 28th, “Ilindel” creates a Disqus account to post comments confirming my very point with nothing but failed attempts to distract, derail, and obfuscate with lies and deception. Their predictable self-serving gospel of lies is the only gospel they know.

    3. Reading the venom and personal vindictiveness dripping from Ilendel’s comments, I also thought “Driscoll?”

      Interesting that both Ilendel and Driscoll invoke twisted versions of the story of Potiphar’s wife to defend a certain pastor from accusations.

      Ilendel: 7/27/21: Because he chose to leave a church that had taken on, and embraced an evilness of the worst kind – betrayal, self righteousness, hate. and darkness – and yet continue to answer the call on his life, bugs the heck out of satan, and you. Your like a spurned lover. Like Potiphar’s wife. Wanting to throw Mark in jail because he has spurned your attentions. Well get over yourself.

      Then listen to The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, Ep. 5, at the 36:12 mark.
      https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/podcasts/rise-and-fall-of-mars-hill/mars-hill-mark-driscoll-podcast-things-we-do-women.htm

    4. Reading the venom and personal vindictiveness dripping from Ilendel’s comments, I also thought “Driscoll?”

      Interesting that both Ilendel and Driscoll invoke twisted versions of the story of Potiphar’s wife to defend a certain pastor from accusations.

      Ilendel: 7/27/21: Because he chose to leave a church that had taken on, and embraced an evilness of the worst kind – betrayal, self righteousness, hate. and darkness – and yet continue to answer the call on his life, bugs the heck out of satan, and you. Your like a spurned lover. Like Potiphar’s wife. Wanting to throw Mark in jail because he has spurned your attentions. Well get over yourself.

      Then listen to The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, Ep. 5, at the 36:12 mark.
      https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/podcasts/rise-and-fall-of-mars-hill/mars-hill-mark-driscoll-podcast-things-we-do-women.htm

        1. Thanks. I’d heard of Driscoll’s little charade on the Christianity Today podcast, but it’s still difficult to read the transcripts and think “This is a Man of God?”

  5. How’s about if all the people who make up this alleged “Driscoll hate group” just refuse to engage with any posts by llindel? Seriously! Let’s do it!

    1. Understood…but this person knows who I am but is too chicken to come down and talk to me on the sidewalk.

    2. “The [arrogant] fool’s anger is quickly known [because he lacks self-control and common sense], But a prudent man ignores an insult.” Prov. 12:16 – and no preacher needed to understand what it plainly says.

  6. Warren, I’ve been listening to CT’s “Rise & Fall…” series and I was struck by the discontinuity of recent-history Mark D vs just-starting-Mars Hill Mark D… The series plays some of his teaching/preaching from the way-way back and I’ll admit that some of it sounds like it was headed in a more progressive direction (He makes some points I agree with!) Because I’ve mostly been reading/hearing about Mark D in the more recent past… during/after the scandals, from the watch blogs, I was not aware of this. I believe I knew he had some early connections with the Emergent movement (influential part of my journey out of fundamentalist evangelicalism), and so if that’s what he was rubbing shoulders with in the beginning, it makes sense that his early public teaching might echo that trajectory…

    BUT, instead he turned… and the CT series doesn’t really seem to dig deep into the why? Why did he start sounding more like John MacArthur, but even more jacked up and brash? Do you have any ideas or speculation on that? Was Mark D on your radar in those very early years?

    1. There are still several episodes of the CT podcast yet to go; it’s likely they will dig deeper into the reasons why.

      1. Yeah, well, they haven’t exactly done super well in the five episodes currently out there. And I will tell you why. It’s because Christianity Today and others in the Evangelical Industrial Complex (a) supported Mark Driscoll (b) promoted Mark Driscoll and (c) teach a lot of the same things as Mark Driscoll. Episode 5 of the podcast is called “The Things We Do To Women” and Mike Cosper got a LOT of pushback from women, in part because the things that were done to women at Mars Hill are done at churches all across the country.

        I do not think that Evangelicalism can sufficiently examine their own disasters.

        1. I’ve enjoyed listening to the five episodes so far, but the podcast producers don’t seem prepared to examine whiteness or patriarchy, the twin pillars that make Driscoll possible in the first place.

          Critiques of Mars Hill and TTC need to go beyond “look at Driscoll’s downfall” to instead “what do healthy communities look like where people like Driscoll are never accepted into leadership in the first place.”

        2. I’ve learned a lot I didn’t know about Mars Hill from the podcast, but you’re right, it is about a mile wide and an inch deep in a lot of ways. I also agree that the Evangelical world is not capable of properly examining itself and solving its own problems. That’s why I wish someone outside the Evangelical world, in the more mainstream media world would take a long, hard look at Mars Hill, Trinity and the megalomaniacs that run megachurches in general.

          The “Gangster Capitalism” podcast did an excellent job with their recent season all about Jerry Falwell Jr. and Liberty University, going far beyond the “pool boy” scandal and exposing much more that is rotten about the Falwells and Liberty U. It would be great to see them turn their attention to Driscoll and his operations…I think I’m going to email the producers…Though part of me fears that Driscoll has not yet generated a salacious enough scandal for more mainstream outlets to take an interest. There are no celebrities attending services at Mars Hill and Trinity unlike Hillsong, and nothing as sordid as the Falwells and the pool boy….yet….

    2. No he wasn’t. He wasn’t on my radar until late 2013. I never have been a celeb pastor type and had just heard the name but didn’t know much about him until the Strange Fire conference and Janet Mefferd interview. Once I started writing about those things, people started contacting me with their stories and loads of info.

      I suppose bizness seemed better in the conservative world than in the progressive world.

  7. Seriously, why would Pastor Driscoll resign? Just because a bunch of cancel culture megalomaniacs are frustrated that he was able to go on with teaching about Jesus without them is no reason he should stop now in my opinion. All of you people are hilarious. You think that because someone didn’t follow YOUR rules, they don’t have the right to lead in church? Have you even read the Bible? Do you know who the Pharisee’s were? That’s who you sound exactly like. Deciding that you have the right to order the Driscoll’s out of the church they started. Last I heard, God was the supreme judge. If Pastor Mark is leading people to Christ in Trinity Church, I gather that is more than any of you are doing in your failed church, through your picketing, or your cancel culture. And I dare to ask the creator of this very blog, or ANY of those who have participated in sending in their dear john letters how many souls their actions have brought to the Lord? Do any of you know if there is any truth to the accusations made against Mark at Trinity? Do you have personal knowledge? I am certain you don’t. And yet you speak of them as if they are absolute. And neglect to point out that Mark was absolved of any wrong doing in Mars Hill, and in fact, was asked to stay on. Because he chose to leave a church that had taken on, and embraced an evilness of the worst kind – betrayal, self righteousness, hate. and darkness – and yet continue to answer the call on his life, bugs the heck out of satan, and you. Your like a spurned lover. Like Potiphar’s wife. Wanting to throw Mark in jail because he has spurned your attentions. Well get over yourself.

    1. “Seriously, why would Pastor Driscoll resign?”

      Because he is an abusive con man who is using his church to bankroll a lavish lifestyle rather than actually help people spiritually.

      “You think that because someone didn’t follow YOUR rules, they don’t have the right to lead in church?”

      Driscoll doesn’t even follow his own rules (see “Dricoll’s elderless church” and followup articles for details). In the US pretty much anybody can set up a church (see John Oliver’s Lady of Perpetual Exemption)

      However, the same Amendment that allows you to set up just about any type of
      “church” you want, also allows others to criticize your church and how you run it.

      “Do any of you know if there is any truth to the accusations made against Mark at Trinity?”

      Until you (or Driscoll) can provide actual evidence they are lying, I will accept what they say is true. Esp. since there are so many of them saying it. Also, that when Driscoll was given a chance to actually confront the accusations he just ran away instead. So much for the “brave christian soldier.”

      “And neglect to point out that Mark was absolved of any wrong doing in Mars Hills”

      Where are you getting Driscoll was “absolved”? and by whom?

      1. Mark does report to elders. But the board of elders is for HIM to report to, as even indicated in one of these articles that I won’t bother to link to because you can do your own homework. However, Mark started this church. He can do what he wants. People are free to come and go. There are no members, despite what is often misstated throughout these blogs and posts.
        So everyone is innocent until proven guilty, except Mark Driscoll? “So many of them saying it”? Saying what? All are saying different things. Mark was absolved of any legal wrong doings. By the law. And as for moral issues, these are accusations with no proof other than “he said”, “we felt”, “my feelings were hurt”…. ” he didn’t listen to us”. Some of the people posting on here are calling for Mark to go to jail, yet Mark has never done, or been found guilty of doing anything illegal. Are they suggesting an innocent man go to jail? Hmmmm….. brings me back to Potiphar’s wife. But I warn you all, that only caused Joseph to grow in favor and power.

        1. “However, Mark started this church. He can do what he wants”
          Pretty hard to improve on this for accuracy or conciseness as describing the heart of Mark Driscoll’s problems.

          How can anyone read the New Testament and the description of the qualifications for elders and possibly consider this an acceptable description of how a local church is to be governed?

          P.S. To be totally accurate, “No one is the boss of me” might win for conciseness.

          1. Actually, it is the EXACT description of the biblical role of the elder. Perhaps you needs some help in understanding scripture. If you disagree with this, why don’t you do some research and look it up yourself.

          2. Actually, it is the EXACT description of the biblical role of the elder. Perhaps you needs some help in understanding scripture. If you disagree with this, why don’t you do some research and look it up yourself.

          3. Mark has no elders. He has never had elders. So how can he have the “biblical role of elders” if he has no elders?

            He has had “wise counsel” but it appears right now that the only person who has the ability to get through to Mark is some dude named Randal Taylor who comes out and visits a couple of times a month. I’m almost certain that Randal Taylor is not doing this out of the goodness of his heart, but is getting paid, but we have no idea how much Taylor is pulling down because, gee, the TTC books are unavailable.

          4. Your statement isn’t correct. Driscoll had elders at Mars Hill, which is why he doesn’t have any at Trinity.

          5. I have spent the last 40 years in an elder led church so I will respectfully decline your help in understanding Scripture on this topic.

            Point 1 … your differentiation between “elders” and “pastor” is simply not scriptural. The “pastor” is an elder and serves as part of a board/group of elders.

            Point 2 – “Mark started this church. He can do what he wants.” How can you possibly maintain that this is a scriptural model for how a body of believers is to function? Where do you find a single passage … or sentence … or word … that conveys those sentiments? There is something desperately desperately wrong with your exegesis if you maintain that the above quote (and the mindset it reveals) are consistent with Scripture.

            Point 3 – Do you really not realize how utterly ridiculous you appear with your endless series of posts in support of MD and your never ending series of claims about how his (your) church functions with never a shred of evidence or support for your claims while you hide behind a pseudonym and lack the courage to identify yourself?

          6. That’s also my experience as an Elder in a PC(USA) congregation is exactly the same. AND Our elders are elected by the congregation to serve a term. They are not chosen by the Pastor. Also everyone knows the name of every elder and in our case what ministry they oversee.

      2. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha …. you simply crack me up with your “lavish lifestyle”. I have seen how the Driscoll’s live. I live in Scottsdale and know what it means to live lavishly. I can assure you they do not live lavishly. But you do realize that Mark has written many books and does speaking engagements that he is free to accept income from. And he is also free to invest any income he has. And if he wisely invests money, and works hard and earns a good income (inside and outside the church), good for him! Why is that your concern? Is this another rule you Pharisees have… though shall never have more than two pennies?

        1. Yes, I’m aware Driscoll has written books. I’m also aware that he used church funds to pay an organization to buy those books in order to get them put on the NYT best-seller list.

          “And if he wisely invests money, and works hard and earns a good income (inside and outside the church), good for him! Why is that your
          concern?”

          Because that is not what Driscoll is doing. what he is doing is conning a bunch of people into giving him money and playing a shell game with those donations to support other business venture (“Real Faith”).

          1. And on an even more fundamental level, Driscoll owes his wealth and fame to the fact that he was pastor of a megachurch. Without that congregation’s donations, he would have no platform to sell millions of books and videos. Sure, in a business sense, its his money to do with as he pleases, but then I thought pastors were supposed to be held to a higher standard than that…

          2. And how did that megachurch come about? Are you inferring that Mark Driscoll came along and began pastoring a megachurch that already existed, and had nothing to do with the tremendous growth and success of that church? Or did the church come about because of his anointing and favor from God? I’m sure in your mind, Mark Driscoll did not give 18 years of his life to Mars Hill and lend anything to its success.

            But regarding the successful speaking engagements and books, people may have heard of him from the success of Mars Hill, but I doubt they continued to follow him because of it. He had something to offer – a way of speaking, a way of delivering the word of God that was able to penetrate and make a difference. You will never give him credit for this, because then you will be tossed out of your cult. That’s ok. Mark doesn’t need your approval.

          3. Be very careful with your slander. Knowingly making false statements can still lead you to a great deal of trouble, even if it is against a public figure.

            Mark Driscoll was cleared of accusations you are stating regarding the use of church funds.
            Be very careful of what you state sir. You may find yourself in a bevy of hot water.

            As for playing a shell game with donations to support other business ventures – this is another lie you are believing. Real Faith is a part of the Trinity Church. Every penny that is spent on either is accounted for, fully. You know nothing of what you speak. And you are buying into the dribble of the Manuelo’s and Chad Freese who have clearly lied.

          4. Be very careful with your slander. Knowingly making false statements
            can still lead you to a great deal of trouble, even if it is against a
            public figure.

            Yes, because fine honest upstanding people are prone to firing off law suits against those who post (potentially) false allegations against them in anonymous internet comment threads… /s

            This is honestly the most ridiculous comment of yours yet, and the most obvious attempt to scare Driscoll’s critics into silence. Once again, not a projection of strength by your part, and it’s not going to work anyway.

          5. I have slandered no one. Nor am I afraid of Driscoll.

            “Every penny that is spent on either is accounted for, fully.”

            really, and where can I get a copy of this accounting? Does it also include the “gift cards” that where used to pay interns at Trinity church?

            “you are buying into the dribble of the Manuelo’s and Chad Freese who have clearly lied.”

            And yet you provide no evidence that they have lied.

          6. What is wrong with gifting interns gift cards? Why is that an issue for you? It is not an issue for anyone at The Trinity Church, and it is not an issue with the interns who are honored to receive anything, as they expected nothing, like most interns.

            As for the Manuelo’s, check their history carefully. See who your throwing your trust behind. And as for Chad, he’s really not had much of anything concrete to say, just generalizations that can’t be proven in any way, and that make more claims about other people in the church than about Mark Driscoll.

          7. It’s an issue if you use the gift cards as a way of paying them that avoids your obligations to the IRS and the Social Security Administration.

          8. It’s also an issue if the cards were donated by people who thought they were going to be used to assist those in financial need (e.g. single mothers, unemployed, etc.)

          9. What “history” of the Manueles are you referring to? where can I find this “history”? More insinuations and innuendo but no actual claims or evidence.

            Chad Freese is the one who claimed Trinity church hired private investigators to follow the Manueles and he provided evidence of that as well. that is a pretty specific allegation and quite “provable.”

            You are the one making overly broad, non-specific claims and implications without providing any proof. Like you did about the Manueles in very comment I’m responding too.

          10. llindel doesn’t want to talk about the event that started all this–which was that a Driscoll daughter (aged 17) kissed a 15 YO Manuele son. And Mark completely lost his cool over this. *rolls eyes*

          11. It’s TAX EVASION. Giving the interns gift cards in exchange for work is wages, and as an employer, Driscoll is supposed to withhold federal and state income taxes.

            Kent Hovind tried to claim his “Dinosaur Adventure Land” (Pensacola version) was a ministry and his employees were “missionaries.” But they punched time cards and had vacation time. Hovind spent 8.5 years in federal prison for that.

            There is also an unproven assertion that the gift cards came from a women’s Christmas luncheon (?) where attendees were asked to bring gift cards that would be given to poorer women to help them out. Instead, the gift cards are being handed out to interns. I wonder if they’re taking those gift cards and cashing them in. I wonder if they’re taking them by to the Speedy Cash in South Scottsdale?

          12. Its not tax evasion if he gave interns a gift card as a gift. Interns do not earn any income, as in most intern positions in most places. Also, I know the person who collected the gift cards for the “poorer women to help them out”. Those gift cards were completely accounted for and were all directly donated. They did not go through the office, the Driscolls, or any of the interns. So whoever made this unproven assertion was absolutely trying to stir up trouble where none existed. These types of things are handled by a team of two or three and are strictly accounted for.

          13. Tax attorneys and accountants may differ with you. I know someone who keeps a close eye on strange tax issues like this, I may drop them a line to see what they think.

            And given that TTC and Mark Driscoll issue no reports and the attendees can’t get any data, let me just say that I ABSOLUTELY DOUBT YOU when you say that the cards were not accounted for properly. You want to prove it? Post it to the TTC website with full financials. But you (Mark?) won’t.

          14. Tax attorneys and accountants may differ with you. I know someone who keeps a close eye on strange tax issues like this, I may drop them a line to see what they think.

            And given that TTC and Mark Driscoll issue no reports and the attendees can’t get any data, let me just say that I ABSOLUTELY DOUBT YOU when you say that the cards were not accounted for properly. You want to prove it? Post it to the TTC website with full financials. But you (Mark?) won’t.

          15. One can’t help wondering if a gift card paid intern might be the only person who would have time to troll non-stop on this thread/site. Just saying …

          16. One can’t help wondering if a gift card paid intern might be the only person who would have time to troll non-stop on this thread/site. Just saying …

          17. I’m just going to point out that slander is verbal. Libel is written.

            Oh, and Ken hasn’t libeled Mark Driscoll.

          18. “Real Faith is a part of the Trinity Church.” Please provide documentation of this. The IRS 990 forms have them as two separate organizations.

        2. Yes, I’m aware Driscoll has written books. I’m also aware that he used church funds to pay an organization to buy those books in order to get them put on the NYT best-seller list.

          “And if he wisely invests money, and works hard and earns a good income (inside and outside the church), good for him! Why is that your
          concern?”

          Because that is not what Driscoll is doing. what he is doing is conning a bunch of people into giving him money and playing a shell game with those donations to support other business venture (“Real Faith”).

        3. Oh please. Mark’s only job as an adult has been to preach, mooch tithes off people who could barely afford to put food on their table as opposed to paying a bombastic preacher, and then write books on the church dime, and then promote those books using the church dime. (ResultSource, anyone?)

          As a result, Mark and Grace Driscoll live in a 4,519 square foot house near the intersection of E. Deer Valley Dr and Black Mountain Blvd. approximately 18 miles from The Trinity Church. The house was purchased for $839,000, and is currently valued at $1,189,000. It has four bedrooms and four baths. Mark tried to hide it under the name of a trust. I’m not sure how I managed to search out this information but the trustees are a certain Mark and Grace Driscoll. All found from public records because I am cheap.

          I’d also note that The Trinity Church is doing pretty well itself. In addition to the property on McDonald Dr, more recently TTC purchased an office condo at 14201 N Hayden road for a cool $740,000 in cash (let me repeat that IN CASH) on March 25, 2021. Given that the finances of TTC and “Mark Driscoll Ministries” and Mark himself appear to be very commingled, I believe this also inures to Mark himself. This is supposed to be the location for “Real Faith” his ministry, you know, the one where he has his eldest daughter Ashley ensconced as the executive director? The one where he did not put the *pay* of said executive director on its last filed Form 990? Nor note the relationship of same?

          1. Oh yeah, I didn’t note the signatory of the last Form 990–that’d be Randal Taylor, the Tulsa money man who got Driscoll the PPP loan at his Tulsa business address, the guy who is allowed anywhere and everywhere on the TTC campus. *He* knows Ashley is employed there and he is playing *games* to keep that information out of the public eye. We see you, Randal.

          2. So? None of this is illegal. Yet it does seem to cause your fur to rise. And that is simply not enough reason for him to do anything differently than what he chooses.

            You have really spent a lot of your time and energy focusing on Mark Driscoll. Apparently he wasn’t trying too hard to hide his home from anyone if he listed himself and Grace as Trustees. For the record, prudent people place their most valuable assets in a Trust. I know that my home is in a Trust. In this sue happy world where someone can drag you into court for little nothing more than an accusation, we should all take care to protect what we have. This is part of being a good steward of the assets God grants us to use in this life.

            All of the hate you have been living with is bound to stir up physical effects for you. Maya Angelou wrote about how unforgiveness and hatred can reflect in cancer through out the body. I pray that whoever/whatever caused you to be so hate filled and bent on destruction is cleansed and that you will be finally freed.

          3. “None of this is illegal.”

            As others have pointed out, you have a pretty low standard for what makes someone fit to be a christian minister.

            Do you plan on actually answering the many questions that have been asked of you about your claims here?

          4. Just because it’s not illegal doesn’t mean that it isn’t sleazy or scammy. You can babble on all you want, but until people can take a look at the books at The Trinity Church, nobody, absolutely NOBODY should trust anything you are saying. Period.

  8. Time for Driscoll and his stockpiled weapons to go far, far away. Authoritarian theocrats will crumble, as the truth always prevails.

  9. I honestly don’t know how this will all play out. Driscoll’s past responses (or lack of) have only shown his very large ego, no repentance, and continued verbal abuse of others, as well as deception. In light of his continued disregard for any responsibility of his past or present problems with other christians, I would be very surprised if he quits the ministry, repents, and gets a job hanging drywall. But we can hope and pray.

    At this point, it appears that he has succumbed to the temptation of riches, and perhaps a parallel can be made to Judas Iscariot. Perhaps he is a gifted speaker, organizer, or whatever, but there appears to be a severe lack of pastoral qualifications in his life.

    1. I doubt it is a question of whether Driscoll will or won’t resign because of the statement. it is a question of whether he will or won’t attempt to retaliate in some way.

    2. I doubt it is a question of whether Driscoll will or won’t resign because of the statement. it is a question of whether he will or won’t attempt to retaliate in some way.

    3. Why would he resign? This is all old news. Anyone in Phoenix who cares about his history in Seattle already knows it.

    4. Has there ever been a case where, short of jail time, a prominent conservative evangelical pastor has resigned in disgrace and never darkened the steps of a pulpit again? I can’t think of one. The best you can usually hope for is for them to fade into obscurity, like Robert Tilton, who is still posting the occasional video on YouTube for an audience of dozens.

      These people live in a bubble, and they will do everything they can to restore it should it burst. They believe they are indispensable when, in fact, they are completely disposable.

      1. Jerry Falwell Jr. although technically he wasn’t a minister, but close enough.

        I was going to say Jimmy Swaggart, but it turns out he did come back and is running a (much smaller) ministry these days.

        however, your point is taken, Driscoll is not an outlier.

        1. I would be astonished if Jerry Falwell Jr. isn’t back in some form of leadership role within the evangelical community once he’s done litigating his previous battles. He is completely unrepentant and the name recognition is simply too good for him to pass up for long.

          1. This is assuming that his lifestyle does not kill him first. Reports of health troubles have been made and his habits could kill him in short order.

      2. Actually, Bakker got jail time and he still came back. The only way these narcissists do not come back is when they are in the grave, unfortunately. Where these guys are ultimately headed there is no coming back from in the next life.

        1. Bakker’s not running a ministry. Mostly he is producing a “religious” show to sell crap (sort of a religious Alex Jones).

          Seems you can lie, steal, con, abuse children, bully others and still be “redeemed”, but have sex with another man, that’s the unpardonable sin.

          1. Ted Haggard came back and started a new church which I believe is still going. So that doesn’t necessarily get in the way of a comeback either.

          2. Ted Haggard did spring to mind, and yeah, he founded another church a couple of years after his shenanigans came to light. At least he had the self-awareness to admit he was bisexual…

    5. Has there ever been a case where, short of jail time, a prominent conservative evangelical pastor has resigned in disgrace and never darkened the steps of a pulpit again? I can’t think of one. The best you can usually hope for is for them to fade into obscurity, like Robert Tilton, who is still posting the occasional video on YouTube for an audience of dozens.

      These people live in a bubble, and they will do everything they can to restore it should it burst. They believe they are indispensable when, in fact, they are completely disposable.

      1. Driscoll is working his way back up to megacult megachurch status. Yeah, a bunch of people may have left with the news about the Scottsdale PD and the private investigator, but the parking lot yesterday was pretty darn full for both services. (But it was unclear whether a lot of people were staying for the 11 am service.)

        The thing you have to keep in mind is that megacults megachurches have to keep people coming in the front door to replace those slipping out the back door. I am *sure* Driscoll is doing that. He had a lot of out of state plates in his lot yesterday (mostly California, and it’s only a 5 hour drive from LA or San Diego). Schools are starting up this week (!) and into the middle of August. It’s going to be September 12 before it will become really clear whether Driscoll is replacing his leavers and has shrunk, or if he’s managed to bounce back.

        1. Oh my! Scottsdale PD and a private investigator? Surely that should drive people away! Geez. You should spend more time inside the church instead of outside picketing. Maybe then you could shed some of that hate your filled with. I will continue to pray for you… that you will find peace to replace the hate that fills your heart.

          1. Mirele has made it quite clear she has no intention of supporting an abusive con man like Driscoll.

            I think you are confusing “informed” with “hate.”

          2. What’s this? Is she your almighty goddess and you are her designated spokesperson for your I HATE MARK DRISCOLL CULT? I don’t think I have any confusion, Only hate can spew unfounded accusations at someone with the veracity and tenaciousness you all have shown.
            Yet after all this focus. All of this time devoted to hating him, you have nothing concrete. Nothing solid. Just general baseless accusations and finger pointing with nothing to back it up. Talk about a life wasted. What a shame,

          3. Oh I have. And everything there is hearsay. There is not one piece of valid evidence within any of those blogs or Manuele’s Youtube. I know Vince Manuele. I know Chad Freese. I know most, if not all of the people of the The Trinity Church that the articles are about or written by. And I caution you to take great care in who you listen to. Make sure you properly vet your source. If you did so, you would find great issues of the legal variety in more than one of their pasts. At least two of the others have serious mental health issues and need prayer, love, and healing, not condemnation.

            And remember that if I canvased a group of 6,000 people who knew you, I could probably come up with a few that would be willing to say something negative about you too. As for the 100 or so people who have left trinity church, I hope they are happy and receiving wonderful teaching where they have gone. I remain friends with many of them. And no one has suggested I can’t be. No one has suggested to me that any of them are toxic. In fact, I am friends with one of the couples that is called out in one of the articles specifically as being toxic, and this is well known within the church. Yet no one, least of all the Driscoll’s or any of the pastoral team, have ever suggested I shouldn’t associate with them.
            And I know that not everyone has chosen to leave because of these latest attacks. In fact, most have left because they prefer a smaller church and Trinity has outgrown them. But there is no drama in saying this, so that is left out of your dribble.

          4. I do take care to who I listen to. For example I’ve been following Warren’s blog for years. I know Warren is someone who does research the facts before speaking. And when he does make a mistake he is willing to admit it and correct it. Whereas you are just some person making a lot of noise but with no substance.

            Further, Vince Manuele, Chad Freese, Jolie Monea (and the others who have gone on record) are not spreading “hearsay” they are giving eye witness testimony. The claims you are making are “hearsay.” And you, (and the other Driscoll minions who have posted here) have yet to give any evidence that what they have said is false.

            Who are you claiming has “serious mental health issues” and how are you aware of that?

          5. You KNOW Warren does research before speaking? Really? Simply by stating Mark has no elders, he is wrong. And I don’t see any retractions. I have repeatedly seen statements referring to members of the church, and people being told who they could associate with, along with accusations of misallocation of church funds, when I know for a FACT that is not the truth. I have also seen accusations of Mark failing to properly disclose where any donations were going to be directed towards BEFORE the money is given, yet it he is always very forthright in budget discussions. If someone chooses not to listen, they can read it in the church news letter. And if there is something they don’t want to give towards, they can designate on an offering envelope what they want their offering or donation to go towards.
            So I just listed five subjects that Warren is massively incorrect on and yet there is no correction printed.

            Also, if he thoroughly researched his subjects, he would take care not to print the testimony of a convicted felon. But he has. I will leave you to do your own research to find that one too 🙂 And once that becomes clear, I would not be surprised to find the bulk if not all of this blog disappear.

            Eyewitness testimony only counts in the court of law under sworn testimony. Now… If you could get any of the three people above to provide a sworn testimony under penalty of perjury, that would be different. But I guarantee you they won’t.

            Now, on the other hand, I would be more than willing to do so.

            As for who has mental health issues, I will not divulge their names and embarrass them. I have pity on them, not hate.

          6. “Simply by stating Mark has no elders, he is wrong.”

            You are claiming there are elders for Trinity church? if so who are they? why aren’t they listed on the Org charts?

            “So I just listed five subjects that Warren is massively incorrect on and yet there is no correction printed.”

            No, you have made accusations by provided no evidence. Where as, aside from providing eye witness testimony, Warren (and others) have provided documents to support their claims as well.

            “when I know for a FACT that is not the truth.”

            Where is your evidence that these claims are not true?

            “Eyewitness testimony only counts in the court of law under sworn testimony.”

            that is incorrect. For example it counts here as well.

          7. The org chart you are referring to is a chart given to a a junior intern. This chart strictly lists the organizational roll-up within the church. The elders are for Mark to be accountable to. Not for the rest of the church. They are not part of the church organization, but fall within the relationship Mark has submitted to based on Biblical principles. This does not need to be included in any org chart. And I do not need to waste my time doing the work for the lazy who do not wish to see when the names they seek are written within the very articles they site as their proof. Just the previous answers I had to spoon feed you regarding who had absolved Mark of previous accusations.

            Regarding membership, I would simply challenge you right back to show me anything that proves there ARE members. You won’t find it, because there aren’t. There is also no structure established to vote someone in or out. Why? Because God decides who is in His kingdom. And as long as you are at The Trinity Church to learn and worship God, you are welcome.

            What makes one person’s claim of eye witness testimony valuable over another without their willingness to state in under risk of perjury? It’s simply hearsay. Even in this forum.

          8. Once again with the evasions.

            Who are these “elders”? What are their names? How do YOU know Driscoll is accountable to them? In what WAY is Driscoll accountable to them? (i.e. can these elders remove him as pastor of Trinity church?)

            “What makes one person’s claim of eye witness testimony valuable over
            another without their willingness to state in under risk of perjury?”

            When multiple people give testimony it is up to the listener/reader to evaluate the various testimony. However, personally, I give a lot of weight to those who are willing to be identified and respond to questions about their claims (as many of the people Warren, Roys, et al cite have done). Further, you have insinuated (again without actual evidence) that the people who have made claims about their experiences with Driscoll and at Trinity Church are not willing to swear to it under the penalty of perjury.

            And once again direct statements about what someone saw/experienced is not hearsay.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

          9. Hearsay is an out-of-court statement offered to prove the truth of whatever it asserts. Hearsay evidence is often inadmissible at trial. https://www.law.cornell.edu/search/searchResultsForm.html

            Sorry, but no. And most of those “testimonies” are regarding things that “they heard” or “they felt”, none of which is actual testimony of any sort.

            Of course its enough in the court of public opinion when the jury decided the outcome long before the supposed crime was ever committed.

          10. You are very good at reading definitions but not so good at understanding what you read.

            Direct statements of something that was observed is not hearsay. Hence the statements of Freese, Molina and Manuela about their interactions with Driscoll and other Trinity church members are not hearsay.

            so for example, if Chad Freese says “Brandon Anderson said to me he wanted to hire private investigators to follow Angelo Manuele”. That isn’t hearsay. If I where to say “Chad Freese says that Brandon Anderson said ….” then that would be hearsay. UNLESS I can cite a verifiable source (ex. a blog post where Freese published text messages between himself and Anderson) then that would not be hearsay that would be me quoting a reference. Are you starting to see the difference between a statement (or testimony) and hearsay?

            and once again:
            who are these elders you claim have authority over Driscoll? how do you know they have that authority? and exactly what is the authority they have (ex. could they remove Driscoll as a pastor of the church)?

          11. Did Freese publish the documentation from the phone company verifying the texts were real and not simply created on his own? If they were true in part, did he happen to include the part where the text said WHY? or was it simply implied?
            And your wrong, its all hearsay without the penalty of perjury. Its super easy to say anything you want about someone if you know your never going to be held accountable for it. Example: I saw you runover your neighbor’s dog yesterday.

            Now you can deny all you want. But of according to your definition, I said it, therefore its true until you prove otherwise.

          12. “Did Freese publish the documentation from the phone company verifying the texts were real and not simply created on his own?”

            No he did not. Nor did he need too. The text messages where used as further evidence to verify his statements. If Freese had made them up that would be fraud which would open him up to a civil suit. So the likelihood that he did that is pretty low. Do you have any evidence that those texts aren’t real? Can you cite any verifiable statements from Anderson denying that the texts are real? Note, you claiming Anderson said they aren’t real (without a verifiable citation) would be hearsay.

            “Example: I saw you runover your neighbor’s dog yesterday.”

            that isn’t hearsay. It is a lie, and a statement I can easily disprove since you have no idea who I am or where I live, so you couldn’t possibly have seen me.

            “But of according to your definition, I said it, therefore its true until you prove otherwise.”

            No, that isn’t what I said about the truth of someone’s statements. What I said was it is up to the reader to evaluate the truth of someone’s statements. And that I will generally believe what someone says is true, unless given a reason to doubt them. For example, if you were to make a statement that conflicts with something mirele says I’m more likely to believe mirele than you because you have a history of being deceptive in your posts.

          13. Mark Driscoll has overseers. The Bible clearly lays out the role of an overseer as being responsible for protecting the body from error, promote a Christ-centered environment, equipping and encouragement, and to provide good examples. Their job is not to involve themselves with the day to day activities of the church. Unlike the “elders” of Mars Hill who appear to have forgotten the church was not there to serve them but to serve God, the biblically correct overseer is not on a power trip.

            The overseers of The Trinity Church can easily see the body is receiving good and accurate teaching that doesn’t stray from the Word of God. They can tell by the growth, increased baptisms and joyful and Spirit filled congregation that we are being properly equipped and encouraged. And our overseers are men of excellent character who provide good examples of how we should live.

            If they should have a concern, their role is not to come to the body, but to the shepherd, as he is the one who is accountable. Therefore, there is no need for them to be listed on any org chart so that you can pester them. Their role is not to field your nasty phone calls and deal with your temper tantrums because you simply can’t stand that Mark Driscoll is still working hard for the Kingdom of God.

          14. “Mark Driscoll has overseers.”

            Originally you said “elders” not “overseers”. However once again:

            who are these “overseers”? how do you know they exist? What authority do they have over Driscoll?

          15. Says the man who did not repent and submit – you are a fool! Oh, and what book did you read that said a healthy church has a BOLO list, send out Cease and Desists, encourages breaking relationships with family, calls little girls nasty names. You are disqualified.

          16. Says the man who did not repent and submit – you are a fool! Oh, and what book did you read that said a healthy church has a BOLO list, send out Cease and Desists, encourages breaking relationships with family, calls little girls nasty names. You are disqualified.

          17. Mark has no elders.

            You and others have babbled about this, but you have not shown any proof or named any names.

            The only person who seems to have some sort of control over Mark Driscoll is his money guy, Randal Taylor, who lives in Tulsa. Did you know that Driscoll got PPP money for The Trinity Church? It was hard to find, but Randal Taylor had the money sent to his address in Tulsa. (Taylor also got PPP money for one Richard Roberts, former head of Oral Roberts University.)
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/dc0efc1200d6be7ee79dd67463cdfea2a5a517b39e52cd76b5fd9f4587c0f28a.png

            So pony it up, anonymous The Trinity Church attendee. Who are Mark’s elders and where is the proof of same?

          18. And your point is? Do you think this is some big gotcha? Really? There are fulltime employees at the church and those fulltime employees matter too. Or are you trying to say they don’t?

          19. “And your point is?”

            That you are not telling the truth when you claim that Driscoll has elders to whom he is accountable.

          20. Why did he apply through Randal Taylor in Tulsa? It’s as if he didn’t want anyone to know that he got PPP money. All the other churches I looked at (and I looked at MANY) put down an address that they either receive mail at or have a location. Randal Taylor is neither an address for The Trinity Church nor a location.

            I’d note that some of the churches were hard to find. For example, it took a combination of street address and Maricopa County Tax Assessor records to figure out that Dream City Church got its money under its legal name of The First Assembly of God of the City of Phoenix.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/16cf91a5015b33101a495905160a34a4a85eb67864ccedc6f9a6db74acca3e06.png

          21. So… you still to make any real point. If Randal Taylor does this processing for him, so what? It really wouldn’t matter who did filed it, you would still call it questionable. It doesn’t matter what Mark does or doesn’t do, as long as he is leading people to Christ, satan will always be hounding him. How does it feel to be a tool for evil instead of good? Or on second thought, maybe all of this attention you people stir up just brings more curious people in the door. Once they come in and hear the TRUTH spoken freely and frankly, they usually stay.

          22. It looks sleazy. But hey, since you’re either Mark Driscoll or someone close to Mark Driscoll (maybe even Randal Taylor?), you obviously don’t care.

            It’s shenanigans like this, for which I pay *more* taxes for your tax exemption, that make me want to tax the churches. At this moment, I’d settle for churches have to file the Form 990.

          23. You spend a lot of your free time investigating Mark. Do you ever look into the lives of any of the other people who make accusations against Mark… You know, to see if they may have an ulterior motive or only telling half-truths?

            I ask, because the person who started all of THIS round of Postcards from Phoenix – Angelo, who every believes is this fine upstanding man has been bullied by Mark has a couple of harassment charges against him from a little over a year ago. Yes, it looks like this fine, upstanding man even went so far as to use his vehicle to harass his victim. The charges are easy to find… right there in Maricopa county records. Along with several other arrest records that demonstrate reckless vehicular responsibility.

          24. “You know, to see if they may have an ulterior motive or only telling half-truths?”

            there is no need for mirele to do that. If there were any evidence that those speaking out against Driscoll where lying you’d be gleefully providing it. Yet you have provided no evidence at all to support your claims and innuendo.

          25. Hey Mark, you are a slanderer and gossip – yeah, we all heard you spread this gossip when you kicked Angelo out of the church. Your staff spread this hate to all the leaders of small groups. You and your “church” do opposition research on those you distrust – so creepy. Let me guess, all the men who left your church “were not leading their families well”. We all know your script, you need to come up with something new.

          26. Well at least we have found common ground… I am actually in agreement with churches paying taxes. Probably not for the same reason as you… but hey… I am willing to chalk this up as a win for both of us and leave it with that. But I dare ask… what if Randal Taylor is a Financial Overseer for Mark? Wouldn’t it make sense that he takes care of the financial dealings to make sure that everything is done appropriately so that Mark is not accused of wrong doing? As if any one would ever give him credit for clean and above board accounting …. you all are looking for problems where you admit there aren’t any right now!

          27. If Mark submitted TTC’s accounting to a Certified Public Accountant, then MAYBE I might believe they’re above board. But as of now, not even a chance.

          28. Wait, TTC received a PPE loan for growing by 227%? Maybe MD is the tool – TRUTH!

          29. We are waiting for evidence for all of you have claimed. In contrast to those who have written in the Postcards from Phoenix series, you have not disclosed who you are or what the source of your information is. You have offered no evidence and have falsely accused me of not attempting to contact Driscoll or the church. I have done so and have done so going back to 2014. I don’t on every occasion because I have never heard from Driscoll but to say I have never done so if flatly false.

            If you want to contest specific claims, you need to come out from the shadows and make your evidence known. Send me a budget showing the differentiation between TTC and Mark’s ministry. Send me a church document withe names of the elders. Send me the church bylaws. If things are transparent, surely no one will mind that.

          30. Not sure why it would be necessary but I would be willing to give sworn testimony. Again, I have nothing to hide and I’m not afraid to stand up against abuse publicly.

          31. Not sure why it would be necessary but I would be willing to give sworn testimony. Again, I have nothing to hide and I’m not afraid to stand up against abuse publicly.

          32. And you actually had nothing to say of any value but a lot of unproven finger pointing. So what would there be for you to attest to? That your relationship with your daughter is strained? Ok. That is truly sad. And I am sure it isn’t helping by publicly attacking her new in-laws. I don’t know her, but she seems like a sweet young lady. And to be publicly dragged through the mud like this by her own mother must be tearing her apart. If for no other reason than your daughter’s dignity and well-being, you should have thought twice about doing this.

            You have been well known throughout the church as someone with a temper and, shall we say, unusual character. My wife has told me about how you have unloaded on the the women at the bible study regarding your obvious eating disorder, and freely and openly, and may I add harshly, discuss your relationship and disappointments with your oldest daughter. When you say your not afraid to stand up against abuse publicly, did you ever think that YOU might be the person guilty of the abuse? I am sure that you haven’t because people like you are quite sure the world revolves around them and never feel they are responsible for anything. I understand that you are now a table lead at SBC. From what I gather, it will be best for those women if you deal with your issues with your daughters (notice the plurality of that word) and get a lot of help.

            Your husband seems like a nice man. I have met him a few times. I can understand why he has never relocated to Arizona, and continues to remain in Seattle most of the time. However, I feel sorry for your daughters who are then left to their own devices to deal with a mom who obviously does not respect them.

          33. Jolie has given specific details (including names) about her time at MH and TTC. Not vague innuendo like you have. Also, unlike you, she has actually responded to questions about her claims.

          34. llindel – Jolie is not standing behind a username, why don’t you step out of the shadows and put your real name out there if you believe in what you are saying and defending. Are you worried that you might be surveilled? Wait that wasn’t any of these hurt people that did that. If you are who I think you are, I doubt you will. 41 or is it 42, Godly and good men have agreed that Mark isn’t fit to be in the pulpit. What type of leader, religious or otherwise, doesn’t stop, pause, pray and consider that as well as all the others sharing their hurt. In a situation like this you can choose humility and work to understand the concerns or you can dig a deeper moat and build a bigger wall. At that point you are tipping towards a full on cult. Scottsdale, the Clearwater of the west. I hope that there can be healing and Mark restored to pulpit the right, Godly way, he has the potential to do (more) amazing things for the kingdom. So are you going to step out from behind llindel? You seem very confident, I would say man up but you have knowledge of women’s meetings so either you are a woman (don’t buy the wife thing) or it’s getting a little weird. If you think her husband is a nice man, maybe invite him for coffee?? It’s easy to talk about someone’s family anonymously, what if that happened to you or has it? There were a lot of people that were confident that the Titanic was unsinkable. God will have the final say and I think we are both confident in the outcome. If you are a man, you are weak, calling out a woman like this, in a forum like this. I pray you aren’t a leader of men, even if you don’t agree with how she did this you should NEVER attack someone like this.

          35. I feel sorry for your wife , clear heels and all. You are still disqualified.

          36. I’m wondering if “llindel” is just another name for “William Wallace II*” aka “Mark Driscoll”. Or one of the other “pastors” at Tater Tot Casserole oops, The Trinity Church.

          37. The name reminds me of the My Pillow guy.
            Speaking of people who unwaveringly and irrationally defend authoritarian narcissists.

          38. At this point I think it has to be him. This guy is a complete psycho underneath the very thin fake veneer he puts on when he steps up to the pulpit. The maturity of a five year old and the rage that is so typical of malignant narcissists. There is a good reason that Jesus called men with this character “sons of the Devil.”

          39. Trying this again… maybe you won’t try and block it this time

            Wow, that was a lot of unexpected anger towards me. Again, it would really help if I knew who you and your wife were so I could better understand where you are coming from. You are correct Chloe is very sweet and we adore Zac. Our prayer is that they are able to do ministry together in a church that doesn’t have toxic leadership. So, I will stand up for truth for them and others to get freedom from abuse. We just want them in a tov church instead of a toxic one. I’m not sure I would call it finger pointing, it’s just me telling my experience. I would agree that the only value it has in my mind is to show a pattern of behavior from MH to TTC and to stand with others that have had similar experiences over the years.

            “You have been well known throughout the church as someone with a temper and, shall we say, unusual character.”

            That is for sure news to me. I would love some examples of my temper and harshness. I’m fully willing to accept that I might be unusual. But that seemed like an attack on my character so I am unclear. Do I opening discuss struggles and where God has met me in those areas, of course. I always try to be as transparent as possible. I have never been told it comes across harsh but I’m certainly sorry if it ever did. You should also know that my oldest daughter edits all the things I write and teach on. We actually have a very good relationship. I am incredibly proud of her and have learned so much from her. I have only been reprimanded by one person over how I spoke positively about my oldest while teaching since this same person doesn’t approve of her life choices. To my knowledge I haven’t spoken negatively about any of my girls in women’s group. There is only one family in the church that would have some of this personal information on me, my girls and our family dynamics. However, good to be aware that women’s group at TTC is not a “safe space” to share. This also sheds some light on the “who you are” question. I would be the first to admit that I have made a lot of mistakes in parenting along the way and am so grateful for God’s grace and patience with me as I learn. I am incredibly blessed to have such a awesome husband and amazing daughters!! I have learned so much from my girls and they for sure call me out on stuff. I have lead a table at SBC and am willing to continue doing so if they ask. I am completely under the authority of the women’s ministry pastors there and submit to whatever they think is necessary for me to continue volunteering.

            My husband is an amazing man!! However, you should check your facts. My husband commutes to Seattle but lives here in AZ. Plus, we recently bought a building so he could headquarter here. Although it is difficult right now to balance speaking truth with our daughter still so involved and the hurt this is causing her, we are thinking big picture and about what is best for her future in ministry. I’m not sure how I disrespect my other daughters though. Always willing to learn how to be a better mom. 26 years and six +1 daughters and I’m sure I still have much to learn about being a mother and wife.

            Thank you for giving such a good example from chapter 4 of Scot McKnight’s book A Church Called Tov. Highly recommend giving it a read.

          40. “maybe you won’t try and block it this time”

            I think discus may have had a hiccup this morning and lost some posts rather than it being a deliberate action.

          41. Trying this again… why do you keep flagging my post? Are you that afraid of what I’m saying?
            Wow, that was a lot of unexpected anger towards me. Again, it would really help if I knew who you and your wife were so I could better understand where you are coming from. You are correct Chloe is very sweet and we adore Zac. Our prayer is that the are able to do ministry together in a church that doesn’t have toxic leadership. So, I will stand up for truth for them and others to get freedom from abuse. We just want them in a tov church instead of a toxic one. I’m not sure I would call it finger pointing, it’s just me telling my experience. I would agree that the only value it has in my mind is to show a pattern of behavior from MH to TTC and to stand with others that have had similar )experiences over the years.

            “You have been well known throughout the church as someone with a temper and, shall we say, unusual character.”

            That is for sure news to me. I would love some examples of my temper and harshness. I’m fully willing to accept that I might be unusual. But that seemed like an attack on my character so I am unclear. Do I opening discuss struggles and where God has met me in those areas, of course. I always try to be as transparent as possible. I have never been told it comes across harsh but I’m certainly sorry if it ever did. You should also know that my oldest daughter edits all the things I write and teach on. We actually have a very good relationship. I am incredibly proud of her and have learned so much from her. To my knowledge I never spoke poorly of any of my daughter’s at women’s. I have definitely shared stories of how awesome they are and how they each bring something different to our family. There is only one person who reprimanded me about how I spoke(positively) about my oldest and that was because she doesn’t approve of how she chooses to live. There is only one family in the church that would know this kind of information about my girls. Thanks for clearing up the “who you are” question. I actually share a lot less than your wife thinks but good to know she’s sharing personal information about me and my girls. Especially love the “obvious eating disorder part”… nothing like throwing in the typical body shaming women piece. I would be the first to admit that I have made a lot of mistakes in parenting along the way and am so grateful for God’s grace and patience with me as I learn. I am incredibly blessed to have such a awesome husband and amazing daughters!! I have learned so much from my girls and they for sure call me out on stuff. I have lead a table at SBC and am willing to continue doing so if they ask. I am completely under the authority of the women’s ministry pastors there and submit to whatever they think is necessary for me to continue volunteering.
            My husband is an amazing man!! However, you should check your facts. My husband commutes to Seattle but lives here in AZ. Plus, we recently bought a building so he could headquarter here. Although it is difficult right now to balance speaking truth with our daughter still so involved and the hurt this is causing her, we are thinking big picture and about what is best for her future in ministry. I’m not sure how I disrespect my other daughters though. Always willing to learn how to be a better mom. 26 years and six +1 daughters and I’m sure I still have much to learn about being a mother and wife.
            Thank you for giving such a good example from chapter 4 of Scot McKnight’s book A Church Called Tov. Highly recommend giving it a read.

          42. Hiding little MD stated above “Also, if he thoroughly researched his subjects, he would take care not to print the testimony of a convicted felon” which means the church justifies doing opposition research for those who oppose…..Hmmm, where have I heard that before (see cult)? If you do a little research, a person would not attend a church without elders. Why, so you don’t have Mark posting crap like this – He is and has been disqualified.

          43. 1. You claim to “know” me. Who are you? What is your real name? You do not even have the courage to use your name and let the world know who you are. Yet, you have lies throughout your comments and are attacking people consistently. You have a LOT of detailed “insider information” to just be someone who knows the church “leaders”. There is a high probability that either you are Mark or Mark is telling you what to write.

            Keyboard Warrior courage is very noble good Sir. I have read your comments on here and it sounds a lot like Mister William Wallace II himself, (aka Mark Driscoll).https://bit.ly/llindel-is-probably-mark-driscoll

            2. You also claim the I am not willing to sign a sworn statement under penalty of perjury. Considering I have already signed legal paperwork through my attorney due to Mark Driscoll & The Trinity Church sending me THREE Cease and Desist letters, I too would be more than willing to sign a sworn testimony. Would you like me to publicly publish the cease-and-desist letters so everyone can see the false accusations against me?

            3. If you know me so well, call me. Text me. Email me. If you are a “Real Man”, let’s have a face-to-face conversation. Meet me for coffee.

            4. As for the serious mental health issues comment…whom are you referring to? Don’t be a coward. You want to call everyone else out on here, especially victims of abuse. Go ahead, namedrop.

            5. In one of your adorable comment, you mention something about a convicted felon? Who is that?

            It is real easy for you to sit back and attack others on this platform, hiding behind a screen name. As I stated above, you lack the courage to be outright, truthful, and honest with your identity.

          44. “Would you like me to publicly publish the cease-and-desist letters so everyone can see the false accusations against me?”

            I would like you to publish those letters.

            Perhaps even send them to Warren if he is willing to make a post about them (as part of the “Postcards from the Edge” series).

          45. Apparently the only care you take is that they are saying whatever you want to hear. May God open your eyes and ears.

          46. I find it funny that you believe in god. Whose posts do you think your god (I’m assuming you are christian) would be more upset by, yours or mine?

          47. I’m just curious where I fall…legal issues or serious mental health issues? I’ve got nothing to hide and I’m assuming you are someone I know since you have been at the church so long and seem close to this situation.

          48. Of course. When all they have is “it’s all lies” eventually they just go silent.

          49. So you aren’t getting paid (not even gift cards?) to spread FUD about people speaking out against Driscoll and TTC?

          50. If you are telling the truth, why is it you can’t provide any details or evidence of this “truth”?

            You know, like the names of the elders (or is it “overseers” now) of Mark Driscoll? how you know who they are and what actual authority over Driscoll that they have?

            As for who pays me, my employer and my tenants. However that has nothing to do with my posting here.

          51. BWAHAHAHAHAHAH. This is so like Scientology. Back in the day, they thought us protesters were being paid by Eli Lilly. Nope, it came out of my pocket. Just like hitting the sidewalk at TTC. My hard earned money.

          52. Welcome to life. I have a job, some extracurricular activities, and a non-traditional family (elderly mom, partially disabled sibling) to take care of.

          53. Unfortunately, I suspect another sock puppet account will start posting in a couple of weeks.

          54. So true!! I am so exhausted by the passive-aggressive nature of these anonymous posts. I am always happy to answer any questions but if they are going to accuse me of lying or having a mental health problem the least they can do is be honest about who they are and provide evidence.

          55. I’m just curious where I fall…legal issues or serious mental health issues? I’ve got nothing to hide and I’m assuming you are someone I know since you have been at the church so long and seem close to this situation.

          56. You didn’t mention the money that Driscoll spent on hiring a very expensive Phoenix law firm to send cease and desist letters to two men. I notice that the two men took the letters into consideration and went ahead and talked to Julie Roys anyway.

            The only prayers I seek from you are that I continue to be in good enough health to hit the sidewalks at TTC on Sundays and other days, weather permitting.

          57. I’m not concerned about anything Mark Driscoll did that was completely within his rights and purview to do.

          58. Because the discussion is about the abuses of Driscoll and how he is unfit to be a minister. Doing immoral things (even if they are legal) is part of what makes him unfit.

          59. Again…. so? How do you know what he paid for any legal fees? You only know what the typical legal fee would be. But again, I would call this good stewardship.

            You don’t really know much of anything, yet you spout a lot.

          60. I know that The Trinity Church paid legal fees to Fennimore Craig because it is not likely that Fennimore Craig wrote a three-page cease and desist letter to two men as a pro bono exercise. I think that threatening people with lawsuits is NOT good stewardship. Here, let me share the first part of 1 Corinthians 6, which you may not have read recently:

            6 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6 But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers!

            7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters.

            (1 Cor 6:1-8, NIV)

            I always kept that in mind when I was dealing with Scientology because keeping oneself out of court matters whenever possible is a good thing. You have not lived until you’ve gotten letters threatening you with a lawsuit for posting a humorous rendition/parody of Scientology’s Operating Thetan III (aka the “Xenu story”). Everyone knows about it now because “South Park” broadcasted it in 2005.

          61. And every accusation from Trinity / Driscoll / Fennemore Craig in all THREE of my cease-and-desist letters was all false. Should I publish them for everyone to read themselves?

          62. For all reading, let it be clear that llindel has not provided any documentation for any statements made. Former members and leaders of The Trinity Church have gone on the record on this blog and to national media with their experience. Those experiences are consistent with each other and with the experiences of hundreds of former members and leaders at Mars Hill Church. An investigation at that church interviewed scores of people who told similar consistent stories about Mark Driscoll. Now people at The Trinity Church are telling stories consistent with what was experienced at Mars Hill. Llindel has not gone on the record by saying who he/she is, how he/she knows anything being claimed or providing any documentation such as church bylaws, church documents with names of elders, financial statements or a church budget. Yet he/she expects readers to believe one voice over hundreds of people who have publicly stood by their stories.

            As it relates to me, this person has said that I have not sought comment or sought Driscoll’s side of these stories. This is either willful lying or this person has been lied to by Mark Driscoll. Throughout my reporting on Mars Hill Church, I repeatedly contacted Mars Hill Church for comment and requests for their side of the many issues I reported on. SUtton Turner, Dave Bruskas and Justin Dean can verify that. Justin did respond to several requests but the most frequent response was to not respond. Here is Justin’s response to my requests about Result Source and Driscoll’s use of church money to promote Real Marriage to bestseller status:

            “Mr. Throckmorton,

            We have received your requests, and will not be responding with any comments now or in the future.

            Thank you, Justin Dean”

            Then in 2017, I wrote [email protected] this request for information.

            “Rev. Driscoll:

            In a recent appearance on Life Today, you told the hosts the following about the close of MHC.

            We had a governance war at the church that went eight years behind the scenes over who is in charge and how things play out. At the end we had 67 elders in 15 locations in five states, a large percentage of whom I had never met. They wanted to have independent local churches and we were one large church in many locations. So there was an eight-year battle that finally went public the last year and it was very painful for everyone involved, especially the wonderful, dear, generous, amazing people that served and gave and made it all happen.

            I have spoken with about a dozen former elders who do not remember desiring to have independent local churches. I am collecting their statements for a future article.

            However, perhaps, you did not mean to say that and so I am writing to make sure that your meaning is clear. It sounds like you are saying that the desire of the campus elders to have independent churches and the resulting conflict over the course of 8 years was the reason MHC eventually folded. Is that your position?

            Sincerely, Warren Throckmorton”

            I received no response to that email.

            And then here is the email I sent to The Trinity Church back in April asking about elders:

            “I have been informed by former staff and former attenders of The Trinity Church that your church does not have elders and that the current pastors are not elders. I am writing to ask if that is true and where I might obtain a copy of your church bylaws. I could not find a copy on your website.

            Sincerely, Warren Throckmorton

            PS – Is there a designated press contact for your church?”

            I never received a reply to that email.

            So let it be clear to readers that llindel claims to know what is going on at The Trinity Church but either lied to you about my contacts with Mars Hill and The Trinity Church or has been lied to. If this person is willing to lie about my willingness to seek information or willing to believe lies, then they might be willing to lie or spread misinformation about other aspects of The Trinity Church.

          63. It is either Mark or Randall or someone paid by one of the two. Whoever they are they are just an extremely annoying jerk which is par for the course. Thank God there will be no one like this ever in the New Jerusalem. From the End of Chapter 21 of The Revelation of the Real Jesus Christ: “Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.” This reminds me of some of the goons that that white-washed septic tank son of the Devil KP Yohannan sent here in an attempt to disrupt the comment section early on.

    6. Why would he resign? This is all old news. Anyone in Phoenix who cares about his history in Seattle already knows it.

      1. Actually a lot of people don’t pay attention, and those people I’m willing to cut some slack.

        But that guy who argued with me yesterday and said he’d known Driscoll since Seattle, oh he’s got knowledge and I bluntly told him he was in a cult.

        1. What “arguments” was he making?

          if people are still coming up to you when you protest, I’d recommend printing out copies of the statement from Christianity today and other claims and evidence against Driscoll. That way when the Driscoll supporters claim you “don’t know what you are talking about” you can show them.

          1. Do you really think people care what a rag like Christianity today has to say about anyone? Any magazine that aligns itself with the progressive, hateful, ungodly movement, condones abortion, tolerates what God clearly defines as an abomination, and focuses on tearing down instead of building up IS NOT WORTHY to represent Christians as Christ intended. The magazine has strayed so far from what Billy Graham intended it to be, that it is now only a hate filled rag driving people away from the true word of God. Be careful what you fill your mind with. Seeds take root.

          2. “Do you really think people care what a rag like Christianity today has to say about anyone?”

            Yes I do. However, the statement is from the former elders at Mars Hill not CT specifically (you know the ones who would be in a position to “absolve him” so once again I’ll ask who are you claiming “absolved” Driscoll).

          3. Christianity Today has only a minor circulation due to its progressive stance. I dare say Reverend Billy Graham would not agree with its current trend either. With over 150 million American’s identifying as Christian today, a circulation of 130K is nothing. By comparison, Mark Driscoll’s online sermons reach hundreds of thousands, sometimes even millions.

            The former elders have no power to absolve Mark. They have no authority of any sort. They are all just frustrated because they couldn’t hold a thriving church together once they infiltrated it with their betrayal, hate, control and bigotry.

          4. You’re being ridiculous. First of all, Christianity Today’s Statement of Faith is entirely within the orthodoxy of conservative Christianity. They believe the Bible is the inerrant and infallible Word of God, and they even believe in a literal Adam & Eve. Neither of which would feature in more than a handful of progressive Christian denominations’ faith statements.

            What next? Are you going to accuse Julie Roys of being a socialist?

            And then you attempt a ludicrous false equivalence between old-fashioned (and dying) print media and online distribution. I guess you couldn’t be honest and mention that Christianity Today reaches 4.5 million Christian leaders every month through their online presence because it invalidates your argument.

            Your comment merely confirms the near cult-like following Driscoll has cultivated. I guess you also believe the charges leveled against him at Mars Hill were also unfounded accusations. If not, has he ever fully repented of them, or did he deflect blame like he always does.

          5. Oh yes of course… anyone who defends Mark Driscoll is in a cult. Of course. Because no one could possibly be free thinking and follow his leadership, according to this hate group. Tell me, what’s it like to belong to a group that’s sole existence is to hate one man?

            And you would need to ask God if Mark repented of anything regarding Mars Hill. If he did anything wrong, I would expect that he has. But that is between him and God, not me. I wonder if anyone else from Mars Hill has fully repented for the things they did to the Driscolls and the church at large?

          6. Oh yes of course… anyone who defends Mark Driscoll is in a cult.

            Yeah, that’s not it at all.

            Tell me, what’s it like to belong to a group that’s sole existence is to hate one man?

            Again, not seeing much hate around here. Just justifiable criticism based on multiple eyewitness testimonies, and concern for those who have been caught up in Driscoll’s web and the harm he’s done to the reputation of the wider evangelical community. It’s not all Driscoll’s fault, sure, but the exodus of young people from evangelical and conservative churches is accelerating for a reason.

            I don’t hate Driscoll. I don’t know the man. But as a long time reader of Warren and Julie’s work, I know that I trust them a lot more than the sneers and mockery of a johnny-come-lately anonymous Driscoll defender. Your Trumpian rhetoric won’t work around here.

          7. Are you kidding me? There is nothing but hate on here! Anyone who devotes six years of their life harassing a man and his family can be called nothing but hate filled. Mirele was protesting at The Trinity Church from day one, and has NEVER stepped into the church or personally spoken to the Driscolls about what happened – then or now. None of you have! You simply take the word of a handful of people as being truth. We know how well that has played out in history, yet it keeps on repeating itself, doesn’t it.

            The Trinity Church is a spirit-filled, loving, thriving church full of young and old. I would not be surprised to find out that the young people being driven away from the evangelical and conservative churches is because of the hatefiled, rule based Pharisees I am seeing on this blog. Not because of Mark Driscoll or anything happening with in the doors of The Trinity Church.

          8. “or personally spoken to the Driscolls about what happened – then or now.”

            Are you claiming Driscoll is willing to speak to Mirele or Warren or Julie or anyone else who is reporting on his actions?

            I’m pretty sure the Warren or Julie would be quite happy to sit down with Driscoll to discuss these issues. Feel free to forward their contact info to Driscoll so he can arrange the meeting.

          9. Oh I doubt either of them are worthy of Mark Driscoll’s time now that they have spent years flogging him in the public square of the world wide web with never the slightest thought to there being a second side to anything. If they did, they surely could have contacted him. He hasn’t exactly been hiding from their view. Both have known exactly where to find him all along. And yet neither bothered to reach out and speak to him. As a “good” investigative journalist would do.

          10. how do you know none of them has tried to reach out to Driscoll? Warren attempted to contact several people involved in the Mars Hill Debacle (some even responded, but not Driscoll).

            Further, Driscoll has published “guildelines” about not engaging with detractors.

          11. This person knows or should know that I was told in 2016 that if I came on the property, I would be arrested for trespassing. So whatever they’re saying is nonsense. You can find me out on the sidewalk, tyvm.

          12. I can’t come on The Trinity Church’s property, or the Scottsdale PD will arrest me for trespassing. Period, end of story.

          13. You have no idea what you are talking about. I contacted Mars Hill numerous times and every time Justin Dean replied I cited what he said. Driscoll was always above it all and would never talk to me.

          14. A “good” disqualified pastor would step down and leave the valley and invite reconciliation.

          15. The reason I have never stepped into The Trinity Church is because I was told that I would have the cops called on me and be cited for trespassing way back in 2016. I have always been open to having Mark Driscoll come out to the sidewalk and talk with me. Or Grace Driscoll. I waved and called out to her once back in 2016, when she was still walking in through the front entrance and associating with the hoi polloi.

            We could maybe talk about Real Marriage. Not about how he hired Result Source to game the NYTimes bestseller lists, but about how Mark sees Grace. Pages 11-12 in the book are instructive.
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2ff942e26931de814326fe3f1215ca391574303e1f490057c2098ef1a39584a0.jpg
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8910ce8def123120472687f9315d63174bdd3eb8ea5caf435c872555e2e41702.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0d0b9fbe94fe38d54993f7a5e1ffcc14b3f4f66a5aa22d1415b5550c98c57a51.jpg

            This is fairly horrifying. First he browbeat Grace for cutting her “sexy” long hair into a mom cut, when she was about to give birth to their first child. Then he had one of his “dreams,” and then attacked Grace again for being “unfaithful” before their marriage and telling her (a heavily pregnant woman, pregnant with HIS child) that he wouldn’t have married her because of her sin.

            At no point does he apologize for being a horrible human being. Instead, he thinks he’s right.

            So yeah, I’d love to talk to Mark down at the sidewalk. If Grace came down, I’d tell her bluntly that she’s being abused and she needs to get away from her abuser.

            Or you, TTC attendee (there are no members), you could come talk to me, if you’re not afraid. I mean, seriously, I’m a fat, white, middle-aged woman. Unlike people at TTC, I don’t conceal carry. I do have a GoPro and that is for my protection.

            That said, you lied when you said I haven’t entered the building. You forgot to mention that I can’t go on the property or the Scottsdale PD will arrest me for trespassing. And unlike you, I have a responsible job where an arrest record will get me *canned*. So no, I won’t be coming on The Trinity Church’s property. I picketed Scientology during the ’90s and ’00s and stayed on the sidewalks during that time. It will be the same here.

          16. Been involved in church’s and para churches all my life – never seen this crap go on in spirit filled, loving, thriving churches – ever. Maybe you should look in the mirror and see just how fallen you are. Disqualified 6 pound 5 ounce baby MD.

          17. You’re being ridiculous. First of all, Christianity Today’s Statement of Faith is entirely within the orthodoxy of conservative Christianity. They believe the Bible is the inerrant and infallible Word of God, and they even believe in a literal Adam & Eve. Neither of which would feature in more than a handful of progressive Christian denominations’ faith statements.

            What next? Are you going to accuse Julie Roys of being a socialist?

            And then you attempt a ludicrous false equivalence between old-fashioned (and dying) print media and online distribution. I guess you couldn’t be honest and mention that Christianity Today reaches 4.5 million Christian leaders every month through their online presence because it invalidates your argument.

            Your comment merely confirms the near cult-like following Driscoll has cultivated. I guess you also believe the charges leveled against him at Mars Hill were also unfounded accusations. If not, has he ever fully repented of them, or did he deflect blame like he always does.

          18. I reread it I still don’t see it. So perhaps you can simply state it directly in a format like this:

            “_______________ absolved Mark Driscoll of ________________ on this date” and perhaps a link to where this person did that so I can read it for myself.

          19. Those charges were dismissed by the Board of Advisors and Accountability.

            /2014/08/21/former-mars-hill-church-pastors-bring-formal-charges-against-mark-driscoll/

            Begins on line 7 and continues on line 8.

          20. To be clear you are claiming the Mars Hill Board of Advisors and Accountability has “absolved” Mark Driscoll of all charges that were brought against him? Just the charges brought by David Kraft? something else? (if the latter, please explain).

          21. No they were not dismissed. There was a disagreement between the Board of Elders who investigated the charges and the Board of Advisors and Accountability about what to do about them but they were not dismissed. Again, you are either lying or you have been lied to and are spreading lies.

        2. The people not paying attention: I have been assured that it is entirely reasonable for people to devote less care to selecting a church and pastor than they would selecting a plumber. It seems to me an odd set of priorities, but I’m not an Evangelical.

          1. choosing the wrong church only effects your soul. choosing the wrong plumber can effect your property value.

        3. Bless you for your “slack” Mirele. I’m sure someone might appreciate it. But trust me, we all see you out there. And most of us just pray for you. The rest pity you for your hate filled and wasted life while we go on and enjoy hearing the Word of God delivered to us every Sunday, and fellowship with the other believers and and friends inside and outside the walls of The Trinity Church.

          1. Another Driscollite jerk comes on to trash the site. Time to block another troll. When will these guys actually read their own bibles for themselves? There is nothing there that suggests being rude is next to godliness. Just the opposite actually…

          2. An internet troll is someone who makes intentionally inflammatory, rude, or upsetting statements online to elicit strong emotional responses in people or to steer the conversation off-topic. I have not made any attempt to steer the conversation off topic. And if I upset you, too bad. A site that is set up with the sole intention of trashing a good man is a site worth trashing, but I have not done so…. I have merely trashed the idea of someone spending their leisure time trashing a man they have never met, merely based on the words of other people they have never met, without considering their possible agenda or own desires. The Bible clearly tells us that if we are unhappy in the church, we are to leave without grumbling. But all of these people are doing far more than grumbling. They are creating lies, and fulfilling satan’s agenda of preventing people from hearing the word of God. Do you think anyone reads any of the posts that throckmorton, mirele, or Julie Roys have posted, and were won over by to the Kingdom of God by what they read there? Heck no! They surely took one look and said they wanted none of that! Their sinful portrayal is that it is no different than the rest of the world. And while we are all sinners, those who wait with baited breath to cast stones are usually the worst among us all. So I dare any of you to look into the closets of those three….

          3. “I have not made any attempt to steer the conversation off topic.”

            yes you have. You have repeatedly made unsubstantiated claims (and implications), when questioned about your sources or asked for more details you deflect with name calling and insinuations of ulterior motives on the part of the posters.

          4. You know, you’ve not *lived* until you have a cult plaster your neighborhood with flyers that have your picture on them and say “RELIGIOUS BIGOT” underneath. (That backfired. I ended up on the radio as a result.)

            You’ve also not lived until you’ve had your home picketed by the local Scientologists.

            And you’ve also not lived until you’ve had a discussion with your father (who lived in another state) about what to do if Scientologists came to picket his house. He was actually concerned that his neighbors, who were armed, might shoot protesters. He was less worried about my mother, who was hard of hearing and would never know what was going on out front.

            So yeah, I’ve been there, anonymous The Trinity Church attendee. I KNOW what it’s like to have a notorious space alien cult all up in my business.

            I’d also note that I’m not preaching the Gospel (I’ll leave that to experts) but warning people about a cult leader, one Mark Driscoll.

          5. So you have been hurt by scientologist. And conditioned by your father to hate all churches because of it. Well for that I am very sorry. So now I really know how to pray for you. I will pray that God will heal you from the pain and memories of all that you have lived through and been hurt by. Mark Driscoll didn’t do this to you. And Mark is not a cult leader running a cult. He is controversial. Definitely. But so was Jesus.

          6. Except Jesus was “controversial” because he wanted to help others. Driscoll is controversial because he is helping himself.

          7. Except Jesus was “controversial” because he wanted to help others. Driscoll is controversial because he is helping himself.

          8. For the record, I inserted myself into the Scientology issue because their lawyers showed up on Usenet to shut down our discussion of their Super Secret Sacred Scriptures. I have never been in a Scientology building, and I’ve protested dozens of times in front of many different Scientology orgs from coast to coast. You may note the similarity with how I’m handling Mark Driscoll and The Trinity Church, on the sidewalk and not entering, because I was informed back in 2016 that I would be arrested for trespassing if I did so. Driscoll was unwilling to talk to me then and nothing has changed since then.**

            As for my late father, he was a churchgoer for many years and he had a hard time understanding why I would picket a “church” of Scientology. (It took a great deal of explaining what Scientology was about.) So he was NOT NOT NOT a church hater. He thought I was a bit weird for going after Scn as he didn’t get the free speech aspect. So you will get the name of my father out of your mouth. He was a good man, he raised his daughters to be able to support ourselves and he died happy knowing that I could do just that.

            That said, he grew up in east central Oklahoma (yeah, Oral Roberts country) and he observed the 1930s and 1940s religious scams of preachers who shook down poor sharecroppers for what little cash money that came in. He rather preferred the LCMS as an adult to the many quasi-Pentecostal camp meetings and churches he went to as a child, in large part because the money was accounted for.

            I’m just going to remind you again that nobody can see the books of TTC, and that the Form 990 for “Mark Driscoll Ministries” is missing the name and salary of Ashley Driscoll, who is the executive director. There are some other things that would need to be changed in the 990 to make it accurate. But yeah, so not surprised, Mark and Randal are opaque on this as well.

          9. So you have been hurt by scientologist. And conditioned by your father to hate all churches because of it. Well for that I am very sorry. So now I really know how to pray for you. I will pray that God will heal you from the pain and memories of all that you have lived through and been hurt by. Mark Driscoll didn’t do this to you. And Mark is not a cult leader running a cult. He is controversial. Definitely. But so was Jesus.

          10. If you pray for me, pray that I stay the course and that I don’t get heatstroke in summer or excessively cold in winter. Also, my life is hardly hate filled and wasted. I have a very good job providing valuable technical services for a well-known corporation. I spend time with my elderly mother (had dinner with her, a sibling and a nephew tonight, for example). I have a lot of hobbies. And I really, really, REALLY want to go back to Japan.

            I also take pride in the fact that me and a lot of other people who you would consider crazy took up protesting against Scientology circa 1995 and kept it up until into the early ’10s. Back in the ’90s, people were afraid of Scientology because they had a bottomless legal warchest and were happy to sue. But as they lost cases and realized they could not sue anyone who didn’t have a connection to them (as us crazy free speech activists didn’t).

            Then other people, like comedians, figured out that Scientology was *funny*, Tom Cruise jumping on a couch was *funny*, Tom Cruise talking about Scientology with a cheesy “Mission Impossible” soundalike soundtrack behind him was *funny*. The result was that Scientology became the butt of jokes and the world found out about Xenu from South Park. One of my older friends (aged 78) is hoping he will live long enough to see Scientology laughed out of existence. Our biggest success is that we don’t have to do this anymore, not since the press stopped being afraid of Scientology and not since people like actor Leah Remini publicly and loudly left Scientology.

            But Scientology is still not completely done–there are families separated because Scientology members have been told to disconnect to “save their eternity.” And THAT, anonymous The Trinity Church attendee, sounds awfully like Mark Driscoll telling his adult married children to cut off their in-laws. The same is true for assistant pastor Brandon Anderson, who has also disconnected from his family.

            In short, Driscoll is taking his instructions from the Book of Bad Cult Leader Tactics (by David Miscavige) and gee, why would an old hand at picketing Scientology miss going out and telling you all that you’re in a cult, Mark Driscoll is a cult leader, and you need to turn around and get out now.

            None of this is about religious dogma. It’s all about behavior. Mark Driscoll has been and continues to be an awful person and my goal is to make sure that people know he’s not a good guy. There are plenty of other churches to go to in Scottsdale. I triple dog dare you to go to one of them!

    1. Followers of Driscoll over the years have one thing in common: all of them fail to justify Driscoll’s documented record of fraud and abuse. Their attempts to distract, derail, and obfuscate with lies and deception is all they have to offer the world.

      1. There is no documented record of fraud and abuse. There is a documented record of accusations of fraud and accusations of abuse. But all of those have been meritless. Mark has not been found guilty of anything criminal. If Mark were not a public figure, you would be sued for your slander. One day, you may find yourself in the same boat – falsely accused of things you didn’t do. When that happens, may God have mercy on you. Unlike you have given to Pastor Driscoll.

      2. There is no documented record of fraud and abuse. There is a documented record of accusations of fraud and accusations of abuse. But all of those have been meritless. Mark has not been found guilty of anything criminal. If Mark were not a public figure, you would be sued for your slander. One day, you may find yourself in the same boat – falsely accused of things you didn’t do. When that happens, may God have mercy on you. Unlike you have given to Pastor Driscoll.

        1. Mark has not been found guilty of anything criminal.

          Now that is setting a bar so low you can trip over it…

          If your standard for a pastor is that they haven’t been convicted of a criminal offense in a court of law, then you have rendered all definitions of Christian morality meaningless.

          1. That is not my standard for a pastor. That is my response to the people (like you) saying Mark should be placed behind bars. Keep up.

          2. The only person talking about prison, jail, courts, crime, prosecution or convictions on this thread is you!!

            It’s an easy dodge. Move the goalposts to avoid addressing the actual misbehaviour, then attack people for things they never said. For all your bluster, your confidence in your defense of Driscoll seems curiously lacking.

          3. I would say this isn’t a case of Tacitus’ “short memory” but more a case of your lack of reading comprehension. The quote you cited does not say Driscoll should be jailed.

          4. Not really. Its you trying to pull strings and take something specific and build a case where there is nothing. You stated: “The only person talking about prison, jail, courts, crime, prosecution or convictions on this thread is you!!” I proved you wrong. I know you don’t like that. Simply too bad really.

          5. No you didn’t prove me wrong at all. ken was absolutely correct. I only included the “short of jail time” as a caveat to my overall point, since when a pastor does something that warrants jailtime, that’s typically the point of no return for pastors, though as others have pointed out, even that is not always true.

            Seems pretty clear what I meant, especially given I was referring to the departure of Driscoll from Mars Hill only for him to popup with a new church a few months later. That you chose to misinterpret and misrepresent my comment speaks more to your state of mind and intensions than anything else.

        2. Oh please, SPARE ME.

          He tried to game the NYTimes bestseller list by hiring a firm, ResultSource, to buy up copies of Real Marriage and make it look organic, like a real bestseller.

          Here’s World Publishing (a conservative media outlet) on the scandal:
          https://wng.org/sift/unreal-sales-for-driscolls-real-marriage-1617422429

          Here’s the Los Angeles Times on the scandal:
          https://www.latimes.com/books/jacketcopy/la-et-jc-pastor-contract-resultsource-bestseller-lists-20140305-story.html

          And a quote from the LA Times:

          The church paid an estimated $210,000 to ResultSource to make “Real Marriage” a bestseller, according to a document obtained by World Magazine, a Christian periodical. Warren Cole Smith writes in World that the magazine obtained an agreement between ResultSource and Driscoll’s Mars Hill Church that was signed by representatives of both in October 2011.

          According to the article, the contract was for ResultSource “to conduct a bestseller campaign for your book, ‘Real Marriage’ on the week of January 2, 2012. The bestseller campaign is intended to place ‘Real Marriage’ on the New York Times bestseller list for the Advice How-to list.”

          “Real Marriage” topped the New York Times’ hardcover advice bestseller list on Jan. 22, 2012. The following week, it was gone.

          Driscoll used $210,000 worth of Mars Hill money to pay this outfit to do this. That was theft of church property, private inurement to Mark Driscoll, a fraud on the New York Times…do I need to go on?

          This is the guy you follow, the same guy who browbeat Grace in Real Marriage about her cutting her hair, and then told her when she was pregnant with Ashley that he would have never married her had he known she had premarital sex. This is the disgusting sleaze you would have us give a pass to. NOPE.

          1. I don’t really see how this is fraud. In most instances this is known as advertisement.

          2. It is fraud because he paid an organization to get his book on the NYT best-seller list by misrepresenting actual interest in his book.

        3. So a pastor does not have a higher bar/higher standard when plagiarizing other authors (docemented)? How about buying books for a Best Sellers list – all trickery and deceit (documented). Everything is documented – can you read? I thought you read a book every day!

  10. There’s some interesting names on that list. I noted a few who were very pro-Driscoll, even at the end of Mars Hill.

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