Postcards from Phoenix: When Family Ties are Tested

In an earlier postcard, we heard from a young man who felt his family loyalties were tested by his employment at The Trinity Church. He felt he had to choose between his parents and loyalty to the leadership of the church. He chose his parents.

In this Postcard from Phoenix, Jolie Monea describes a similar situation. She feels estranged from her daughter (married to Zac Driscoll) because Jolie maintains relationships with people who have left The Trinity Church and have expressed their views publicly.

Church should not divide families. In fact, it seems like one of those red flags Julie describes when a church influences members to cut off family members when they aren’t sufficiently loyal or deferential to the leaders. I hope that the upshot of this situation is a restoration of family relationships and that all can get into a church which facilitates family ties rather than weakens them.

Warren-

I have been thinking about writing out my story for a while now but every time I sit down to organize my words, I am flooded with memories both good and bad from the last 8 years.  This postcard gives me the opportunity to pull back the curtain a little bit and look at my time at Mars Hill and Trinity.  Although there are many example’s I could give I am just going to recount one experience for this postcard.  Hopefully it will help me begin to untangle all the other things I have experienced and witnessed over the years. I also hope it will shine some light on the bigger issue of the continued patterns of abuse that happened behind the scenes at Mars Hill and are now happening a bit more openly at Trinity.

It would probably help for context to give a little background.  Our family began attending Mars Hill at the end of 2012 during a difficult season for us.  Our kids weren’t connecting at the church we had been attending and our marriage was struggling.  Eventually we made the decision to transition, as a family, to Mars Hill Bellevue and Shoreline.  We quickly got connected and began serving.  Our children also attended the same school as the Driscoll kids and became fast friends.  We cherished the friends we met at Mars Hill and loved serving as a family.  We enjoyed the music and the preaching, but the shift and transformation that God had made in our family was what we were most thankful for during this time.

So, when Mark stepped down and we realized that they would be moving we began to pray about making the move with them.  Fast forward to God bringing us to Arizona the summer of 2015.  It was never our intention to be employed by the church or even to have any large role in their ministry.  We simply felt called to move and be supportive of people that we considered friends.  Although, I was never employed by the church, I spent countless hours volunteering with the creative team and women’s ministry.  My husband volunteered with managing the offerings and my children volunteered in kid’s ministry.  As a family, Trinity was like our second home.  As time went on, I became more involved in leadership with women’s ministry, even to the point of doing some writing and a small amount of teaching.  One of our older daughters became part time staff in the children’s ministries department, and our younger two daughters became Junior interns.

Looking back over the years, there were many things that gave us pause. However, because of our close ties with the Driscoll family we ignored many red flags.  During the summer of 2020, God began to open our eyes wider to these red flags. One big concern was the fact that there are no local elders. That same summer I made the decision to follow an opportunity to attend and lead in women’s ministry at another local church where a close friend was teaching a class.  Although, this is a story for another time, I bring it up because it is when I first noticed a definite shift in how I was treated at Trinity especially by Mark’s wife, Grace.  We also started noticing a slight change in how our families interacted.

By December of 2020, there were just too many red flags that my husband, myself and our two younger daughters were seeing to continue serving and attending Trinity.  We told our older daughter, who was and is on staff, a few of our main concerns and decided to quietly leave with our younger two girls and start attending the church I had been getting involved with over the past fall.  All of this seemed fairly simple to us.  Our intention was to express some concerns but not to cause any sort of a vocal problem.  You might be thinking to yourself, no big deal, people switch churches all the time.  It is true people feel called to switch churches for many different reasons, and it’s not a big deal.  In my ignorance of how much the situation had escalated, I thought we could make the quiet transition without too much of an issue.

Before I share the event in February that lead to this postcard, I need to give you a critical piece of the puzzle.  Our daughter has been in a relationship with one of the Driscoll’s sons for the past seven years, and they were married this past March.  During the months of January and February, I had been in the church parking lot on several occasions to pick up my daughter or drop wedding related things off.  I never ventured past the parking lot, but I also never got the impression that I wasn’t welcome.  A dear friend of mine hosted a bridal shower that Grace, her girls and many other Trinity people and staff attended.  It was clear at this time that there was tension, but at no time was I told that I was considered “unsafe” or a problem.
The only message we received after leaving Trinity was a simple text from Mark letting us know that he approved of our new church.  So, when I decided to go to Trinity on a Wednesday morning two weeks before the wedding, I had no idea what would come next.   The flower girl for the wedding is the daughter of a close friend of mine.  Since my friend was a table lead for women’s ministry, her daughter attended kid’s ministry, and my daughter worked on Wednesdays, it was the perfect opportunity for the flower girl to try on her dress so we could all see it.

My plan was to bring the dress and meet them at church early so I would not disrupt anything going on in women’s ministry that morning.  I thought maybe I would get the chance to say hello to a few friends but leave before things got started.  I think most people would describe me as non-conflict oriented and harmless, but for some reason that morning I was viewed as a threat.  I met my friend and daughter in the parking lot and began walking towards the main building to use the bathroom.  I started noticing that I was being watched.  I dismissed it as people being surprised to see me.  As soon as I walked in the door, I was asked by campus pastor Brandon Anderson to step outside so he could talk to me.  It might be important to note here that I have known Brandon’s family since I was in high school.  We attended the same church growing up and I had dated his cousin.  I genuinely thought Brandon wanted to catch up and see how we were doing at our new church.  I was completely taken off guard when he was dismissive and rude.  He asked why I was there and how long I planned on staying.  I let him know I was only there for the flower girl to try on her dress and maybe say hello to a few people.  It was at that point that he told me it would be better if I left because they were taping, and he didn’t want a problem.  I was completely shocked and speechless, trying to figure out what was happening.  I went back inside, made sure the dress fit, hugged my friend and said good-bye to my daughter.  It was at that point I noticed John Welnick (Mark’s assistant) watching me during these interactions.  As I walked out the door, completely rattled, I noticed John follow me out and watch me walk to my car and drive off campus.  I quickly called my husband to tell him what had happened.  By the time I returned home I was in tears and confused on many levels. Questions were flooding my thoughts. Why had I been asked to leave?  Why didn’t anyone stop it or say something? What had I done that was so offensive?

Later, one of my older daughter’s saw my face and knew something was wrong.  As I relayed the story, she texted her sister on Trinity church staff to find out what had happened and was met with an unwillingness to discuss the situation.  Moments later my husband received a phone call from our future son-in-law to inform him that there had been a situation.  He informed my husband that they were just taking precautions since they didn’t know why I was at church.  My husband questioned the church by-line of “opening our Bibles to learn and our lives to love” if they were going to only allow certain people to attend on a Wednesday morning or even be on the church campus.  He then said that he would like both John and Brandon to call him with an explanation and apology.  No phone call was made by John, however, Brandon did call a day later with a confusing explanation of it being a mistake because he was stressed and overwhelmed. At that point, he did offer an apology.  My husband questioned why I would be considered a threat or problem, and he received no explanation.

Two weeks later at the wedding the shift in how people from Trinity treated us was almost comical.  Hugs and “we love you and your family” coming from everyone including the Driscolls. It felt completely fake and done for show.  Again, there was no mention of us being unsafe or dangerous people.  I have asked for an explanation on what I could have possibly done that lead to me being asked to leave campus and have still not received any valid reason to why I was asked to leave.

Since then, I have taken the time to invite people into our home, listen to their stories of hurt and abuse and do my best to love them and stand with them.  Because of our choice to publicly stand with the hurting and open up our home to people, our home is now considered unsafe by The Trinity Church. Just for being seen with a person who left the church, I was told I was unsafe by one of the Driscolls. This has had a damaging effect on our relationship with our daughter and son-in-law. Now they seem unwilling to come to our home or even meet with us at this point.  Unfortunately, this has also had an effect on their relationship with our 5 other daughters.  I still struggle to understand how opening our home to love people and walk in obedience to Jesus leads to this type of treatment.  I want to be the type of person that walks alongside people in love and stands up for truth especially in cases of abuse and hurt. I believe this is the role of the local church and in turn our role as the body of Christ.   I believe forgiveness is essential, but I don’t believe that means we stay silent about injustice.  Sadly, in listening to people share their stories we also learned of the hurtful and untrue things that Mark and Grace have been telling people about us over the years-also a story for another time.  Pulling back the curtain to see that the teaching (although not always biblically based) doesn’t match the personal life or true character of Mark and Grace.

Although, I have much to still untangle and share about the past eight years, I think it’s these true stories of people’s experiences that show the character, exclusivity and pattern of abuse that begin to paint a picture of a toxic church culture instead of a loving church culture.  I hope others will also have the courage to come forward and share their experiences.  Together we help others feel heard and less alone.  I heard a couple of comments from the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast from Daniel Silliman and Kate Shellnut that really resonated with me.  “The silence [to victims] feels like church wide consent” Kate Shellnut took it a bit further with a quote from Ted Olsen, “When someone does something wrong that hurts, when you find out that people knew and didn’t say anything that hurts worse.”

I am aware that sharing this story, continuing to stand with others, and continuing to share more parts of my story will invite criticism and further family conflict.  However, it is important to me to stand up to bullies, focus on what God is asking of me, and trust Him to work the rest out.  My heart and prayers are for healing and restoration for those that are hurt and broken.  I desire for people to learn the truth and understand that this is not how a healthy Jesus centered church treats people.  My hope is for people to move forward in a healthy church that shines the light and love of Jesus to those in and outside of the Church.  The Church should be a place where people feel loved and welcomed, not controlled, abused and shunned.  We are to be the example of supernatural unity and what it looks like to truly love our neighbor.  There should be no difference between what happens behind closed doors and what is preached from the pulpit.

I would also like to take this opportunity to ask a few questions of all those that have said we should be quiet; that calling out the “flaws” of pastors isn’t biblical.  Is it Christ-like to stand with the hurting?  Is it Christ-like to call out religious abuse?  Would you come forward and speak against physical abuse or abuse against a woman or child?  I want to be clear that I believe it is biblical and Christ-like to forgive, love, pray for and call out abusive behavior in the church. We are to shine light in the darkness.  We are to stand with and love the broken and hurting.  No one should have to show their bruises to prove that they’ve been abused.  Psychological, emotional and spiritual abuse are just as damaging as physical abuse.  This type of abuse from the church causes deep soul damage.  The Church should not be silent on these issues especially when it is happening at the hands of those in leadership.  When we are honest about what happens in the church and don’t cover up abuse but instead stand up for the hurting, we send a powerful message to the world.  We are all broken people in need of a Savior and together with Jesus we can find healing that leads to a life filled with hope, love and unity.

“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.  By this all people will know that you are my disciples: if you have love for one another.”  John 13:34-35

Sincerely,

Jolie

Click here to read all of the Postcards from Phoenix

 

64 thoughts on “Postcards from Phoenix: When Family Ties are Tested”

  1. New articles up on Christianity Today and Julie Roys about former Mars Hill elders issuing a letter saying Mark is not fit to be a leader.

  2. New articles up on Christianity Today and Julie Roys about former Mars Hill elders issuing a letter saying Mark is not fit to be a leader.

    1. Reading the story, it looks somewhat different from Mars Hill, in that the toxic bullying post-Piper was not from the head pastor but instead from the Elders. It seems that those who wanted the church to value racial justice and ministry to all ethnic groups instead of just the interests of white men were bullied into silence or into leaving the church.
      Sounds like the Elders who run the place have been watching too much Fox News, so that anybody who suggests racism is a problem or that white men might need to share their power is condemned as “woke.”

      There have been some similar dynamics around issues of race in the last year or so at the church I attend (except for the bullying as far as I’m aware), but fortunately the Fox News crowd did not have a majority among our Elders.

      Maybe there is at least one parallel to Mars Hill — at least one regular commenter here was saying recently that whiteness was a big aspect of the power structure there.

      1. In Mars Hill almost all of the pastors and Elders and other leaders, whatever you want to call them, were guilty of bullying or at least supporting and defending Driscoll’s bullying. Some of them created RepentedPastor.com which is now gone, but at the time was the place for those with a conscience who were in leadership to post a public apology. If they had not done that I would have never gotten interested in the Mars Hill saga. And without that I would never have come here or known that the Professor was the person I needed to take my knowledge of the GFA scam too.

        Beyond this I find the standard political crapola on both sides of the political isle to be nauseating. I am neither any kind of fan of the false theology associated with CRT nor am I any fan of those who are actually doing real racism as I have seen it coming from people of every race that there is. But what you stated about MH Elders not being abusive is certainly as false as anything I have seen written on this blog over the 7 years I have been active with it.

        1. Sorry if something was unclear — I did NOT say or imply that MH Elders were not abusive. I actually can’t see how you could have gotten that from my comment. While I don’t have the knowledge of the MH situation that you and Warren do, I agree that the Elders there seem to have been a significant part of the abusive environment.

          The distinction I was drawing was with regard to the head pastors in the situations.
          Unlike Mars Hill where the head pastor (Driscoll) was leading the abuse, the article on Julie’s website makes it appear that the head pastor and others who resigned at Bethlehem Baptist were victims of the abusive Elders and not perpetrators themselves.

        2. Sorry if something was unclear — I did NOT say that MH Elders were not abusive. I actually can’t see how you could have gotten that from my comment. While I don’t have the knowledge of the MH situation that you and Warren do, I agree that the Elders there seem to have been a significant part of the abusive environment.

          The distinction I was drawing was with regard to the head pastors in the situations.
          Unlike Mars Hill where the head pastor (Driscoll) was leading the abuse, the article on Julie’s website makes it appear that the head pastor and others who resigned at Bethlehem Baptist were victims of the abusive Elders and not perpetrators themselves.

    1. Thank you for the update. The first three installments are good, though the producers could easily create another three episodes focusing exclusively on the relationships between whiteness, patriarchy, and abusive power at Mars Hill.

  3. Thank you, Jolie, for sharing your insights and perspective. As a long-time watcher, but never attender, of the Mars Hill saga, I understand why some are asking you “Why did you go from Seattle to Phoenix”? I myself an having a difficult time with the new worship pastor at my local, Seattle-area church. The new worship pastor is the recently “fired” worship pastor from The Trinity Church there in Phoenix. Ever since I became aware that he uprooted his family from here, in 2016, and moved to Phoenix to “minister” with Mark Driscoll, I cannot help but question his apparent lack of discernment, and probable willingness to ignore the obvious. In all transparency, I’ve yet to be able to ask him about it, but hope to be able to soon. Not to judge, but to learn, and hopefully help in some way. As others have pointed out – there was a large quantity of information out there, some quite specific, that anyone who did even a small amount of research about Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill, would have been able to find out and educate themselves about. The only thing I can surmise, and truly hope for – is that he actually did ask hard questions about Mark, the “at the time” current state of MD’s spiritual life and “repentance”, and was snowed over/under by the charisma, or even just lied to, which would explain some things. It’s very hard for me to think that someone who is so forward facing in my church, in a position that requires A LOT of discernment – seemingly had none. I honestly feel like he needs time away from ministry to process and work-through everything. As someone who has been through some heavy relational abuse, I think it would be beneficial before stepping into an important role again. Time will tell, I guess.

    I will say this. I have friends and relatives in the Phoenix area. Even I knew, as an outside observer, to “mark and avoid” Mark Driscoll and his church. I nicely told people there to be on guard and do their research.

    I wish you all the best in your continued recovery, and hope that your family situation can be resolved in a Godly way.

    1. Thank you for your comment. I don’t want to speak for your new worship pastor but I will say that him and his family are some of our favorite people. I would definitely encourage you to ask him these questions. I am confident he would be happy to sit down and share his story through all of this situation and how they decided to take this new job.

  4. Hello, Jolie.

    I’ve appreciated what you’ve written. You are very sincere.

    I’m having a hard time with how you didn’t see/understand the huge numbers of human lives (hundreds? thousands?) that have been harmed & destroyed by MD and his influence. His destructive influence has been felt far from Mars Hill, wounding human lives. People more directly impacted have poured out their hearts for a number of years — crying out, in an effort to heal, to warn…. hoping for some justice, somehow. Here are many, below. Were you not aware of these? Did you not want to know? Did you not care? I’m having trouble with what seems like willful blindness. The information has been very available.

    https://welovemarshill.tumblr.com/

    https://joyfulexiles.com/

    https://web.archive.org/web/20160504170615/http://repentantpastor.com/category/stories/

    https://www.facebook.com/marshillnotanonymous

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/433217200154935/

    http://marshillrefuge.blogspot.com/

    1. scottie – In fairness, she has answered some of your questions in her previous comments. As a reader following along, it would be helpful, if you could pick up from some of those comments.

    2. scottie – In fairness, she has answered some of your questions in her previous comments. As a reader following along, it would be helpful, if you could pick up from some of those comments.

    3. Scottie- I genuinely wish I had better answers that could help make sense of our choices. I don’t know what more I can say. I was aware of and read some of those sites. All I can say is we didn’t know and hadn’t even ever seen any of those people. The only people we knew were the Driscolls and the Turners. So, again it’s not an excuse, it’s just an explanation. We chose to believe the people we had good relationship with over people we didn’t know.

      1. Thank you for the honest answer to a difficult question. I believe you. I’m very sorry for the pain MD / GD, etc. are bringing to your life.

    1. I’d be curious to see some of the “cease and desist” letters (“order” implies it came from a judge and I very much doubt that is the case). Unless these former members signed an NDA (and from the ones Warren posted even then) these letters are likely empty threats.

      1. You are correct, “Letters” not “Orders.” Corrected, above.

        Sorry, I’m not sure if/where these letters are.

        https://www.deardriscoll.com/ has more info on Driscoll from Chad Freese’s point of view, but I didn’t see any letters.

        1. It is my understanding that the “cease and desist” letters are around one thing, and that is the identity of the staff member whose behavior with a child got a member of security to make a report. That member of security was canned, and all the information was ordered to be deleted. I believe that is the only thing the c&d letters covered.

          1. Is this in regards to the Vince Manuele who was held by Anderson in his office or something else? If something else can you provide your source or more details?

            also, Vince Manuele has a Youtube channel with a few videos about Mark Driscoll and Trinity Church. I especially liked this one where he responds to the nonsense about “Mark is a good teacher, so that excuses him.” His answer is excellent. Not going to steal his thunder so go watch the video (it’s only 5 min). Vince is definitely smarter than the person here who kept making that claim, and he gives a better response to that claim than most of us here.

          2. Is this in regards to the Vince Manuele who was held by Anderson in his office or something else? If something else can you provide your source or more details?

            also, Vince Manuele has a Youtube channel with a few videos about Mark Driscoll and Trinity Church. I especially liked this one where he responds to the nonsense about “Mark is a good teacher, so that excuses him.” His answer is excellent. Not going to steal his thunder so go watch the video (it’s only 5 min). Vince is definitely smarter than the person here who kept making that claim, and he gives a better response to that claim than most of us here.

    2. Speaking of cease and desist….I am a fan of Julie’s work and regularly listen to her podcast. I use Google Podcasts as my primary podcast listening app, and have a notification set up to let me know when the podcasts I follow drop new episodes. Interestingly, shortly after I got notification of this Mars Hill episode yesterday, I went out to listen…and the episode was no longer in her Google Podcast feed. I listened through her website instead. I checked Apple Podcasts and it appears in her feed there, so I suppose it could just be a Google Podcast glitch, but part of me wonders if Driscoll & Co. reported the podcast to Google as inappropriate, or something….I would not put it past them.

    3. Speaking of cease and desist….I am a fan of Julie’s work and regularly listen to her podcast. I use Google Podcasts as my primary podcast listening app, and have a notification set up to let me know when the podcasts I follow drop new episodes. Interestingly, shortly after I got notification of this Mars Hill episode yesterday, I went out to listen…and the episode was no longer in her Google Podcast feed. I listened through her website instead. I checked Apple Podcasts and it appears in her feed there, so I suppose it could just be a Google Podcast glitch, but part of me wonders if Driscoll & Co. reported the podcast to Google as inappropriate, or something….I would not put it past them.

    4. The interesting thing I pulled out of that interview was that the two guys knew that Driscoll was, in their own words, “an A*hole” and yet that is what attracted them into coming there in the first place. And now he is acting like a rich A*hole with lies and attempts to club people with lawyers and they are surprised. These people are getting exactly what they should have expected in the first place. Why people claim to be Christians but want to become disciples of someone they themselves call an A*hole is way beyond me. It is like, “this man is an anti-Christ” lets submit to his teachings! No surprise that this is what happens when his disciples fall through the mountain of crap piled into the heavens and see pass the thin veneer.

  5. I rejoice that her family’s eyes were finally opened, but what took so long? The family was uprooted to follow Driscoll — not helping to plant a new church. The mom and dad knew all they needed to know but ignored it, saying “we were led by the Spirit”, but that would grieve the Spirit not being able to discern the Spirit of Light vs the spirit of darkness.

    They’re paying the consequences having been run over the bus. Hopefully Mrs. Zac Driscoll can one day reconcile with her family.

    I went from worrying about Grace’s safety to believing she’s the Machiavellian force behind all this evil.

    1. That brings up the one statement in this article that breaks one of the 10 commandments. My clan, the charismatics, love to commit a grave evil of taking the Lord’s name in vain. The original meaning of it was not using it as a cussword but rather not to attempt to leverage God’s name in order to do things He is not in or to stick words in His mouth that He is not saying. It is blasphemous to claim that the Holy Spirit led anyone to follow and join a cult of personality. The Holy Spirit’s job quite plainly is “to lead us into all Truth.” It does not lead us into error nor does it tell us to follow some blind guide until they push us into a ditch. My clan needs to repent and become much more warry of telling everyone that God lead me to do this or that ridiculous thing. He leads us to humble ourselves and follow Jesus Christ. He does not lead us into things that are personally destructive and foolish by their nature.

    2. I don’t want to make excuses or justifications for our choices.
      I just want to clarify, my family was not “uprooted” to follow Driscoll. There were many factors to our move to AZ outside of MH and the Driscoll’s and we (including our girls) wouldn’t change that decision. I said God brought us here and we absolutely believe that to be true. Did we over look things and ignore things at MH, yes we did. Are we sorry for supporting someone that has hurt people, absolutely. We have had amazing opportunities since moving to AZ with some incredible organizations, completely separate from Trinity, that love and serve Jesus in the community. We have made mistakes for sure, but we wouldn’t change our decision to move. God may have used the Driscoll’s to prompt the move but that is no where near the end of the story for why He brought us to AZ. We have learned and grown our faith in deep ways through all our family has been through. We are not a one dimensional family. There is way more to all of us than this one piece of our story. God certainly works in amazing ways even when we can’t see Him clearly and when we fall short. I am ok with the criticism and judgment. I certainly own our choices but be careful to not create such a basic narrative. We are far more than this tiny snap shot. Questioning our Christianity or our intelligence and making judgements on our choices is why many abused stay quiet. The point of me speaking up is to be an encouragement for other to speak out not be shamed into silence. I’m glad you have never made bad decisions or missed stepped in your faith. It must be amazing to not have abuse in your past that complicates your decisions and sometimes leads you down a hard paths. But for those that have…I hope you find the courage to stand up and speak out. Don’t get discouraged by the judgement from those standing on the sidelines. You are not alone. I will stand with the abused(physical, sexual, emotional, psychological and spiritual) all day, everyday against the abusers and those that shame and judge. Especially those in the Church that think they know better. When you walk in obedience with God nothing is wasted. I am thankful for the hard things we have had to walk through as a family even when they are the “consequences” of our choices. Frankly, our girls are stronger for what they have learned in the dark, hard times. We have full confidence that ALL our girls and their husbands are in God’s hands and we trust Him for their futures. We love them and are always there for them even when we don’t agree with their choices. Over all, our decision to move to AZ gave our family the opportunity to heal and grow from many things happening in WA. Even though the current situation is heartbreaking and difficult we are stronger as a family and in our faith. I can not stress enough how thankful we are to be in AZ and for the countless opportunities we have had to see God at work in our lives and the relationships that we have made as a family that have left us forever changed for the better. I am constantly amazed how God continues to work in our lives, even the messy parts.

      1. “God may have used the Driscoll’s to prompt the move…” Rest assured as a said below that God most certainly did not. God does not lead anyone into a cult. “It must be amazing to not have abuse in your past” this is sounding like you are making a judgment based on mere assumption. In my case I followed a scam to Oklahoma and watched in horror as a 10 year old girl got molested by the celebrity. Believe me you have to own your mistakes and not give that credit (blame) to God if you want to actually spiritually grow in this life. That is my testimony. God does redeem mistakes but only those that are owned. You have a long road ahead of you into being able to actually see accurately spiritual things. I know this from my personal experience in the school of hard knocks.

        1. I agree I most certainly have to own it!! I also have to be humble before God. I am sorry for what you had to witness. I actually am a girl that was molested by those in spiritual authority over me as a child and that part of my past are a key part of my testimony. It gets into a deeper discussion of how I believe God used the horrors of abuse in my life to shape me into the woman I am today. As difficult as those things are to grasp, I am who I am because of the path I believe God put me on. It is possible that this is a deeper theological discussion that we might not see eye to eye on.

          1. You have my sympathy for being a survivor of molestation. I have a family member who also has been But this also explains the hook that got you caught up in Driscoll’s web. People with unhealed or only partially healed emotional wounds from abuse do tend to find themselves in repeating patterns of getting abused again. This is the classic Alinon pattern where a person keeps being attracted to alcoholics over and over again as they attempt to resolve old unresolved issues with other people. But that never does work so the pattern repeats until such time as it is recognized for what it is and clear intentional steps are taken to stop the cycle. This works with other things as well such as the fact that me and my brother both married women with psyche issues because our mother had multiple breakdowns for what is now called Major Depressive Disorder. This led to two divorces. Knowing my pattern I made sure I found someone who did not have a disorder. My brother thought he was getting out of that pit but was actually dating a woman who had early signs of Alzheimer’s. He married her and shortly after she was diagnosed. Now she sits as little more than a vegetable in a hospice room, neither dying nor improving any. These issues have lifelong implications and there are no quick fixes. You either face them and choose to do what is necessary no matter how difficult or your issues just roll over you like a steamroller.

            I have found that regardless of theological opinions the path that God has all of us to walk on is the path of sanctification. This in not a one time event but a lifelong process. The issues that repeat in cycles that are unhealthy do require lots of work over many years and decades to overcome. Denial is something independent of theology. It is the normal carnal response of humans but there is n0 sanctification there. It is evident to me that you have just started your journey out of denial and onto a path of continuing sanctification. There are no shortcuts to full recovery. I hope that you will stay on that path. From my perspective you have a lot of things to see yet and to deal with. Indeed, all of the things I already have dealt with and some I have not had to. I am pulling for you to get there but on that journey you will find how severely carnal the average “Christian” church or ministry really is. It has turned many people in disillusioned atheists. Things are far, far worse than your writings indicate to me that you realize. This is my perspective as a believer with 5 decades of experience.

          2. I 100% agree with you. My past trauma, which involves much more than the above mentioned and my husbands desire to be the best husband he could be and get me away from my narcissistic parents, lead us down a path of repeated patterns. Sadly, this isn’t even my first cult. My parents got me started back in the 70’s down that road. A lot of things contributed to us having our eyes opened. One of the big ones was EMDR therapy that I did for a year and a half plus the current therapy I am in for my eating disorder. I have had an amazing team of professionals and friends(not associated with Trinity) helping me recover from CPTSD. Without the hard work and the continued path toward healing, I would of never written the postcard. Like I said earlier, what I wrote was a very small look at one event. My families trauma is way more complex. MH and Trinity are really just a small part of our story. However, because of all the things we have learned better how to keep our door open and love our neighbor in deeper ways. Our family has grown from 5 biological daughters to 7 girls and 1 boy and 2 son in laws that we claim as family. That is why it has become easy for me to say that I am thankful for the hard road. We wouldn’t have some of these kids in our life if I didn’t understand trauma on many levels. On paper everything points to me being disillusioned with the Church but my faith is probably the only consistent, solid thing throughout my life. My journey is a constant reminder of the incredible grace of God. Also, pretty thankful for a husband that has hung in there for 26 years.
            I appreciate your perspective and sharing part of your story!!

          3. I am glad you found some effective therapy. I hope more will. I see that as having a place in the sanctification process that we all are supposed to be going through.

          4. The abuse you suffered as a child is a terrible thing for you to have to overcome, and perhaps makes some of your past decisions much more understandable.

            The most important thing is – armed with understanding – where you go from here, and I wish you well.

          5. Thank you!! I was foolish to think that without extensive therapy I would be able to recognize a narcissist just because I was raised by one and because of other trauma I could see evil clearly. The opposite turned out to be true. Thankful for the past couple years with an amazing team of therapy professionals!! Not an excuse for our choices just a better understanding of how we got here.

          6. Apologies for the delay in responding, Jolie, but work has been very busy.

            I certainly see no merit in blaming yourself for choices (or were they genuinely choices?) you quite rightly regret.

          7. “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,” Sins that are properly repented of is forgiven. Regret can keep us from repeating the same sins, but there is no condemnation coming from The One who matters.

          8. I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “were they genuinely choices”

          9. Making genuine choices requires confidence and self-understanding. Victims of abuse often lack confidence when confronted by people on the psychopathic spectrum (I don’t know Driscoll personally, but what I have read suggests to me that he is such a person), I think, until they have come to terms with what happened to them.

            I suppose that was my point – although, given that I do not know you personally, I was making the point in the form of a question.

          10. Thank you for explaining. That is a very true statement. Until I received therapy and healing from my past abuse I definitely wasn’t seeing MD’s narcissism (and I would agree, psychopathic tendencies) clearly.

          11. Sadly, MD is far from alone: I gather that ministers of religion (along with CEOs, lawyers and police officers) as a group are ‘over-represented’ in this area, in the view of some researchers. Perhaps it is to be expected in a way, especially when a minister is also in effect running a business …

      2. Jolie, thanks for the response. I judge your family’s discernment since you went to Phoenix with eyes open. I spent 15 years at MH and yes indeed I was hurt I was accused of being possessed by a demon and while not kicked out, I was taken out off all my volunteer positions. All because I questioned why Driscoll no longer taught from the Bible.

        I saw signs but ignored them, just as your family seemed to have done.

        I’m very glad you have reconnected and I didn’t question your faith, just your discernment since you KNEW what happened at MH It’s all so easy to be deceived and I was for too long giving time and treasure to a den of thieves.

        I pray you can reconnect with your daughter. Your heart must be breaking.

        1. I am so sorry for how you were hurt at MH!! I completely understand and take responsibility for how my families choice to support their ministry added to that hurt. For that I am deeply sorry!! We made a choice to stay way longer than we should have due to our daughter. Like I said I don’t regret our move to AZ but we could of chosen a different church when we got here. One of our older daughters actually did immediately make that choice and our youngest split her time with our current church.

          Sadly I would say our eyes weren’t fully open until last summer. We were distracted by wanting to maintain our daughters happiness and our love for Zac. However, when Sutton Turner (a friend and someone we respected) did the interview with Warren and Dave Bruskas our eyes became completely open and I realized we had contributed to the hurt. Again, I am sorry for that and the hurt you experienced at MH.

          Thank you for your prayers.

        2. I am so sorry for how you were hurt at MH!! I completely understand and take responsibility for how my families choice to support their ministry added to that hurt. For that I am deeply sorry!! We made a choice to stay way longer than we should have due to our daughter. Like I said I don’t regret our move to AZ but we could of chosen a different church when we got here. One of our older daughters actually did immediately make that choice and our youngest split her time with our current church.

          Sadly I would say our eyes weren’t fully open until last summer. We were distracted by wanting to maintain our daughters happiness and our love for Zac. However, when Sutton Turner (a friend and someone we respected) did the interview with Warren and Dave Bruskas our eyes became completely open and I realized we had contributed to the hurt. Again, I am sorry for that and the hurt you experienced at MH.

          Thank you for your prayers.

          1. I believe MH collapsed because it was a church built around Mark that because of decisions he made wouldn’t survive in Seattle without him. I believed the structure of the church was flawed. Also, to some extent, Mark needed to make changes in how he treated people and the things he said from the pulpit. We naively thought as their friends and not employees we could offer help to setting up a healthier church structure. That we would have a voice into their blind spots. So that leads to the bigger question…what did I believe about Mark and what was being said? That, of course, is a much more complicated question. We only knew 1 of the 21 elders that brought the charges and at the time we weren’t all that close to him. We were on the fringe so it made it easy to believe the narrative Grace was telling me. My father is a narcissist and at the time I didn’t recognize it in Mark. We believed he probably had a temper but thought that through all of this God had humbled him and he was repentant. I wasn’t a huge Paul Tripp fan so I really didn’t care about his opinion. Again we foolishly believed what Grace was telling me about people we had never met and situations that were before our MH time. We wanted to see the good in them. Probably over simplifying all our family conversations but admittedly we had a lot going on with my extended family that magnified the need to get out of WA fast. Like I said earlier, there were a lot of factors going on in our family that lead to not taking a closer look or really listening to the testimonies coming from leadership. We wanted to believe the people we considered friends and be a help to them. Obviously we see now and would use much stronger language than “flaws” or “blind spots”. Narcissism and evil of the top of my head. Not sure if that adequately answers your question.

          2. Jolie – I admire you for responding to these difficult and tough questions here.

        3. Yep, Mark preached from the Bible all the time. Its what motivated me to go to that church. But after while you didn’t hear about the Bible too much. There was always some reference to scripture, but lalter much of what Mark had to say was about finances. Somewhere near the start of a message and he would excitedly say how popular MH was and how fast its growing…and then give numbers. Eventually it was, “we are the fastest growing church in the country”, but then he would also put down other churches and call out those ministers. It was always to elevate MH. Then you would hear how many downloads his messages were getting each week This is all to say that the bible was taking a second seat to what Mark had to say about MH. But it was also about himself. Every Wed. he would set the day aside to do interviews around the country. He would make a point to share this with us. Then Mark was rarely speaking at MH (main campus). This went for weeks….then months. He was gone more and more. Finally he was gone for good. A friend and I often talk about Mark and the bible themed messages and how we missed all that. We still talk about the Bible and how Mark would go through whole books and chapters. But then how he got away from all that….and it became something else…..something that eventually led to the demise of the whole church (and Mark).

  6. It is sad that so many Christians are so spiritually blind and deaf that they fall for this bit of fake veneer over what is in reality a pile of manure stacked up into the heavens. They get drawn in by how big the pile is and the veneer makes it look like something good, but dig into it just pass the surface and you should find out what it really is! And yet some folks will give many years of their lives following a celebrity while ignoring what the pile really is until they slip themselves and break through the surface. Once they have fallen in they have the rudest possible wake up call. Jesus warned us to look out for deception. Jesus told us plainly that if we do not follow Him but follow some other then we are not His disciple but theirs. Jesus told us that living a religious life of hypocrisy will not save anyone. Yet from Mars Hill until today there are so many stories of people who were attracted by the height of the pile and ignored all the damage done when others fell into it or were runover by the bus, until it was their turn.

    To give this lady credit it sounds like she is in a place of repentance. Listening to the little sheep and tuning out the Big Jerk leveraging Jesus for the family business profits is the right thing to do. But all of this, including a marriage that sounds like it is doomed with the daughter could have been avoided years ago by worshipping Jesus Christ in practice instead of the Narcissist Celebrity. The sooner people wake up and start following the real Jesus Christ the less the price that will have to be paid on this earth. I have no doubt that their are many people who walked into Mark’s churches just once and instantly heard from the Holy Spirit that there is something very wrong and so they never came back. These folks saved themselves from the bus and the pile. If only the rest would do this Mark would go bankrupt! Instead he is getting rich off of telling people to ignore all possible precautions in a time of a pandemic that God Himself has sent as a wake up call for His own people.

  7. Cult.

    That’s the only word that came to mind after reading the story.

    Driscoll is sounding more like Jim Jones.

    I hope that he repents.

    1. “The only message we received after leaving Trinity was a simple text from Mark letting us know that he approved of our new church.” – yeah, this bit especially. Sad for this lady and her daughter getting caught up and brainwashed into the family business

    2. Repent? Jesus is not going to change Mark Driscoll. Jesus does not change any abusive person who uses christianity to abuse and harm. The only hope is that the members leave before their families, their finances and their mental health are totally destroyed.

    3. Repent? Jesus is not going to change Mark Driscoll. Jesus does not change any abusive person who uses christianity to abuse and harm. The only hope is that the members leave before their families, their finances and their mental health are totally destroyed.

Comments are closed.