Does Anything Sound Familiar Here?

In recent weeks, former members of The Trinity Church have come forward with various stories of being surveiled and being subjected to loyalty tests. Recently, the church threatened legal action against former members. These are concerning tactics and have brought some comparisons to Scientology.

I thought of that comparison when reading this article in Daily Beast about Scientology and surveillance of a former member. Check out this description of “Fair Game” from the article:

“For decades, Scientology has been known to hire private investigators to surveil and harass former members and other people it considers enemies. It even has a name for the policy, which founder L. Ron Hubbard called ‘Fair Game.’ Hubbard said that people identified as targets for ‘Fair Game’ could be ‘tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed,'” said the report. “Critics of Scientology’s tax-exempt status have long pointed to the church’s ‘Fair Game’ policy and use of private investigators as a prime example of the way that the organization is misusing its favored status with the government, and largesse from taxpayers. Remini often decries that Scientology not only harasses and surveils former members, but that it does it with tax-free funds.”

While the allegations from former members don’t include the term “Fair Game,” they do include similar sounding tactics. Chad Freese, former director of security said this about internal deliberations at The Trinity Church:

In another Angelo security meeting, you [Mark Driscoll] and Brandon discussed how you had tripled your litigation fund to approximately $10 million. You said something along the lines of

If Angelo crosses me, I will just bankrupt him and bleed him dry in court. It is a numbers game. I guarantee you he runs out of money before I do.

You followed that up with, “In fact, that goes for anyone.” You continued to talk horribly about Angelo and said,

Hell, he’s a broke-ass dad that could not financially take care of his son. He only tithes $25 per month. He doesn’t have much money so bankrupting him will be easy.

The rest of Freese’s document describes surveillance of a family and regular monitoring of members’ social media postings.

I invite readers to draw your own conclusions.

 

42 thoughts on “Does Anything Sound Familiar Here?”

  1. Tip:

    When a church can be described as “Just Like Scientology, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!” that is NOT a good sign.

  2. On the Roy’s Report there is a live interview with Chad Freese and another man both of which had resigned from church security at Mark Driscoll’s Trinity church in Scottsdale. Among a number of issues that raised alarms for them was a man and wife who reported what they believed to be a red flag between children and a church staff person. The couple described it as “grooming” the children. Its not to say that abuse was being done. Mark later said there was no abuse.
    But what is alarming about the incident is what happened to the couple who shared what they saw. If you believe what the two guys were saying on the live interview both the husband and wife were banned from the church before they had a chance to explain what they observed. Chad had asked to see the video of the buidling since video cameras are everywhere and he was denied! One of the pastors even told him to tear up the report he had written up as he believed it should go to child protective services.

    So what kind of a message does this say? It says, “if you have something to report, even a safety concern with our staff know you could be punished for speaking up. The penalty? Banned from the church along with everyone else who isn’t loyal. Disloyalty is saying or doing something that doesn’t put the church in the best possible light. This is unbelievable to me…..that this couple was ostracised because they wanted to report a potential danger to one or more of the Trinity kids. This is why warning signs are not reported because of what might happen to the reporter. The message of Trinity is very clear…..what you have to report, even about the kids is not wanted if it invoves staff. Sadly most of the parents there will ignore what happened because they love Mark and want to continue hearing his messages. As for the couple booted out of the church. They probably have been given an attorney letter to keep quiet or get sued. Thankfully Chad went to the Scottsdale PD and reported the incident anyway. He shouldn’t have though. It should have been reported by one of the Trinity pastors immediately.

  3. What else would you guys expect from TULIP theology?

    If God can be cruel why can’t Driscoll?

  4. This Throckmorton dork’s only claim to fame is that he wrote a book attacking another author.

    What a loser.

    How many books has the dork sold?

    He’s not even a zero, he’s a negative number.

    If this twit is a Christian, Satan is a Christian.

    “Warren” – sounds like the class nerd, the kind who dreaded Phys Ed.

    1. It is so nice when supporters of Driscoll show up with their nuanced and sophisticated arguments.

      1. Well Warren, after all, the title of this post is: Does Anything Sound Familiar Here?
        😉

    2. if you actually knew anything about Warren’s history, you would know that he (and his blog) was well-known long before he wrote “Getting Jefferson Right: Fact checking claims about our third president” Which, btw, is still available, unlike the other book which was pulled for all the incorrect claims it made.

    3. Your attempt to hide behind childish name-calling and fear-mongering has failed. Your own comment illustrates you have no valid counter-argument in response to Dr. Throckmorton nor his fact-informed critiques of authoritarian and fraud Mark Driscoll.

      What’s your PhD in? And how many peer-reviewed publications do you have? Show us your credentials and publication record.

      1. Given his writing “style” I wouldn’t bet on him being able to produce a HS diploma, let alone a Ph.D.

      2. Given his writing “style” I wouldn’t bet on him being able to produce a HS diploma, let alone a Ph.D.

    4. Once again I have to thank Discus for the blocking options for trolls. Mark’s Disciples can be just so anti-Christ in their practice. Being a A-hole online does not further the true gospel in any way. One more person I can thankfully ignore.

      1. Are we sure these people are “Mark’s disciples” being jerks? As an attender of Mark’s church, we are not “Mark’s disciples”, but Jesus’. Not denying people can be jerks.

    5. This reminds me of the Scientology thugs who used to harass critics back in the Usenet days. It’s just as ridiculous.

      Everything old is new again.

      1. “Just like Scientology, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”

        You know what broke Scientology’s cultivated essence of fear?
        South Park.
        Where’s the Parker & Stone for Deep Throat Driscoll?

  5. I don’t understand why people stay in these kinds of settings, especially when all you have to do is google Mark Driscoll to know all about him. I rarely approach a business, church or any other place I may have some kind of relationship with without at least checking Yelp or Google reviews. Do people lose their sense of what’s rational, or is is all so shiny and new that they just get sucked in?

    1. You hear about Driscoll from a friend or family member. You’re told the stories about him are lies spread by enemies of Jesus. You know Jesus is much maligned, it has a ring of truth to it. You go and hear a message. It sounds dynamic (Driscoll is a gifted speaker, has a degree in communications and 25 years of marketing experience). You begin to believe the stories about him are defamatory. There are a lot of reasons why people might stay on for abuse: 1). Your family or close friends go there, so you’re willing to endure some hardships for them, 2). You have a sincere (but possibly misguided) belief that you can change the culture, 3). You hear the message and it’s compelling, because even when stories about Him are spoken from the mouth of a liar and thief, Jesus is a fascinating and magnetic person, 4). You get into the cult and are drawn by the energy (most cults have it in abundance) and enthusiasm (ditto) and only find out about the abuse when you’re pot committed. You get caught in a sunk costs fallacy trap, 5). You gradually get brainwashed by a steady drumbeat of abuse, activity that cults so often require that often cost people sleep and free time and draw them away from outside influences, and a message that doesn’t match up with the integrity of the one preaching it. The brain goes crazy trying to reconcile it. You become easy pickings.

      1. Not disagreeing as a descriptive matter, but your second through fourth sentences describe a failure of due diligence. The proper response to hearing that this guy is charismatic but bad news is not to go and learn that yes, he is charismatic, so what more does one need?

        1. So what does due diligence for a church attender look like? If you are invited, go and enjoy the worship, hear a solid Bible sermon and meet friendly people, what should the next step be? Do people go investigate the church and pastor? That never would cross my mind.

          He is a good Bible preacher but I would not call him charismatic.

          1. “What should my next steps be?”

            Ask why the lady is protesting out side the church
            Ask why pastors, youth volunteers and other families are no longer part of the church.
            Ask how the preacher/church helps others/promotes christianity besides saying pretty words at a pulpit.

          2. It would never cross your mind, yet here we have Driscoll. Clearly you should reconsider. What would you do if your roof was leaking and you needed someone to come look at it? How would you go about choosing a roofing contractor? I know how would (and did) do it. I asked friends and neighbors if they had used a roofer, who they had used, and if they were happy with the results. I read online reviews. I looked at which established outfits, here for the long haul rather than a quick buck. I have been entirely happy with the results. I find very weird the idea that someone would put less thought into choosing a church than choosing a contractor.

          3. I’m sorry but that doesn’t make sense. If your friend says, Hey I know a roofing guy and he’s good, you wouldn’t do all that. You would hire him. Most people I have mentioned Driscoll’s name to have never heard of him, outside of the church obviously. And those who were invited by a friend who said come visit, it’s good, like me, went and heard solid Bible teaching. That is the main thing most Jesus followers are looking for when they visit and evaluate a church. But you guys keep trying to incriminate a congregation of innocent people for whatever reason.

          4. “But you guys keep trying to incriminate a congregation of innocent people for whatever reason.”

            You are not “innocent.” So why do you keep assuming the rest of the congregation is?

      2. I agree with rrhersh’s comment (see below). There is something called discernment that is greatly lacking in the 21st century church (probably most of the 20th, too). We don’t measure our preachers/leaders according to the standards of Scripture, but by their “charisma” (no offense to my Charismatic friends). In 2 Cor 10 and 11 Paul has a lot to say about the dangers of false teachers, who are usually arrogant, claim to have a special anointing from God, and cause division in churches.

        1. True. And I must say (as a non-US person myself) that while this lack of discernment is certainly not unique to the US, it does appear to be much more pronounced and widespread there than in many (most?) other countries.

        2. Driscoll is not charismatic in that sense. He is not a false teacher. One reason I keep posting here is because of all the false accusations and smears of the congregation like we are mindless idiots over here. He preaches straight Bible. Going through a book at a time. The gospel of Jesus Christ is clearly presented. I do have discernment and listen carefully. The reason the church is growing, and I have talked to people who are new, is because they are not getting the whole truth of Scripture preached clearly in their own churches. He actually is a very good preacher, with good historical context, explaining meaning of words from the original text. If these things are true and he has an authoritarian leadership style and maybe an anger/control problem, the vast majority have no idea what is going on behind closed doors.

        3. Driscoll is not charismatic in that sense. He is not a false teacher. One reason I keep posting here is because of all the false accusations and smears of the congregation like we are mindless idiots over here. He preaches straight Bible. Going through a book at a time. The gospel of Jesus Christ is clearly presented. I do have discernment and listen carefully. The reason the church is growing, and I have talked to people who are new, is because they are not getting the whole truth of Scripture preached clearly in their own churches. He actually is a very good preacher, with good historical context, explaining meaning of words from the original text. If these things are true and he has an authoritarian leadership style and maybe an anger/control problem, the vast majority have no idea what is going on behind closed doors.

        4. Driscoll is not charismatic in that sense. He is not a false teacher. One reason I keep posting here is because of all the false accusations and smears of the congregation like we are mindless idiots over here. He preaches straight Bible. Going through a book at a time. The gospel of Jesus Christ is clearly presented. I do have discernment and listen carefully. The reason the church is growing, and I have talked to people who are new, is because they are not getting the whole truth of Scripture preached clearly in their own churches. He actually is a very good preacher, with good historical context, explaining meaning of words from the original text. If these things are true and he has an authoritarian leadership style and maybe an anger/control problem, the vast majority have no idea what is going on behind closed doors.

      3. Well, no. People hear from a friend or family, go visit, hear great worship and sound Bible teaching, instead of the watered down, don’t want to offend anyone with the truth preaching they get at a lot of churches. They have no idea any of this is going on, unless they become connected to the inner core of leadership, which 98% won’t. They are busy with their lives and have no reason to research their pastor. So, no brainwashing. We are not mindless dopes over here.

      4. Well, no. People hear from a friend or family, go visit, hear great worship and sound Bible teaching, instead of the watered down, don’t want to offend anyone with the truth preaching they get at a lot of churches. They have no idea any of this is going on, unless they become connected to the inner core of leadership, which 98% won’t. They are busy with their lives and have no reason to research their pastor. So, no brainwashing. We are not mindless dopes over here.

        1. Not mindless dopes, just an audience of enablers.

          It is okay if Driscoll operates a Scientology like group as long as we get our pretty sermon and the kids get bouncy houses. As long as Driscoll performs, he can do whatever he wants.

          1. Just came from church. Sang a Scientology favorite – In Christ Alone.
            How do you enable if you have no idea there is a problem? Why do you all insist that everyone is in on it?! It is offensive and wrong how you continue to do this. You can question me since I am here and am reading this stuff, but you will be accountable for all the brothers and sisters you slandered. You make me sad. What is missing in your life that you do this?

          2. “How do you enable if you have no idea there is a problem?”

            By giving donations that allow Driscoll to continue harming people. By continuing to support Driscoll even after being made aware of what he has done and is continuing to do (like what you are doing).

            I’ll ask again, since you have yet to answer:

            How many people in the church have you told about Driscoll’s behaviour when he is NOT behind the pulpit?

          3. I was just thinking, maybe you can write some articles about the dark side of Martin Luther and Martin Luther King when you get tired of writing about Driscoll.

          4. Neither of those men are alive and harming people the way Driscoll is. And in terms of the good done, Driscoll doesn’t compare to either of them.

            Why do you keep trying to defend a dangerous, conman like Driscoll?

        2. In other words, it’s a consumerist view of religion. You pay your tithes and in return you are entertained and/or edified by the preaching, and that’s the extent of it–it’s a business relationship in which they produce goods and you consume them. You’re not a member of an organization (my understanding is that Trinity actually does not have members). You’re certainly not part of a community. You’re not part of the Bride of Christ or anything mystical like that. You’re a *customer.*

          This means, of course, that if the leadership is abusive it’s not your problem. We hear the same argument about Amazon. “I’m just buying from them. It’s not my fault they treat their workers badly. The product is good and that’s what I care about.”

          It’s no wonder that this model of religion leads nowhere good. And it’s kind of shocking to see Christianity fall into it.

  6. what saddens me most about driscoll, yohanan, the mud man, mcdonald, and their like is that they are using a perverted, twisted, and false gospel of jesus christ to, for the most part, enrich themselves monetarily.
    snake oil salesmen and ponzi scheme operators at least don’t use the gospel of jesus.

    and while all these charlatans take in their loot, most christian leaders are silent about their deception.

    1. Indeed, rage-filled authoritarians are deeply popular among U.S. Evangelicals, from Driscoll to McDonald to Trump to John MacArthur. Even the smallest attempt to speak truth to power immediately triggers Evangelicals to obfuscate, deny, deceive, and further enable more abusive authoritarianism.

      So many U.S. Evangelical leaders and their followers are not merely silent, they take delight in their evil.

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