Recently, C. Peter Wagner, the Presiding Apostle for the International Council of Apostles, a subsidiary of Global Harvest Ministries, described dominionism as follows:
When Jesus came, he brought the kingdom of God and He expects His kingdom-minded people to take whatever action is needed to push back the long-standing kingdom of Satan and bring the peace and prosperity of His kingdom here on earth. This is what we mean by dominionism.
But what if you live in a country that protects the rights of those who you think are in the kingdom of Satan? What actions should you take? What laws should you support?
The answer seems to differ based on the kind of dominionist you are. For this post, I note two approaches – not always friendly to each other – those who follow the Seven Mountains teaching (New Apostolic Reformation) and those who call themselves theonomists or Christian Reconstructionists.
What these groups have in common in their belief that civil government should reflect Christian moral teachings. Those who deviate from Christian moral teaching should be subject to the laws of the land in addition to laws of the church. While this post is not exhaustive, there seems to be a difference between those in the New Apostolic Reformation and the Christian Reconstructionist movements when it comes to what kind of civil punishments should be delivered to those who violate Christian teachings regarding sexuality.
First, the New Apostolic Reformation.
In late 2009, I noted that the Seven Mountains teachings had adherents among those in Uganda who were strongly pushing the Anti-Homosexuality Bill there. If passed as is, the AHB will make homosexuality a capital offense. Because of his association with AHB promoter in Uganda, Apostle Julius Oyet, and his teaching on reclaiming the Seven Mountains of culture, I asked Atlanta pastor, Johnny Enlow, what he thought about laws criminalizing homosexuality. Enlow’s reply leaves room for criminalization but stops short of calling for the death penalty:
As to the question of whether governments should criminalize homosexuality as part of taking the mountain of government- this would only be a second best method of bringing awareness that the behavior of homosexuality is wrong. This becomes a necessity only when the moral fiber of society has become so degraded that society itself is in need of knowing right and wrong. For me, the point of criminalizing homosexuality is not to bring punishment to homosexuals but rather to inform society of right and wrong. I would be against harsh punishments against homosexual activity between consenting adults and would not endorse capital punishment for this scenario. Society does need to know that homosexual behavior is wrong but it would not be defensible to execute homosexuals anymore than it would be to execute rebellious children- which is espoused to some measure in Leviticus. There is a greater grace assigned to the new covenant understanding of the New Testament. Rebellious children are still wrong in their rebellion and homosexuals are still wrong in their behavior but we do not need the extreme punishments of the Old Testament. I personally believe that most who suffer from homosexual feelings are worthy of great compassion because as a rule it tells us they have suffered some significant traumas in their lives. It would not express the heart of God towards them for there to be government-sponsored “witch hunts” against them. Our fractured homes and fractured society greatly contribute to the presence of homosexual realities and individuals who manifest the marks of societal decay cannot be made to pay the full price for a greater societal ill. They are responsible for personal choices but there must be margin for compassion when fully understanding the causal effects. The in-your-face activist homosexual agenda is of course generating it’s own strong repercussions and backlashes and to the degree that they insist on forcing upon society their aberrations to that degree they will see increasing measures to limit their activism of a sin behavior.
As a reaction to my articles on Uganda’s anti-gay bill and the Seven Mountains teaching, Charisma magazine asked C. Peter Wagner and Lance Walnau whether or not the dominionism of the New Apostolic Reformation required death for gays. First Wallnau:
In a statement to Charisma, Wallnau, author of The 7 Mountain Mandate: Impacting Culture, Discipling Nations, said the seven mountains message is not about imposing laws but liberating spheres of influence. Although “the government in its sphere must enforce sanctions,” he said the proposed anti-homosexuality bill “seems like a severe sanction.”
He said Christians who crusade for social reform should consider the outcome of the Prohibition Act, which outlawed alcohol but also fueled organized crime.
“Christians had made a massive impact in the ‘temperance movement’ to stop drunkenness. Then they overreached with draconian legislation called the Volstead Act, and the backlash legalized alcohol,” Wallnau said. “To my brothers in Uganda I would say, ‘Be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.’”
And then Wagner:
Although he commended Ugandan lawmakers for attempting to stand for biblical principles, he said legislating morality is not feasible. If Uganda wanted to legislate biblical principles, it would have to criminalize adultery and premarital sex and not single out homosexuality, he said.
“My position is that this is not a good way to do it,” Wagner said. “To legislate against sexual orientation is probably crossing the line. It’s like making a law whether parents can spank their children or not. It’s much too much of a personal ethical issue. … I would support raising up a national conscience against homosexuality and allowing the Holy Spirit to work that way.”
Based on these statements, dominionists in the NAR tradition want to discourage homosexuality from a national platform but are squeamish about “severe sanctions” like death.
Moving to the theonomic Christian Reconstructionists, squeamishness goes right out the window.
American Vision is a Christian Reconstructionist group who has partnered with Liberty University’s Law School among other mainstream social conservative organizations.
Two American Vision writers Gary DeMar and Joel McDurmon both advocate the death penalty for gays. In his book Ruler of Nations, DeMar says about laws regarding gays:
Obviously, certain sins often may escape detection. Homosexuals who practice behind closed doors are out-of-bounds for the courts, of course, unless others witness their criminal behavior. Such behavior may not be dealt with by courts in history, but will be dealt with by God, either in history (e.g., AIDS) or eternity. The law that requires the death penalty for homosexual acts effectually drives the perversion of homosexuality underground, back to the closet, to the dark realm of shameful activity. (p. 212).
DeMar has some thoughts about others who are outside the evangelical rule:
Fourth, we must elect public officials who say they will vote for Biblical laws. First and foremost, this means voting to prohibit abortion. While few Christians are willing to go this far, the longterm goal should be the execution of abortionists and parents who hire them. If we argue that abortion is murder, then we must call for the death penalty. If abortionists are not supposed to be executed, then they are not murderers, and if they are not murderers, why do we want to abolish abortion? In short, Christians must learn to think consistently. (p.218)
I imagine I have just scratched the surface of Mr. DeMar’s work.
Back to Uganda’s anti-gay bill, American Vision’s Joel McDurmon commended Uganda politicians in 2009 and had this to say about civil penalties for gays.
Now, it just so happens that God revealed that the homosexual act is a civil crime, and it just so happens that He revealed that the homosexual act as a civil crime deserves the death penalty. [Rick] Warren disagrees. He argues, “Since God created all, and Jesus suffered and died for all, then we are to treat all with respect.” Of course, Jesus never claimed to suffer and die for all; He claimed to give his life as a ransom for many (Matt. 20:28; 26:28; Heb. 2:10; 9:28). Likewise, God did not create all for unqualified “respect,” but some to be vessels of dishonor and destruction (Rom. 9:21–23).
For Christian Reconstructionists, civil penalties must follow what the Old Testament prescribes. In this way, the reconstructionists outdo the NAR dominionists.
One of the first tier reconstructionists is Gary North. North delivered a scathing attack on friend and GCC colleague T. David Gordon (no friend to the reconstructionists) in an 2003 email. North says he has the solution to the problem of divorce:
OK, let’s get down to specifics. Let’s go to the Bible. Here are my two verses. Dr. Gordon can call me in the morning.
And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death (Lev. 20:10).
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery (Matt. 5:32).
A theonomist says, “Let’s put one and one together.” An anti-theonomist says, “Let’s not.” Dr. Gordon is worried about high divorce rates. I have a solution to this problem. Re-write the civil laws governing adultery so that the victimized spouse can have a civil court order the execution of a convicted adulterous spouse and his/her consort. The divorce rate would drop — dare I say it? — like a stone.
Something else that would drop like a stone is the poll number of a politician directly linked with either one of these theories of civil law. No wonder many social conservatives are out in force trying to deny that these movements have any consequence or have any influence on Rick Perry or Michele Bachmann.
In 2008, Barack Obama’s associations religious and otherwise were considered fair game for his opponents. If the same is true this time around, then 2012 should be a bonanza for the opponents of Perry and/or Bachmann should they make it on the GOP ticket.
See also Part 2 and Part 3 in the series about what dominionists would do with gays. Part 3 also examines what one thread of dominionist (theonomic Christian Reconstructionists would do with anyone who failed to keep Mosaic law – e.g., adulterers, blasphemers, idolators, disobedient children, etc.)
Open Season declared on Trans children
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/09/gay-slaying-jury.html
Comparing adultery and gayism is really stupid. Gayism is not just an immoral issue, it is also an increasingly an international sexual movement led by Westerners who have an agenda to impose it on every country in the world. Unlike gay sex deviants, adulterers and fornicators do not form international movements to press for their behaviour to be accepted and codified into law. They do not press for people who disapprove of their behaviour to be criminalized with stupid laws such as the one that caused a Swedish Pastor to be arrested and sentenced to a month in jail for criticizing gayism during a church sermon. All the arguments offered so far to support gayism on this comment thread is ridiculous and an insult to the intelligence of the Ugandan people. Gayism is already a criminal offence and we intend to expand the scope of punishment for it regardless of your protestations. And yes, if you do not like what we are doing, then implore your government to withdraw their useless blackmail money (a.k.a “donor aid packages”)
Zoe Brain# ~ Sep 1, 2011 at 8:18 pm
“Open Season declared on Trans children”
No Zoe, it doesn’t mean that at all.
I realize this case is very tragic and has personal significance to you. However, this type of hyperbole doesn’t really help.
The work you’ve done on the Uganda gay issue is so outstanding, Warren. Thanks for so diligently, competently, and compassionately championing the bringing of light to this extremely troubling situation.
Good analysis Dr. T.
I find myself in interesting conversations with people who wear their religious beliefs on their sleeves, but don’t want to engage in I would think would be the simplest terms on which we could agree.
Especially the basic directive of treating another person the way they’d want to be treated. It’s a test of basic ethics and morals to walk the walk. Especially when we’re talking about making DISTINCTIONS in what religious sins are as compared to moral sins. And public policy and the limits of government and religious CHOICE.
Our particular country has had those moral creeds tested over the two and half centuries since it’s inception as a country.
Over indigenous populations, over slavery, over women’s rights, over Jim Crow, women’s liberation. The very recent history of Jim Crow and women’s liberation can give us insights on similar national discussions and how religious influence figures into all of it.
And in each of these sea changes in our history, faith communities were as engaged in maintaining dominance and segregation over whatever human beings they wanted.
That is to say, depending on who’s ox was gored, could a person of faith be trusted WITH that faith and how they intended to use it.
I’m sure all of us know people who considered themselves good people. Who were hard working and charitable, who STILL harbored prejudices and denials of the humanity and needs of certain groups. And they WERE good people, essentially, until challenged on deeper than the superficial. There might be a singular incident that triggers the real person underneath, as if their face was a mask most of the time.
Those that aren’t actively attacking or condoning violence or using derogatory language or actions, don’t consider themselves part of a problem. Effectively making it a BIGGER problem.
And extension of evil prevailing when good people do nothing, as it were.
Note that those calling for such dominionism/Christianism…are more of the same people. So entitled and distant from EVER experience real deprivation and threat to their basic human and Constitutional freedoms.
That is to say, a majority of them are white, Christian, male, heterosexual and are of all ages.
You’d think they weren’t already dominating all of our financial, media, political, industrial, religious and foreign policies.
You’d think they’d never been responsible for a lot of ruination, and suffering.
You’d think that their successes didn’t come from either support from the rest of us, or at our expense.
But instead are claiming to be victims of the rest of us who aren’t willing to sit by and take this dominance as a given.
At any rate, we’ve seen pogroms initiated to try and eliminate the usual irritants to such ideals before.
They all have a name and it’s rejected by the very people having this on their wish lists.
It’s not hard to see that when those irritants are engaged as respected allies, rather than dehumanized intruders, everything is better.
Sad that they don’t recognize that for what it is.
Something as God given to us, as their lives are to them.
I am starting to feel surrounded. I am just now starting to understand how athiests feel.
Bookmarked. Thank you, Mr. Throckmorton.
I’m way too secular to understand this kind of mentality, or maybe just too much of a foreigner. The mind boggles…
There is no question that the theonomists are faithfully adhering to the Holy Bible. I say that as someone who has studied the works of RJ Rushdoony, the father of theonomy, and has read his seminal work The Institutes of Biblical Law.
What the reprobate minds of pseudo-Christians like members of NAR cannot grasp is that the implementation of God’s law is not optional. Enlow may not “endorse” this approach, and Wagner may declare that his “position” that “this is not a good way to do it.” But their endorsements and positions have absolutely no authority in this matter. Lev. 20:13 is the authority. Absent a specific statement in the New Testament prohibiting such the death penalty for homosexuals – and there is none – the penalty remains in effect. The same goes true for the penalties for adultery, fornication, rape, idolatry, and witchcraft.
However, the total number of Americans who would actually be executed is far less than is generally predicted. It is simply untrue that a majority of Americans would be put to death. In practical terms, the kill rate would initially be very high, but would decrease as the general deterrent effect of God’s law took hold. We chart this as a concave slope, with the x-axis representing the period of time in which God’s law is in effect and the y-axis as the total number of death sentences issued.
Significantly, the theonomist legal structure would not be imposed retroactively, so sinning Americans would be on notice to get their affairs set right and cease wrongful activity before the new legal order takes effect. Obviously, continuing violations, such as a post-divorce “second marriage” that was consummated before the implementation of theonomy, would be subject to the full penalty. Given both the deterrent effect of public executions and the notice period and absence of retroactivity, it is unlikely that any more than 15-25% of the adult population would actually be put to death. This is no worse than the the mortality rate for plagues in ancient times. The difference is that while ancient societies incurred such a toll as the result of disease, the deaths resulting from the implementation of God’s Word would be curative for society as a whole.
As Rusdoony teaches, Christians are called to obey God and God’s Word. Our own judgments and sentimental impulses do not supersede the Bible. Ultimately, even the non-Christian would rejoice to live under a legal system founded on God’s Word.
Thanks Zoe Brain… sadly this kind of thing happens every day. Even in supposedly queer friendly seattle metro area..
signed
yet another seatown transgendered person…
the prison system is an automatic death sentence – as you know.
our system is sick. people are sick. and the T holocaust (that *is* the appropriate term) continues unabated – even in 2011.
i haz a sad… i also bought a house in mexico in the middle of nowehere to escape the stupid puritans .. fuck everybody, but I’ll take the voodoo catholics over the wasps any day…
I wish I didn’t have to feel that way.
Thanks for being a decent human being…
really.
StraightGrandmother – and others – please have a read of this one to see how *I* feel.
If a transgender person is murdered and no one notices, did it happen?
Then have a look at the comments here if you want to know how many religious people view trans people. We’re lucky if they just want us dead, without being tortured first. And while these are a minority in the US, those who hold such views number in the millions.
Based on this line from Wagner:
I suspect you’re being a bit too generous about NAR being “squeamish” – the line above seems like a veiled reference to extrajudicial mob violence; in other words, Wagner knows it would be politically unpopular to actually *call* for executions, but if some people get lynched that’s not the state’s fault…
Zoe Brain# ~ Aug 29, 2011 at 11:04 pm
“There are a lot who genuinely believe that hurricane Irene was caused by the direct intervention of God to punish NY for legalising same-sex marriage.”
Whenever I hear something like this I am reminded of a quote from Cheryl Jacques (former MA state rep) circa 2006:
“Since MA has enacted same-sex marriage, we’ve won 2 superbowls and a world series. Hardly an indication that God is mad at us.”
Some symptoms – from the Tennessee County Sheriff’s Handbook dealing with Intersex people awaiting trial:
Get mugged, and the odds are 1 in 3 that you’ll be arrested for assault, disorderly conduct, or “nonviolently resisting arrest” while in intensive care. Sure, the charges will almost certainly be thrown out if you come to trial, but first you must survive up to 5 years in custody before then.
Maybe I am jsut not well read enough but I don’t knw anybody else who brings such interesting topics such as homosexuality, politics and religions together in such interesting ways. Throckmorton never fails to interest me with his insights.
Admitting my ignorence here I never even knew that modern day self appointed Apostles existed. It kind of reminds me of Napolean crowning himself Emporer. These people have an oversized ego, and who are the nut jobs that folllow them? It is all so surreal. I listened to the NPR broadcast that Warren linked to in an earlier post about Dominionism, that to I never knew existed. It is like there is this culture that I do not participate in that I am not even aware of exists.
I strongly object to this quote from Atlanta pastor, Johnny Enlow, “I personally believe that most who suffer from homosexual feelings are worthy of great compassion because as a rule it tells us they have suffered some significant traumas in their lives”
That statement perpetuates a myth about people who are gay, lesbian, bi-sexual or transgender, more or less that they are damaged goods. I find it to be very patronizing and not reflective of the gays, lesbians, bi-sexual and transgender people I know.
I could go on and on about the other quotations, all are facially wrong.
I really think the Kingdom of God is within us. Let other people either in or let them go. We don’t have to do anything with other people’s lives. And mind our own business.
Good comments Mary.
Warren, I don’t want to exaggerate the extent of the problem. If I was truly concerned about the threat level, I’d be talking to the police, and if in my estimation they weren’t doing enough to reduce the risk to acceptable levels, taking other action.
There are a lot of people in the USA who believe in young earth creationism. There are a lot who genuinely believe that hurricane Irene was caused by the direct intervention of God to punish NY for legalising same-sex marriage. And rather more who just say that, without actually believing, but that’s neither here nor there, and except for being enablers, they’re not the problem.
There are a lot of people who have not been exposed to anything other than a monoculture of ideas at home-school. Who believe in Ghosts, and Evil Spirits, and Demonic possession. Again, it’s arguable whether many truly believe it, or they’d be doing something concrete about it, involving explosives and bullets rather than prayer and holy relics and rituals.
But there’s enough who do use explosives or bullets, or more often, their position of power as judges, police, prison guards and the like to indulge their sadistic impulses on those they consider the Ungodly. They can engage in the most cruel torture, and it’s all OK because God is on their side.
I’m Intersex. Born with a body neither wholly male nor female. I changed apparent sex, from looking (mostly) male at birth to looking (mostly) female later. That (unlike most Intersex conditions which are indetectable except through a laboratory) can’t be ignored.
Intersex as a phenomenon contradicts the literal word of the Bible just as thoroughly as the sciences of astronomy and meteorology do when it comes to “firmaments”, the “waters above”. and “storehouses of hail and snow”. Unlike the latter though, this is not purely an academic matter.
My existence is a challenge to their beliefs – and as they see it, a chellenge to God Almighty. They “know” what God says, so I cannot be what I appear to be, I must be some kind of product of Satan, if not actually the physical embodiment of a Demonic entity.
Most will just say that, without really believing it. But some do more than that, they truly believe that I’m not human, not a person, but a malevolent entity who poses a threat to them and their children. Even if I don’t attack them directly, a Righteous and Merciful God will punish them, their families, their friends and neighbours, even their whole nation, should they not destroy me. They have to, it’s just self-defence in their eyes. And of course, since I’m not human, destroying my Earthly form can’t be murder, can it?
Those of us who have Intersex conditions that are publicly known about have 17 times the rate of being murder victims compared to those whose situation is not known.
I’m in Australia. The threat level from religious fanatics is low here. Parts of the USA it’s not. Pretty much everyone knows someone whose house has been firebombed, or who have been put in an ER or the morgue in the Bible Belt. Police investigation is rarer in those places than the police being involved in the attack, and there’s little if any reporting on it.
In the majority of the US, such things don’t happen, or if they do, are investigated and reported on, I mustn’t overstate the case. But in the more conservative backwoods, it’s more the rule than the exception, and remains unpublicised. There’s more Fanatics, be they “dominionists” or “reconstructionists” or what-have-you than you realise. They’re livestock for the vampirical charlatans, the mega-churches and millionaire preachers that feed on their donations, and carefully cultivate their existence.
25 people, Christian and Muslim, who believe this kind of thing.
Of course there’s plenty of under-reported violence against Intersex and Trans children apart from that by Religious Nutters.
But this isn’t a “Hate Crime” according to the police.
The case is listed as “inactive” and the police are not investigating.
Source
This is why the number of reported hate crimes is so low.
Isn’t there a difference between dominance and making others submit? Jesus never did that.
Regan,
I do have to disagree with you in part. I don’t think that dominionists fall into the category of prejudice.
I don’t fault those who hold prejudice, to the extent that they are unaware or unintentional. We all have prejudice and without conscious thought make assumptions about others based on what we think we know about “the kind of person” that they are.
Prejudice is not hate, nor malice, nor ill will. It is often simply ignorance and can even be accompanied by self congratulations about how non-bigoted and open minded one is.
The best discussion of this I’ve been exposed to was when San Diego Mayor Jerry Sanders (R) testified at the Prop 8 trials. He spoke about the moment when he ceased thinking civil unions were good enough and decided to support marriage (he had actually called a press conference to explain why he was vetoing the city’s endorsement of marriage, broke into tears, and endorsed it instead).
He had no animus towards gay people; rather, he felt proud of his support. But old childhood-built presumptions still lingered in the form of prejudice. Civil unions were “good enough”; they resolved the problem of equal rights and everyone was happy. Until he listened and heard what “that’s good enough for people like you” really meant.
Dominionists are not absent of malice. They are not open to how “good enough for people like you” sounds. They don’t care how it sounds.
Because dominionism has nothing to do with the people whom they are putting under their dominion. People are inconsequential. So it matters little whether they are experiencing merely prejudice or bold hatred.
It isn’t their prejudice I fear, it’s their certainty.
Zoe Brain# ~ Sep 2, 2011 at 10:54 am
“ken# – with respect – it means that any teenager who commits a planned and pre-meditating slaying of a trans teen won’t be punished for it.”
Really, any one anywhere? By your logic, since OJ got off, it means any celebrity anywhere can murder his spouse and won’t be punished for it. I think Phil Spector might disagree.
“All they have to do is say they were being sexually harassed. No need for witnesses or evidence. ”
The gay panic defense didn’t work in the Matthew Shepard case. And I suspect the “trans panic defense” will die out even faster.
This was a tragic case (children killing children always is). And McInerney’s attorney’s played that for all it was worth. However, I think if the prosecutor had tried this in juvenile court (where think the case should have been from the start) there would have been a much different outcome. As it is, I suspect there will not be a re-trial, but a plea-deal reached.
and yes, there is a still a great deal of discrimination against transpeople. However, making these kinds of hyperbolic claims doesn’t help. it just means people will brush you off as an irrational person making irrational claims.
I was lucky.
My parents got me out of there before I was thrown under a train. Another kid wasn’t so lucky, a “tragic accident” involving a bus.
The worst I got was a fractured skull and some broken ribs. I was 8 at the time.
I’ve been there. I also deliberately ambushed one of my 12 yr old tormenters, and quite methodically broke his collarbone. I didn’t consider killing him because it wasn’t necessary, I just wanted him disabled. Had it been necessary…. I don’t know. Had I had access to a gun, I would have shot a dozen.
I can forgive the broken ribs, the crushed sinus, the nose broken in 3 places (the last one actually straightened it out a bit). I can’t forgive them for turning me into a hunted, desperate animal that would have killed other children if need be.
Sorry, you have no idea of the reality trans kids live. I can’t even blame you for not believing it, it’s so far out of your experience.
Zoe, thank you for sharing as much of this as you’ve done. I have to admit, quite honestly, that I’ve never given much consideration to transgender, intersex persons. Why? I never spent the time to understand because I don’t know if I’ve ever met a transgender or intersex person.
I really thank you for letting me enter this world. You’re a remarkable person, Zoe; and, one of the most remarkable of your gifts is your ‘Christian’ attitude (w/o being a Christian). Having been through what you’ve gone through in your life … I would probably be in jail, a psychiatric ward, or dead. You are so genuinely gracious, considerate, understanding … virtues I can only admire.
At the time of Christ, they were looking for a savior. Someone who would raise up an army and defeat the Romans and establish a holy and godly kingdom.
When Jesus came, he wasn’t recognized or accepted. He spoke of a deliverance that was not of a political nature. His freedom was not from the Romans, but from the Law. He delivered the heart and soul, not the body.
But the caretakers of the Law, those who were not burdened by it but who burdened others, weren’t looking for any break in the relationship between sin and consequence. It was “repentance” by means of animal or grain that was their income and their power and their influence. And Jesus’ teachings – as illustrated by his sacrifice – broke that connection and destroyed their power.
Jesus brought about the kingdom of God – located not in temporal civil buildings or bureaucracies, but in the spirit and heart.
Those who seek to reinstate the Law of Sin and Death – the establishment of civil punishment for moral crimes – are not furthering Christ’s message. They are not bringing about the kingdom of God.
Rather, they are anti-Christ. They opposed everything he stood for.
ken# – with respect – it means that any teenager who commits a planned and pre-meditating slaying of a trans teen won’t be punished for it.
Either they get charged as a juvenile – and then the defence spins out the trial and appeal process so long that they turn 18 so are released before they spend a day in detention (the killer turns 18 in january, so if he’d been charged as a juvenile, the case would be mooted) – or they get charged as an adult, so never get convicted.
All they have to do is say they were being sexually harassed. No need for witnesses or evidence.
The thing that caused a “fugue state”? The victim mentioned she was changing her name.
THAT was what the defence said was enough to make a reasonable person snap and kill. And 7 out of 12 of the jurors bought it. It only takes one.
I really hope the DA moves for a retrial. I’d be surprised if he doesn’t – but may not, as I don’t think the odds of getting a conviction will change, and the facts don’t justify a charge other than pre-meditated murder.
If we’re lucky, only a few more trans kids will die. If not, there’ll be repeats of Columbine.
Trans kids know now that if another kid tells them they will kill them, that nothing will be done. That they are as good as dead if they can’t get out of there. That they *will* die. The only question is – do they take out their tormentors as they go? Maybe save someone else’s life? Their own is already forfeit no matter what they do, they literally have nothing to lose.
As I said, California law says that when a teen “lies in wait” to kill someone, there is no “prosecutorial discretion”. It is Murder in the First Degree with special circumstances, and that means “mandatory automatic adult criminal court jurisdiction” for those age 14 and over.
California Penal Code Section 189 defining first degree murder and 190.2(16) specifying “special circumstances”
http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/189.html etc
Proposition 21 was passed in 2000.
The facts uncontested by the defence admitted no other choice.
Whether the law should say that is another matter, and one I’d probably agree with you on. Circumstances alter cases, and the killer should be given every chance to reform. Personally, I don’t think he will, not in 25 years nor in 50, but you have to try.
I would have given him Life, but with parole possible as soon as he turned 25, and so having to leave the Youth Correction system. That’s not a possibility though, the law doesn’t allow that.
ken# ~ Sep 5, 2011 at 12:28 pm
” “That means he gets off.”
Possibly, or the prosecutor cuts a deal with him. Or puts it back in juvenile court (where I believe it should have been in the 1st place). ”
Just as a quick followup:
McInerney plead out and will serve 25 years for the murder of King.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/21/justice/california-gay-student-killing/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Although, I still believe this case should have been handled in juvenile court.
As I said, California law says that when a teen “lies in wait” to kill someone, there is no “prosecutorial discretion”. It is Murder in the First Degree with special circumstances, and that means “mandatory automatic adult criminal court jurisdiction” for those age 14 and over.
California Penal Code Section 189 defining first degree murder and 190.2(16) specifying “special circumstances”
http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/189.html etc
Proposition 21 was passed in 2000.
The facts uncontested by the defence admitted no other choice.
Whether the law should say that is another matter, and one I’d probably agree with you on. Circumstances alter cases, and the killer should be given every chance to reform. Personally, I don’t think he will, not in 25 years nor in 50, but you have to try.
I would have given him Life, but with parole possible as soon as he turned 25, and so having to leave the Youth Correction system. That’s not a possibility though, the law doesn’t allow that.
ken# ~ Sep 5, 2011 at 12:28 pm
” “That means he gets off.”
Possibly, or the prosecutor cuts a deal with him. Or puts it back in juvenile court (where I believe it should have been in the 1st place). ”
Just as a quick followup:
McInerney plead out and will serve 25 years for the murder of King.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/21/justice/california-gay-student-killing/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Although, I still believe this case should have been handled in juvenile court.
Prof. Throckmorton: “Based on these statements, dominionists in the NAR tradition want to discourage homosexuality from a national platform but are squeamish about “severe sanctions” like death.”
Well, they were working with people in Uganda, urging them to get tough on gay people, which resulted in a death-penalty law at least being introduced.
*After*, *after* they got caught and this was made public, they walked it back. Now, private communications from before this which urged against the death penalty would be plausible. Right now it is more likely that they went to far, and have to draw their public position down.
Prof. Throckmorton: “Based on these statements, dominionists in the NAR tradition want to discourage homosexuality from a national platform but are squeamish about “severe sanctions” like death.”
Well, they were working with people in Uganda, urging them to get tough on gay people, which resulted in a death-penalty law at least being introduced.
*After*, *after* they got caught and this was made public, they walked it back. Now, private communications from before this which urged against the death penalty would be plausible. Right now it is more likely that they went to far, and have to draw their public position down.
@ William
Well put, brother!
@Richard, thank you for including what I left out about Dominionism not being Christian , I was thinking of it in terms of what Dominionists always appeal to, The Bible- and though I am non-denominational, and though I am preety much fundamentalist and charismatic, I see NOTHING in that scripture about Dominionism when takens as a whole, and indeed more so if we live by the NEW Covenant of grace- TRUE bibilical chrisitans take the WHOLE word of God rightly dividing it. Takin one verse or a handful does not cut it. Like a symphony or a poem, leave a word or phrase out and it diminishes it, indeed discounts it.
I like what you had to say about the temptations Jesus faced, to use power for personal gain, and the Pharisee party of those days were doing the same thing, trying to force God’s hand to bring about the kingdom. Today, their descendants the Dominionists are doing the same thing, trying to force God’s hand and make Jesus come back now rather than in His own perfect timing, and in His own perfect way- for some reason, these dominionists seem to think they are supposed to do that- not what Christ said at all about the matter. We are to be salt and light, not sulfuric acid and darkness. And you are right, NO one does it perfectly, because no one can, it’s the whole reason for Jesus’ miossion in the first place, because NO ONE can keep the law 24/7- even the scripture states that “a righteous man falls seven times a day”. Thank God for offering His wonderous gift to the world!
@ William
Well put, brother!
@Richard, thank you for including what I left out about Dominionism not being Christian , I was thinking of it in terms of what Dominionists always appeal to, The Bible- and though I am non-denominational, and though I am preety much fundamentalist and charismatic, I see NOTHING in that scripture about Dominionism when takens as a whole, and indeed more so if we live by the NEW Covenant of grace- TRUE bibilical chrisitans take the WHOLE word of God rightly dividing it. Takin one verse or a handful does not cut it. Like a symphony or a poem, leave a word or phrase out and it diminishes it, indeed discounts it.
I like what you had to say about the temptations Jesus faced, to use power for personal gain, and the Pharisee party of those days were doing the same thing, trying to force God’s hand to bring about the kingdom. Today, their descendants the Dominionists are doing the same thing, trying to force God’s hand and make Jesus come back now rather than in His own perfect timing, and in His own perfect way- for some reason, these dominionists seem to think they are supposed to do that- not what Christ said at all about the matter. We are to be salt and light, not sulfuric acid and darkness. And you are right, NO one does it perfectly, because no one can, it’s the whole reason for Jesus’ miossion in the first place, because NO ONE can keep the law 24/7- even the scripture states that “a righteous man falls seven times a day”. Thank God for offering His wonderous gift to the world!
@ William :
Indeed – ‘dominionism’ is neither biblical nor Christian (which encompasses so much more than just what is ‘in the Bible’ – as implied in John 21 : 25).
In a way, the second (in Luke) or third (in Matthew) temptation of Christ is relevant here. Jesus was tempted to achieve God’s ends (taking possession of what had been created through him) by using the Evil One’s means. He resisted that temptation, of course – and in the end it cost him dearly. He calls his followers to emulate his pattern; many of us don’t do it very well, I fear – but at least we should try. ‘Dominionists’ appear totally unconscious of this calling; in fact, they appear to deny it completely.
Dominionism is NOT biblical! Scripture tells us quite clearly that 1) Unless the LORD build the house, the laborers labor in vain, and 2) in Jesus’ parable of the wheat and tares, the tares are allowed to grow along side the weeds until the end of days, when God will send His angels to harvest both, and 3) Prophecy shows that only when the end of days is reached, and Jesus returns again, will HE establish his kingdom, not some half-crazed lunatic who PRETENDS to be a Christian to further his own agenda rather than the Lord’s.
Indeed the whole thrust of evangelical Christianity is that God is a gentleman, He never forces us to come to Him, he tries to get our attention in many ways, but if He were to force us, we would not be loving Him, rather we would be obedient out of sheer terror, so why do these “dominionists seek to usurp God’s ways and instead use THEIR ways to do what THEY want?- It is not in God’s character and it should NOT be in ANY Christian’s character to think they know better than the Lord and His word to us. Dominionists are nothing more than right-wing wolves in sheep’s clothing!
Zoe Brain# ~ Sep 3, 2011 at 3:17 am
“In California, the prosecutor does not have discretion to try a 14 yr old as anything other than an adult when the charge is 1st degree murder.”
Do you have anything to support this claim that the prosecutor had no discretion in trying McInerney as an adult. My understanding was that the prosecutor chose to try McInerney as an adult
From:
http://www.vcstar.com/news/2008/aug/08/mcinerney-pleads-not-guilty/
“The plea came two weeks after the defense lost its challenge of a voter initiative that gave prosecutors sole discretion to file homicide charges in adult court against youths as young as 14.” (emphasis added)
contradicts your claim that the prosecutor had no choice but to file in adult court.
“That means he gets off.”
Possibly, or the prosecutor cuts a deal with him. Or puts it back in juvenile court (where I believe it should have been in the 1st place).
Did transphobia play a part in the jury being hung? Probably, However, so did McInerney’s age, race, and appearance. How much did each of these (and other) factors contribute? I don’t know, and I suspect neither do you Zoe. But your emotional attachment to this case prevents you from being unbiased enough to see that.
Nor does this outcome mean that “anyone, anywhere” can kill a transgendered person and get away with it.
@ William :
Indeed – ‘dominionism’ is neither biblical nor Christian (which encompasses so much more than just what is ‘in the Bible’ – as implied in John 21 : 25).
In a way, the second (in Luke) or third (in Matthew) temptation of Christ is relevant here. Jesus was tempted to achieve God’s ends (taking possession of what had been created through him) by using the Evil One’s means. He resisted that temptation, of course – and in the end it cost him dearly. He calls his followers to emulate his pattern; many of us don’t do it very well, I fear – but at least we should try. ‘Dominionists’ appear totally unconscious of this calling; in fact, they appear to deny it completely.
Dominionism is NOT biblical! Scripture tells us quite clearly that 1) Unless the LORD build the house, the laborers labor in vain, and 2) in Jesus’ parable of the wheat and tares, the tares are allowed to grow along side the weeds until the end of days, when God will send His angels to harvest both, and 3) Prophecy shows that only when the end of days is reached, and Jesus returns again, will HE establish his kingdom, not some half-crazed lunatic who PRETENDS to be a Christian to further his own agenda rather than the Lord’s.
Indeed the whole thrust of evangelical Christianity is that God is a gentleman, He never forces us to come to Him, he tries to get our attention in many ways, but if He were to force us, we would not be loving Him, rather we would be obedient out of sheer terror, so why do these “dominionists seek to usurp God’s ways and instead use THEIR ways to do what THEY want?- It is not in God’s character and it should NOT be in ANY Christian’s character to think they know better than the Lord and His word to us. Dominionists are nothing more than right-wing wolves in sheep’s clothing!
Zoe Brain# ~ Sep 3, 2011 at 3:17 am
“In California, the prosecutor does not have discretion to try a 14 yr old as anything other than an adult when the charge is 1st degree murder.”
Do you have anything to support this claim that the prosecutor had no discretion in trying McInerney as an adult. My understanding was that the prosecutor chose to try McInerney as an adult
From:
http://www.vcstar.com/news/2008/aug/08/mcinerney-pleads-not-guilty/
“The plea came two weeks after the defense lost its challenge of a voter initiative that gave prosecutors sole discretion to file homicide charges in adult court against youths as young as 14.” (emphasis added)
contradicts your claim that the prosecutor had no choice but to file in adult court.
“That means he gets off.”
Possibly, or the prosecutor cuts a deal with him. Or puts it back in juvenile court (where I believe it should have been in the 1st place).
Did transphobia play a part in the jury being hung? Probably, However, so did McInerney’s age, race, and appearance. How much did each of these (and other) factors contribute? I don’t know, and I suspect neither do you Zoe. But your emotional attachment to this case prevents you from being unbiased enough to see that.
Nor does this outcome mean that “anyone, anywhere” can kill a transgendered person and get away with it.
Amen!
And the beat goes on.
Apologies for the theological rant, but one finds this idolatry and/or heresy on the part of these ‘dominionists’ most distressing. It is the fons et origo of all their other stuff.
Mary
My view is that these ‘dominionists’ are not Christians; they might be more accurately described as ‘book/bible-worshippers’. Here’s a quote from ‘apostle’ Wagner (not to be confused with the composer!):
“The one major rule governing any new revelation from God is that it cannot contradict what has already been written in the Bible. It may supplement it, however.”
Breath-taking when you think about! God can do exactly as he pleases*!!!
(* Fortunately for us, what it pleases God to do is a function of his nature, revealed – so we Christians believe – in the One who is the Human Face of God.)
That’s a broad statement. But I certainly do understand and see how some christians don’t seem to be towing the line from someone else’s perspective.
Amen!
And the beat goes on.
Apologies for the theological rant, but one finds this idolatry and/or heresy on the part of these ‘dominionists’ most distressing. It is the fons et origo of all their other stuff.
Ken, your calling Zoe’s reaction hyperbolic, was extreme in insensitivity to the kind of physical threat gay and trans children are under. It’s very close to Jim Crow justice
in this way.
Gay males, like black males during Jim Crow are libeled with having unnatural, voracious and predatory sexuality. Black males attracted to white females, gay males to ANY kind of male. Who lack so little restraint over themselves, that casual contact is rendered impossible between any of these parties. And it’s been the gay/black males who have found themselves lynched over the mere ACCUSATION, of having made some kind of unwanted advance.
The gay panic defense assumes that to make the violent reaction plausible, Larry MUST have made a pass or done SOMETHING provocative. Therefore not only making Brian’s reaction expected, but UNDERSTANDABLE.
This dismisses and denies the indoctrination of hate and distrust of gay males so intense, that the mere presence of a suspected gay male is provocation enough.
The way this murder is being discussed, Brian is the victim of harassment here. Completely changing up the fact that it was HE who bullied, harassed and threatened Larry for months.
Larry was much smaller and slightly built. In no way was he a physical match to confront Brian. Nor could he have avoided Brian on such a small campus.
Larry simply wasn’t a SHY boy. He had exceptional singing talent, and was extroverted.
This can easily offend and provoke a hater.
To put the onus of controlling the anger of a hater on the gay kid, is also typical of the bigotry that fed it.
To put the onus of harassment on the victim of an execution is ludicrous.
It’s as if a gay person is supposed to know what is in the heart of someone, and they can avoid being assaulted if they just try.
This is dismissing and denying the facts and history of hate crimes and their impetus.
And the lack of justice for it’s victims that inspired hate crimes laws.
The defense in this murder trial is telling the jury that King should have EXPECTED to be assaulted, and that Brian’s reaction was UNDERSTANDABLE.
Was the murder of Emmett Till understandable?
Sakia Gunn, Scotty Joe Weaver, Freddy Martinez…the list goes on and on of young gay/trans murder victims barely old enough to drive.
Were their murders without merit to report so that people will know how widespread it is?
Or are you going to call it hyperbole.
Emmett Till’s mother had his body exposed in a glass coffin. She wanted the world to see what hate could do TO A CHILD.
It was ghastly, monstrous what his features looked like.
And she was vilified for doing it.
But if she hadn’t the weight and expanse of the kinds of violence that people like to think a suspect minority DESERVES would never have come to light.
It’s because those who choose to ignore it, or think that it’s just hyperbole to discuss it, prefer to wait until something so graphic and undeniable has to be put right under their noses before they acknowledge it’s true.
And then resent that it is.
Children are dying out there. Whether they ARE gay, or just perceived as so.
Children are being taught that the lives of gay people are worthless and that gay people are always suspect, threatening, predatory and aggressive. There is no such thing as an innocent gay person, just like a segregationist was convinced there was no such thing as an innocent black person.
And it’s people like you ken, who refuse to see.
Therefore making this drag out longer than it ever should.
Mary
My view is that these ‘dominionists’ are not Christians; they might be more accurately described as ‘book/bible-worshippers’. Here’s a quote from ‘apostle’ Wagner (not to be confused with the composer!):
“The one major rule governing any new revelation from God is that it cannot contradict what has already been written in the Bible. It may supplement it, however.”
Breath-taking when you think about! God can do exactly as he pleases*!!!
(* Fortunately for us, what it pleases God to do is a function of his nature, revealed – so we Christians believe – in the One who is the Human Face of God.)
That’s a broad statement. But I certainly do understand and see how some christians don’t seem to be towing the line from someone else’s perspective.
Ken, your calling Zoe’s reaction hyperbolic, was extreme in insensitivity to the kind of physical threat gay and trans children are under. It’s very close to Jim Crow justice
in this way.
Gay males, like black males during Jim Crow are libeled with having unnatural, voracious and predatory sexuality. Black males attracted to white females, gay males to ANY kind of male. Who lack so little restraint over themselves, that casual contact is rendered impossible between any of these parties. And it’s been the gay/black males who have found themselves lynched over the mere ACCUSATION, of having made some kind of unwanted advance.
The gay panic defense assumes that to make the violent reaction plausible, Larry MUST have made a pass or done SOMETHING provocative. Therefore not only making Brian’s reaction expected, but UNDERSTANDABLE.
This dismisses and denies the indoctrination of hate and distrust of gay males so intense, that the mere presence of a suspected gay male is provocation enough.
The way this murder is being discussed, Brian is the victim of harassment here. Completely changing up the fact that it was HE who bullied, harassed and threatened Larry for months.
Larry was much smaller and slightly built. In no way was he a physical match to confront Brian. Nor could he have avoided Brian on such a small campus.
Larry simply wasn’t a SHY boy. He had exceptional singing talent, and was extroverted.
This can easily offend and provoke a hater.
To put the onus of controlling the anger of a hater on the gay kid, is also typical of the bigotry that fed it.
To put the onus of harassment on the victim of an execution is ludicrous.
It’s as if a gay person is supposed to know what is in the heart of someone, and they can avoid being assaulted if they just try.
This is dismissing and denying the facts and history of hate crimes and their impetus.
And the lack of justice for it’s victims that inspired hate crimes laws.
The defense in this murder trial is telling the jury that King should have EXPECTED to be assaulted, and that Brian’s reaction was UNDERSTANDABLE.
Was the murder of Emmett Till understandable?
Sakia Gunn, Scotty Joe Weaver, Freddy Martinez…the list goes on and on of young gay/trans murder victims barely old enough to drive.
Were their murders without merit to report so that people will know how widespread it is?
Or are you going to call it hyperbole.
Emmett Till’s mother had his body exposed in a glass coffin. She wanted the world to see what hate could do TO A CHILD.
It was ghastly, monstrous what his features looked like.
And she was vilified for doing it.
But if she hadn’t the weight and expanse of the kinds of violence that people like to think a suspect minority DESERVES would never have come to light.
It’s because those who choose to ignore it, or think that it’s just hyperbole to discuss it, prefer to wait until something so graphic and undeniable has to be put right under their noses before they acknowledge it’s true.
And then resent that it is.
Children are dying out there. Whether they ARE gay, or just perceived as so.
Children are being taught that the lives of gay people are worthless and that gay people are always suspect, threatening, predatory and aggressive. There is no such thing as an innocent gay person, just like a segregationist was convinced there was no such thing as an innocent black person.
And it’s people like you ken, who refuse to see.
Therefore making this drag out longer than it ever should.
Of course, Manning might just be ‘spoofing’. I do hope so – I fear for his mental balance if he is not! (He needs to study history: past attempts to terrorize societies into ‘perfection’ have always ended in oceans of both blood and tears.)
I’ve just seen Edward Manning’s comment! He starts be saying this:
“There is no question that the theonomists are faithfully adhering to the Holy Bible.”
But I reckon that most Christians would take the view that they have abandoned Jesus.
Then he goes on to ‘reassure’ us that the ‘slaughter rate’ in a theonomist dispensation might be as low as 15% of the adult population (he does not give an estimate for children). My goodness!
Worse of all, he sets out his argument in a manner than appears to be sweetly reasonable – in the best passive aggressive tradition.
In a sense, Manning’s essential problem is summed up by his first few words “there is no question …” Wrong – life is full of questions!
Ken# –
In California, anyone, anywhere, yes.
A killer tells multiple witnesses he’s going to kill his victim. Several days later, He procures a gun – even goes back for it when he realises he doesn’t have it with him. He waits for the right moment, after at least 20 minutes, and executes the victim by a shot in the back of the head. The same method his heroes, the schoolboy Hitler Youth SS division, used on Jews and other enemies of the state. With a coup de grace additional shot later just to make sure.
He admits that he doesn’t consider the victim to be human. He boasts to his father that he killed a Gay the way he was taught to. The father later suicides.
This crime is not considered by 7 out of 12 Californians to be pre-meditated murder. It’s not considered by any of the 12 to be based on bias against Trans people.
In California, the prosecutor does not have discretion to try a 14 yr old as anything other than an adult when the charge is 1st degree murder.
The facts don’t support any other charge, so there’s no latitude there.
A “life sentence” for a juvenile requires release before age 25.
Any defence team can spin out the trial, mistrial, appeal etc process beyond 11 years.
No jury in California will convict a 14 year old for 1st degree murder being tried as an adult just for killing a transgender.
That means he gets off.
Note that if the killing wasn’t obviously pre-meditated, and admitted to be so, then there is a chance that a conviction on a lesser charge could be procured. But when the killer is a “teenager who commits a planned and pre-meditating slaying of a trans teen”, conviction is impossible in California.
We saw the “trans panic” defence in California in the Gwen Araujo killing. It worked then too. A law was passed due to that, the AB 1160: Gwen Araujo Justice for Victims Act that was supposed to prevent a “trans panic” defence.
http://www.eqca.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=kuLRJ9MRKrH&b=4025853&ct=5196353
It doesn’t.
Of course, Manning might just be ‘spoofing’. I do hope so – I fear for his mental balance if he is not! (He needs to study history: past attempts to terrorize societies into ‘perfection’ have always ended in oceans of both blood and tears.)
I’ve just seen Edward Manning’s comment! He starts be saying this:
“There is no question that the theonomists are faithfully adhering to the Holy Bible.”
But I reckon that most Christians would take the view that they have abandoned Jesus.
Then he goes on to ‘reassure’ us that the ‘slaughter rate’ in a theonomist dispensation might be as low as 15% of the adult population (he does not give an estimate for children). My goodness!
Worse of all, he sets out his argument in a manner than appears to be sweetly reasonable – in the best passive aggressive tradition.
In a sense, Manning’s essential problem is summed up by his first few words “there is no question …” Wrong – life is full of questions!
Ken# –
In California, anyone, anywhere, yes.
A killer tells multiple witnesses he’s going to kill his victim. Several days later, He procures a gun – even goes back for it when he realises he doesn’t have it with him. He waits for the right moment, after at least 20 minutes, and executes the victim by a shot in the back of the head. The same method his heroes, the schoolboy Hitler Youth SS division, used on Jews and other enemies of the state. With a coup de grace additional shot later just to make sure.
He admits that he doesn’t consider the victim to be human. He boasts to his father that he killed a Gay the way he was taught to. The father later suicides.
This crime is not considered by 7 out of 12 Californians to be pre-meditated murder. It’s not considered by any of the 12 to be based on bias against Trans people.
In California, the prosecutor does not have discretion to try a 14 yr old as anything other than an adult when the charge is 1st degree murder.
The facts don’t support any other charge, so there’s no latitude there.
A “life sentence” for a juvenile requires release before age 25.
Any defence team can spin out the trial, mistrial, appeal etc process beyond 11 years.
No jury in California will convict a 14 year old for 1st degree murder being tried as an adult just for killing a transgender.
That means he gets off.
Note that if the killing wasn’t obviously pre-meditated, and admitted to be so, then there is a chance that a conviction on a lesser charge could be procured. But when the killer is a “teenager who commits a planned and pre-meditating slaying of a trans teen”, conviction is impossible in California.
We saw the “trans panic” defence in California in the Gwen Araujo killing. It worked then too. A law was passed due to that, the AB 1160: Gwen Araujo Justice for Victims Act that was supposed to prevent a “trans panic” defence.
http://www.eqca.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=kuLRJ9MRKrH&b=4025853&ct=5196353
It doesn’t.
Timothy
I think you make some excellent points here. We are all prejudiced, but the key point about ‘dominionism’ is the wielding of political power.
I’ll be perfectly honest: I have reservations about the use of the term ‘Marriage’ in any sense other than that which is deemed to be a Sacrament of the Church. My own preference would be for the state to provide civil unions/partnerships for everyone, leaving churches free to ‘marry’ whomever they saw fit. However, I doubt this idea has much support and – given that – I do in practice support the idea of ‘gay marriage’ on similar grounds to those expressed by Sanders.
Although we are moving towards providing for (civil) same-sex marriage in the UK, the pressure for this is probably less evident than in the US. This may be because same-sex civil partnerships really are the legal equivalent to (civil) marriages (the rights and responsibilities associated with both are identical*, right down to the newly introduced ‘married couples tax break’).
* I fully support this – commitment is commitment, and is worthy of appropriate recognition under law, given that it serves the common good.
Regan,
I do have to disagree with you in part. I don’t think that dominionists fall into the category of prejudice.
I don’t fault those who hold prejudice, to the extent that they are unaware or unintentional. We all have prejudice and without conscious thought make assumptions about others based on what we think we know about “the kind of person” that they are.
Prejudice is not hate, nor malice, nor ill will. It is often simply ignorance and can even be accompanied by self congratulations about how non-bigoted and open minded one is.
The best discussion of this I’ve been exposed to was when San Diego Mayor Jerry Sanders (R) testified at the Prop 8 trials. He spoke about the moment when he ceased thinking civil unions were good enough and decided to support marriage (he had actually called a press conference to explain why he was vetoing the city’s endorsement of marriage, broke into tears, and endorsed it instead).
He had no animus towards gay people; rather, he felt proud of his support. But old childhood-built presumptions still lingered in the form of prejudice. Civil unions were “good enough”; they resolved the problem of equal rights and everyone was happy. Until he listened and heard what “that’s good enough for people like you” really meant.
Dominionists are not absent of malice. They are not open to how “good enough for people like you” sounds. They don’t care how it sounds.
Because dominionism has nothing to do with the people whom they are putting under their dominion. People are inconsequential. So it matters little whether they are experiencing merely prejudice or bold hatred.
It isn’t their prejudice I fear, it’s their certainty.
At the time of Christ, they were looking for a savior. Someone who would raise up an army and defeat the Romans and establish a holy and godly kingdom.
When Jesus came, he wasn’t recognized or accepted. He spoke of a deliverance that was not of a political nature. His freedom was not from the Romans, but from the Law. He delivered the heart and soul, not the body.
But the caretakers of the Law, those who were not burdened by it but who burdened others, weren’t looking for any break in the relationship between sin and consequence. It was “repentance” by means of animal or grain that was their income and their power and their influence. And Jesus’ teachings – as illustrated by his sacrifice – broke that connection and destroyed their power.
Jesus brought about the kingdom of God – located not in temporal civil buildings or bureaucracies, but in the spirit and heart.
Those who seek to reinstate the Law of Sin and Death – the establishment of civil punishment for moral crimes – are not furthering Christ’s message. They are not bringing about the kingdom of God.
Rather, they are anti-Christ. They opposed everything he stood for.
Timothy
I think you make some excellent points here. We are all prejudiced, but the key point about ‘dominionism’ is the wielding of political power.
I’ll be perfectly honest: I have reservations about the use of the term ‘Marriage’ in any sense other than that which is deemed to be a Sacrament of the Church. My own preference would be for the state to provide civil unions/partnerships for everyone, leaving churches free to ‘marry’ whomever they saw fit. However, I doubt this idea has much support and – given that – I do in practice support the idea of ‘gay marriage’ on similar grounds to those expressed by Sanders.
Although we are moving towards providing for (civil) same-sex marriage in the UK, the pressure for this is probably less evident than in the US. This may be because same-sex civil partnerships really are the legal equivalent to (civil) marriages (the rights and responsibilities associated with both are identical*, right down to the newly introduced ‘married couples tax break’).
* I fully support this – commitment is commitment, and is worthy of appropriate recognition under law, given that it serves the common good.
Zoe, thank you for sharing as much of this as you’ve done. I have to admit, quite honestly, that I’ve never given much consideration to transgender, intersex persons. Why? I never spent the time to understand because I don’t know if I’ve ever met a transgender or intersex person.
I really thank you for letting me enter this world. You’re a remarkable person, Zoe; and, one of the most remarkable of your gifts is your ‘Christian’ attitude (w/o being a Christian). Having been through what you’ve gone through in your life … I would probably be in jail, a psychiatric ward, or dead. You are so genuinely gracious, considerate, understanding … virtues I can only admire.
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/
(“.” not “,” in the URL)
Again, I don’t blame you. But let’s just look at what’s been reported in the last week or so.
In my neck of the woods:
Paraplegic trans woman bashed with a shovel while in her wheelchair
http://www.bordermail.com.au/news/local/news/general/bash-victim-feared-she-would-die/2278408.aspx
In yours:
The shooter was an off-duty police officer who was drunk.
Kids get assaulted all the time:
She had to have part of her skull removed to reduce the swelling – without such emergency surgery, she’d be dead.
See http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2011/08/if-a-transgender-person-is-murdered-and-no-one-notices-did-it-happen/#comments
Here’s a quote:
The incident he describes is here – http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video800.php?v=wshhihb913lf4tpu4q5m&set_size=1
Welcome to my world.
Zoe Brain# ~ Sep 2, 2011 at 10:54 am
“ken# – with respect – it means that any teenager who commits a planned and pre-meditating slaying of a trans teen won’t be punished for it.”
Really, any one anywhere? By your logic, since OJ got off, it means any celebrity anywhere can murder his spouse and won’t be punished for it. I think Phil Spector might disagree.
“All they have to do is say they were being sexually harassed. No need for witnesses or evidence. ”
The gay panic defense didn’t work in the Matthew Shepard case. And I suspect the “trans panic defense” will die out even faster.
This was a tragic case (children killing children always is). And McInerney’s attorney’s played that for all it was worth. However, I think if the prosecutor had tried this in juvenile court (where think the case should have been from the start) there would have been a much different outcome. As it is, I suspect there will not be a re-trial, but a plea-deal reached.
and yes, there is a still a great deal of discrimination against transpeople. However, making these kinds of hyperbolic claims doesn’t help. it just means people will brush you off as an irrational person making irrational claims.
I was lucky.
My parents got me out of there before I was thrown under a train. Another kid wasn’t so lucky, a “tragic accident” involving a bus.
The worst I got was a fractured skull and some broken ribs. I was 8 at the time.
I’ve been there. I also deliberately ambushed one of my 12 yr old tormenters, and quite methodically broke his collarbone. I didn’t consider killing him because it wasn’t necessary, I just wanted him disabled. Had it been necessary…. I don’t know. Had I had access to a gun, I would have shot a dozen.
I can forgive the broken ribs, the crushed sinus, the nose broken in 3 places (the last one actually straightened it out a bit). I can’t forgive them for turning me into a hunted, desperate animal that would have killed other children if need be.
Sorry, you have no idea of the reality trans kids live. I can’t even blame you for not believing it, it’s so far out of your experience.
ken# – with respect – it means that any teenager who commits a planned and pre-meditating slaying of a trans teen won’t be punished for it.
Either they get charged as a juvenile – and then the defence spins out the trial and appeal process so long that they turn 18 so are released before they spend a day in detention (the killer turns 18 in january, so if he’d been charged as a juvenile, the case would be mooted) – or they get charged as an adult, so never get convicted.
All they have to do is say they were being sexually harassed. No need for witnesses or evidence.
The thing that caused a “fugue state”? The victim mentioned she was changing her name.
THAT was what the defence said was enough to make a reasonable person snap and kill. And 7 out of 12 of the jurors bought it. It only takes one.
I really hope the DA moves for a retrial. I’d be surprised if he doesn’t – but may not, as I don’t think the odds of getting a conviction will change, and the facts don’t justify a charge other than pre-meditated murder.
If we’re lucky, only a few more trans kids will die. If not, there’ll be repeats of Columbine.
Trans kids know now that if another kid tells them they will kill them, that nothing will be done. That they are as good as dead if they can’t get out of there. That they *will* die. The only question is – do they take out their tormentors as they go? Maybe save someone else’s life? Their own is already forfeit no matter what they do, they literally have nothing to lose.
ken,
it’s actually NOT hyperbole. a quick google of transgender violence should clear up your misconceptions.
and in case you don’t know how to use google, just click on this.
http://www.edgeboston.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=&sc3=&id=96920
Take your white male american presumptive privilege, and pack it in. You are no expert. Just another denialist… see http://www.derailingfordummies,com – it should be more your speed…
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/
(“.” not “,” in the URL)
Again, I don’t blame you. But let’s just look at what’s been reported in the last week or so.
In my neck of the woods:
Paraplegic trans woman bashed with a shovel while in her wheelchair
http://www.bordermail.com.au/news/local/news/general/bash-victim-feared-she-would-die/2278408.aspx
In yours:
The shooter was an off-duty police officer who was drunk.
Kids get assaulted all the time:
She had to have part of her skull removed to reduce the swelling – without such emergency surgery, she’d be dead.
See http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2011/08/if-a-transgender-person-is-murdered-and-no-one-notices-did-it-happen/#comments
Here’s a quote:
The incident he describes is here – http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video800.php?v=wshhihb913lf4tpu4q5m&set_size=1
Welcome to my world.
ken,
it’s actually NOT hyperbole. a quick google of transgender violence should clear up your misconceptions.
and in case you don’t know how to use google, just click on this.
http://www.edgeboston.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=&sc3=&id=96920
Take your white male american presumptive privilege, and pack it in. You are no expert. Just another denialist… see http://www.derailingfordummies,com – it should be more your speed…
Comparing adultery and gayism is really stupid. Gayism is not just an immoral issue, it is also an increasingly an international sexual movement led by Westerners who have an agenda to impose it on every country in the world. Unlike gay sex deviants, adulterers and fornicators do not form international movements to press for their behaviour to be accepted and codified into law. They do not press for people who disapprove of their behaviour to be criminalized with stupid laws such as the one that caused a Swedish Pastor to be arrested and sentenced to a month in jail for criticizing gayism during a church sermon. All the arguments offered so far to support gayism on this comment thread is ridiculous and an insult to the intelligence of the Ugandan people. Gayism is already a criminal offence and we intend to expand the scope of punishment for it regardless of your protestations. And yes, if you do not like what we are doing, then implore your government to withdraw their useless blackmail money (a.k.a “donor aid packages”)
Zoe Brain# ~ Sep 1, 2011 at 8:18 pm
“Open Season declared on Trans children”
No Zoe, it doesn’t mean that at all.
I realize this case is very tragic and has personal significance to you. However, this type of hyperbole doesn’t really help.
Open Season declared on Trans children
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/09/gay-slaying-jury.html
I doubt I will last long enough to find out what these bull moose loonies will do to me, but I have the double whammy: I am ambisexual and atheist. The reason I don’t think I will last is that the first Sunday I don’t respect the “Sabbath” and refrain from working so that I can (and do) go to church will be followed by a Monday all day in the public stocks. (If you don’t think this ever happened — humiliation by being locked into wooden sadomasochistic contraptions so that people could spit on you, &c. — go to some of the old colonial settlements and fortresses in New England.) These Christers get everything wrong, though. The Sabbath isn’t Sunday, it is from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. Sheeesh! Don’t they even know their Leviticus? Or have they been cafeteria Christians again?
The work you’ve done on the Uganda gay issue is so outstanding, Warren. Thanks for so diligently, competently, and compassionately championing the bringing of light to this extremely troubling situation.
I doubt I will last long enough to find out what these bull moose loonies will do to me, but I have the double whammy: I am ambisexual and atheist. The reason I don’t think I will last is that the first Sunday I don’t respect the “Sabbath” and refrain from working so that I can (and do) go to church will be followed by a Monday all day in the public stocks. (If you don’t think this ever happened — humiliation by being locked into wooden sadomasochistic contraptions so that people could spit on you, &c. — go to some of the old colonial settlements and fortresses in New England.) These Christers get everything wrong, though. The Sabbath isn’t Sunday, it is from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. Sheeesh! Don’t they even know their Leviticus? Or have they been cafeteria Christians again?
Good analysis Dr. T.
I find myself in interesting conversations with people who wear their religious beliefs on their sleeves, but don’t want to engage in I would think would be the simplest terms on which we could agree.
Especially the basic directive of treating another person the way they’d want to be treated. It’s a test of basic ethics and morals to walk the walk. Especially when we’re talking about making DISTINCTIONS in what religious sins are as compared to moral sins. And public policy and the limits of government and religious CHOICE.
Our particular country has had those moral creeds tested over the two and half centuries since it’s inception as a country.
Over indigenous populations, over slavery, over women’s rights, over Jim Crow, women’s liberation. The very recent history of Jim Crow and women’s liberation can give us insights on similar national discussions and how religious influence figures into all of it.
And in each of these sea changes in our history, faith communities were as engaged in maintaining dominance and segregation over whatever human beings they wanted.
That is to say, depending on who’s ox was gored, could a person of faith be trusted WITH that faith and how they intended to use it.
I’m sure all of us know people who considered themselves good people. Who were hard working and charitable, who STILL harbored prejudices and denials of the humanity and needs of certain groups. And they WERE good people, essentially, until challenged on deeper than the superficial. There might be a singular incident that triggers the real person underneath, as if their face was a mask most of the time.
Those that aren’t actively attacking or condoning violence or using derogatory language or actions, don’t consider themselves part of a problem. Effectively making it a BIGGER problem.
And extension of evil prevailing when good people do nothing, as it were.
Note that those calling for such dominionism/Christianism…are more of the same people. So entitled and distant from EVER experience real deprivation and threat to their basic human and Constitutional freedoms.
That is to say, a majority of them are white, Christian, male, heterosexual and are of all ages.
You’d think they weren’t already dominating all of our financial, media, political, industrial, religious and foreign policies.
You’d think they’d never been responsible for a lot of ruination, and suffering.
You’d think that their successes didn’t come from either support from the rest of us, or at our expense.
But instead are claiming to be victims of the rest of us who aren’t willing to sit by and take this dominance as a given.
At any rate, we’ve seen pogroms initiated to try and eliminate the usual irritants to such ideals before.
They all have a name and it’s rejected by the very people having this on their wish lists.
It’s not hard to see that when those irritants are engaged as respected allies, rather than dehumanized intruders, everything is better.
Sad that they don’t recognize that for what it is.
Something as God given to us, as their lives are to them.
There is no question that the theonomists are faithfully adhering to the Holy Bible. I say that as someone who has studied the works of RJ Rushdoony, the father of theonomy, and has read his seminal work The Institutes of Biblical Law.
What the reprobate minds of pseudo-Christians like members of NAR cannot grasp is that the implementation of God’s law is not optional. Enlow may not “endorse“ this approach, and Wagner may declare that his “position“ that “this is not a good way to do it.” But their endorsements and positions have absolutely no authority in this matter. Lev. 20:13 is the authority. Absent a specific statement in the New Testament prohibiting such the death penalty for homosexuals – and there is none – the penalty remains in effect. The same goes true for the penalties for adultery, fornication, rape, idolatry, and witchcraft.
However, the total number of Americans who would actually be executed is far less than is generally predicted. It is simply untrue that a majority of Americans would be put to death. In practical terms, the kill rate would initially be very high, but would decrease as the general deterrent effect of God’s law took hold. We chart this as a concave slope, with the x-axis representing the period of time in which God’s law is in effect and the y-axis as the total number of death sentences issued.
Significantly, the theonomist legal structure would not be imposed retroactively, so sinning Americans would be on notice to get their affairs set right and cease wrongful activity before the new legal order takes effect. Obviously, continuing violations, such as a post-divorce “second marriage” that was consummated before the implementation of theonomy, would be subject to the full penalty. Given both the deterrent effect of public executions and the notice period and absence of retroactivity, it is unlikely that any more than 15-25% of the adult population would actually be put to death. This is no worse than the the mortality rate for plagues in ancient times. The difference is that while ancient societies incurred such a toll as the result of disease, the deaths resulting from the implementation of God’s Word would be curative for society as a whole.
As Rusdoony teaches, Christians are called to obey God and God’s Word. Our own judgments and sentimental impulses do not supersede the Bible. Ultimately, even the non-Christian would rejoice to live under a legal system founded on God’s Word.
Thanks Zoe Brain… sadly this kind of thing happens every day. Even in supposedly queer friendly seattle metro area..
signed
yet another seatown transgendered person…
the prison system is an automatic death sentence – as you know.
our system is sick. people are sick. and the T holocaust (that *is* the appropriate term) continues unabated – even in 2011.
i haz a sad… i also bought a house in mexico in the middle of nowehere to escape the stupid puritans .. fuck everybody, but I’ll take the voodoo catholics over the wasps any day…
I wish I didn’t have to feel that way.
Thanks for being a decent human being…
really.
Bookmarked. Thank you, Mr. Throckmorton.
I’m way too secular to understand this kind of mentality, or maybe just too much of a foreigner. The mind boggles…
Based on this line from Wagner:
I suspect you’re being a bit too generous about NAR being “squeamish” – the line above seems like a veiled reference to extrajudicial mob violence; in other words, Wagner knows it would be politically unpopular to actually *call* for executions, but if some people get lynched that’s not the state’s fault…
StraightGrandmother – and others – please have a read of this one to see how *I* feel.
If a transgender person is murdered and no one notices, did it happen?
Then have a look at the comments here if you want to know how many religious people view trans people. We’re lucky if they just want us dead, without being tortured first. And while these are a minority in the US, those who hold such views number in the millions.
I am starting to feel surrounded. I am just now starting to understand how athiests feel.
Good comments Mary.
Isn’t there a difference between dominance and making others submit? Jesus never did that.
I really think the Kingdom of God is within us. Let other people either in or let them go. We don’t have to do anything with other people’s lives. And mind our own business.
Zoe Brain# ~ Aug 29, 2011 at 11:04 pm
“There are a lot who genuinely believe that hurricane Irene was caused by the direct intervention of God to punish NY for legalising same-sex marriage.”
Whenever I hear something like this I am reminded of a quote from Cheryl Jacques (former MA state rep) circa 2006:
“Since MA has enacted same-sex marriage, we’ve won 2 superbowls and a world series. Hardly an indication that God is mad at us.”
Of course there’s plenty of under-reported violence against Intersex and Trans children apart from that by Religious Nutters.
But this isn’t a “Hate Crime” according to the police.
The case is listed as “inactive” and the police are not investigating.
Source
This is why the number of reported hate crimes is so low.
25 people, Christian and Muslim, who believe this kind of thing.
What do they want to with Gays?
1. Brainwash us.
2. Jail us.
3. Deport us.
Hmmm….It seems to me that I recall someone in Germany doing the same things.
Some symptoms – from the Tennessee County Sheriff’s Handbook dealing with Intersex people awaiting trial:
Get mugged, and the odds are 1 in 3 that you’ll be arrested for assault, disorderly conduct, or “nonviolently resisting arrest” while in intensive care. Sure, the charges will almost certainly be thrown out if you come to trial, but first you must survive up to 5 years in custody before then.
Warren, I don’t want to exaggerate the extent of the problem. If I was truly concerned about the threat level, I’d be talking to the police, and if in my estimation they weren’t doing enough to reduce the risk to acceptable levels, taking other action.
There are a lot of people in the USA who believe in young earth creationism. There are a lot who genuinely believe that hurricane Irene was caused by the direct intervention of God to punish NY for legalising same-sex marriage. And rather more who just say that, without actually believing, but that’s neither here nor there, and except for being enablers, they’re not the problem.
There are a lot of people who have not been exposed to anything other than a monoculture of ideas at home-school. Who believe in Ghosts, and Evil Spirits, and Demonic possession. Again, it’s arguable whether many truly believe it, or they’d be doing something concrete about it, involving explosives and bullets rather than prayer and holy relics and rituals.
But there’s enough who do use explosives or bullets, or more often, their position of power as judges, police, prison guards and the like to indulge their sadistic impulses on those they consider the Ungodly. They can engage in the most cruel torture, and it’s all OK because God is on their side.
I’m Intersex. Born with a body neither wholly male nor female. I changed apparent sex, from looking (mostly) male at birth to looking (mostly) female later. That (unlike most Intersex conditions which are indetectable except through a laboratory) can’t be ignored.
Intersex as a phenomenon contradicts the literal word of the Bible just as thoroughly as the sciences of astronomy and meteorology do when it comes to “firmaments”, the “waters above”. and “storehouses of hail and snow”. Unlike the latter though, this is not purely an academic matter.
My existence is a challenge to their beliefs – and as they see it, a chellenge to God Almighty. They “know” what God says, so I cannot be what I appear to be, I must be some kind of product of Satan, if not actually the physical embodiment of a Demonic entity.
Most will just say that, without really believing it. But some do more than that, they truly believe that I’m not human, not a person, but a malevolent entity who poses a threat to them and their children. Even if I don’t attack them directly, a Righteous and Merciful God will punish them, their families, their friends and neighbours, even their whole nation, should they not destroy me. They have to, it’s just self-defence in their eyes. And of course, since I’m not human, destroying my Earthly form can’t be murder, can it?
Those of us who have Intersex conditions that are publicly known about have 17 times the rate of being murder victims compared to those whose situation is not known.
I’m in Australia. The threat level from religious fanatics is low here. Parts of the USA it’s not. Pretty much everyone knows someone whose house has been firebombed, or who have been put in an ER or the morgue in the Bible Belt. Police investigation is rarer in those places than the police being involved in the attack, and there’s little if any reporting on it.
In the majority of the US, such things don’t happen, or if they do, are investigated and reported on, I mustn’t overstate the case. But in the more conservative backwoods, it’s more the rule than the exception, and remains unpublicised. There’s more Fanatics, be they “dominionists” or “reconstructionists” or what-have-you than you realise. They’re livestock for the vampirical charlatans, the mega-churches and millionaire preachers that feed on their donations, and carefully cultivate their existence.
Maybe I am jsut not well read enough but I don’t knw anybody else who brings such interesting topics such as homosexuality, politics and religions together in such interesting ways. Throckmorton never fails to interest me with his insights.
Admitting my ignorence here I never even knew that modern day self appointed Apostles existed. It kind of reminds me of Napolean crowning himself Emporer. These people have an oversized ego, and who are the nut jobs that folllow them? It is all so surreal. I listened to the NPR broadcast that Warren linked to in an earlier post about Dominionism, that to I never knew existed. It is like there is this culture that I do not participate in that I am not even aware of exists.
I strongly object to this quote from Atlanta pastor, Johnny Enlow, “I personally believe that most who suffer from homosexual feelings are worthy of great compassion because as a rule it tells us they have suffered some significant traumas in their lives”
That statement perpetuates a myth about people who are gay, lesbian, bi-sexual or transgender, more or less that they are damaged goods. I find it to be very patronizing and not reflective of the gays, lesbians, bi-sexual and transgender people I know.
I could go on and on about the other quotations, all are facially wrong.
What do they want to with Gays?
1. Brainwash us.
2. Jail us.
3. Deport us.
Hmmm….It seems to me that I recall someone in Germany doing the same things.
Have secret affairs with them?!
Have secret affairs with them?!