National Public Radio aired interviewsof Journey into Manhood’s Rich Wyler and ex-ex-gay Peterson Toscano this morning on the subject of sexual orientation change.
The segment omitted some key details of Rich Wyler’s involvement in gay change therapy. I posted my quick thoughts on the subject over at Religion Dispatches.
Most troubling to me about the portrayal of what Rich advocates is the omission of the touch therapy and highly provocative, ball bat wielding elements of JiM. The NPR reporter Alix Spiegel made Rich’s work sound like calm cognitive therapy. Hardly.
Here is a Nightline segment about JiM:
As I pointed out at RD, JiM is fringe even in ex-gay circles.
160 thoughts on “NPR fails to take a Journey into Manhood in ex-gay segment”
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Are you saying the Cohen warns people that their are negative risks associated with his holding intervention?
StraightGrandmother,
How many people in mixed orientation marriages, who are happy with their own definition of happiness or succes regarding their marriage, are going to be posting on the web site you are referring to? Probably few as they are going about living their life as they want to – together, and by their own values and motivations for getting married, they consider their marriage successful. If I am understanding your correctly, you only know about the marriages on the web site, not the other ones. 50% of non-mixed orientation marriages end in divorce – I am sure there are many web sites for those people as well, however, I doubt you will see the other 50% posting there.
Anne
Maybe you are right Ann. Statistically MOM, Mixed Orientation Marriages, are not very often successful, and the person who is harmed the most, is the heterosexual spouse. So I guess I am going by the statistics, not some made up bias on my part. Is that confirmation bias? I am very uneasy about medical or therapeutic efforts when those efforts can harm another person, a second person, not the person who is asking for help. I know I am not saying it right. It seems to me that there is a difference if you want to try some therapy and it just involves yourself. But when you try some therapy and then “try it out to see if it works” on another person, especially an unsuspecting person, that makes me really uneasy. I don’t wish any of them well, I wish them to run for the hills before they have wasted the best years of their life on something that isn’t going to provide them in the long term, a good happy life, for BOTH the sexual minority AND the heterosexual spouse. So far this is what the research shows so that is why I feel this way.
Here is a question, what other medical treatments or therapies does a patient receive that has the potential to harm another person? Maybe you or someone here can think of some, I can’t think of any other one, other than therapy to help a sexual minority lead a heterosexual behaved life.
What is the opposite of heterosexuality?
What does Exodus mean by ‘homosexuality’? Behavior, or same-gender sexual behavior?
Several questions from this quote come to mind:
1.) Don’t str8 people fit somewhere in all this?
2.) How many str8 men have deeply fulfilling friendships with other men?
3.) How many str8 people live a life aligned with God’s will for them?
Finally, back to the idea of “the opposite of homosexuality is holiness” … it really miffs me that I’m supposed to be holy … and, str8 persons are what?
Why the difference? Why are gay persons called to ‘be holy’, in a community that most often could care less about us … and, frankly, most don’t think we’re even ‘normal’.
Why’s the bar raised so high for us, and not for str8 persons?
Ann,
It is from the Journey Into Manhood Weekend.
Michael – If Exodus mission period was about congruence then their resources sections wouldn’t look like The Reparative Therapists Favorite Book List.
Here is a definition of Change Warren rightly aspires to:
Can someone explain to me how getting naked, touching or cuddling other men can help a gay guy to stop liking it? 🙂
Ann, you may try to be understanding of JIM practices; but, try putting this into a str8 context. How about men and women who are afraid/curious/full of desire … should we permit them to touch and feel each other … skin on skin? Would you approve of that, Ann?
Have we lost our common sense here? Men, sexually attracted to other men, need to learn appropriate boundaries, just as men attracted to women need to. Homosexual men don’t need to be feeling and touching other men to develop proper friendships.
Perhaps, that’s what George Rekers was doing, when he was having his ‘daily massages’.
StraightGrandmother,
With all the awareness brought to this subject and the ancillary components from it, I think an individual has the resources to make an intelligent choice on marriage with someone who experiences attractions to their own gender. If there is decpeption about full disclosure, then I see that as a huge problem and not sure if two people can overcome that breach of trust. Aside from that, people get married for their own personal reasons, not our’s. I wish them well.
AJ,
The issue is the quote: “skin to skin.”
Is that what you observed on the weekend?
Warren,
Christians have formed sects called Quakers, Shakers and so on. Think of alter calls and camp meetings.
If two ex-gay men hug each other in church or sit next to each other too close, what does your church think?
Look up Joe Kort, M.A. on google search. XGW had a posting from him, I don’t know if they still do. For some time he advocated Warrior weekends for gay and straight men.
StraightGrandmother,
Neither do I. I do think there is something very wrong in projecting a set of beliefs that might apply to some, onto everyone. You believe something, therefore it must apply to everyone. Should someone not fit the mold you’ve already made up your mind about, you want to diminish it, therefore confirming your bias. I’m not sure what benefit is derived from that.
I might think they are falling in love. At least, that’s what happened in my case. 🙂
Cuddling the gay away: With homosexual “conversion” in the news again, we look at the extra-weird practice of same-sex touch therapy” ~ By Tracy Clark-Flory
http://www.salon.com/life/sex/index.html?story=/mwt/feature/2011/08/01/ex_gay
David B.,
thanks – I like what it says – a lot.
Regarding the skin to skin issue – do they do this to demystify the curiosity and desire one might feel for another man and, instead, allow another perspective to perhaps be felt? I don’t think I agree with it but am trying to be open minded and fair to understand the purpose of it. I know when I have been or am afraid/curious/desireous (which can happen all at the same time), I find if I confront or face those feelings, often I feel more control over them and they lose some of the power they originally had with or over me. Is this sort of what they do it for – to allow men to feel each other with limitations and control and appreciate them as equals?
I might be thinking a little different than Lynn, I am not so much concerned about the sexual minority in a mixed orientation marriage as I am deeply concerned for the heterosexual spouse. I first heard about Straight Spouse Network when both Yarhouse and Warren mentioned them as a source for their research. I didn’t think much about it until Theresa mentioned them in a comment then I went over and started reading. http://www.voy.com/86426/
I guess I don’t wish them well as a “couple” I wish them well individually.
Warren,
I read your brief article. I don’t understand this:
JIM promotes skin-to-skin therapy
I am completely baffled. Can you make your arguments about a technique without using TWO hyperbole?
Are Christians who have Same Sex attractions not allowed to hug and cry and hold eachother during moving spiritual services? Do you forbid such “skin to skin” activity in your church?
In discussing Ryan Kendall’s rage at his treatment by NARTH, I doubt the courage he mustered over the last 14 years is “purely cerebral” either. My hunch is he pounded a few pillows, hugged and held other men non-sexually and shed many tears. He may have had some rage at his father or mother that he acted out.
He may have found it “curative” of his self-loathing (internalized homophobia). I would encourage him to do whatever helps a suicidal, homeless gay man. As a psychologist.
I would remind everyone that Ex-gay Watch has encouraged the contributions of an author who strongly recommends Warrior Weekends for Gay men. Warrior Weekends are often populated by Mental Health workers.
Lets get real.
I heard the NPR report on my way to work this morning. I recognized Wyler’s name, but couldn’t place who he was. It’s a huge omission for NPR to not disclose the controversial organization Wyler is associated with. It’s also disappointing that NPR didn’t seek your input or more typical ex-gay organizations like NARTH or Exodus.
When the reporter pressed Wyler about whether he was still attracted to men, I was surprised to hear Wyler deny having any sexual attractions to men. It’s rare for an honest ex-gay activist to say they no longer have any same-sex attractions. Most ex-gays I’ve heard admit to having some same-sex attractions.
StraightGrandmother,
Since you don’t wish them well as a couple, are you wishing them well individually if they stay together as a couple or is your wish for them individually contingent on them not staying together as a couple? Also, since this is their choice, what benefit do you derive from not wishing them well as a couple? Confirmation bias?
I am not too sure about Journey into Manhood but I sure do wish this young couple and their new family many blessings.
One of my friends raised some good questions:
Another quote from the Salon.com article, above:
Sorry about that:
Thanks Teresa.
Warren:
Can you justify your “skin on skin” comment?
Please document these assertions:
If you can’t, you should probably advise the editor at NPR to change your article.
“Cuddling the gay away: With homosexual “conversion” in the news again, we look at the extra-weird practice of same-sex touch therapy.” ~ By Tracy Clark-Flory
http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2011/08/01/ex_gay/index.html
It seems like a slander to meld Cooks admitted abuse to JIM.
Apples and oranges.
Michael,
While you disagree with me, I completely agree with you here – as long as you are talking about credentialed therapists. That is why I asked if they were or not. When you told me they were not credentialed, then all bets are off as to what methods they will try. This is why trust in a non-professional, non-credentialed person for your well being is not a good idea. When an individual sensed a method was not right for them, they had the choice to say no and better yet, leave.
AJ- How much did this cost? Do you remember? How did you find out about it?
SG,
I don’t remember the cost, but I think it was several hundred dollars plus a plane ticket.
It was recommended to me by someone.
Ann,
Looking back, I should not have gone to this weekend without more information. I guess I was just desparate to try anything. I feel guilty telling anything on here since I signed the confidentiality form, but I’m not giving any details of the weekend or of the other participants. I do think people need to have a general idea of what this is really about before going. I wish I had known. And I guess Ted Cox let most of the cat out of the bag already.
Regarding sexual orientation change efforts/therapies – I personally do not endorse them. I applaud them for all the people they have helped and I hope they help many more who choose this path.
StraightGrandmother- Isn’t the above a contradiction? How can you be supportive of something you do not personally endorse?
StraightGrandmother,
I can be supportive of other people without deriving a benefit for myself. I do not need to be right about what is best for others – that is underestimating what they know to be right for them. I am mindful that people are different and what works for some, might not work for another. While I might hold a personal belief, I leave it there and do no demand it of others. Kind of like being pro-life and pro-choice at the same time. I can hold a deep personal belief in the sanctity of life for the pre-born and yet also believe in pro-choice. I am just always hoping the choice they choose is life, but that is their decision. What I believe to be right should never impose or impede on another’s belief regarding social issues.
Okay Ann, I am starting to understand you, you are Switzerland (that is a JOKE).
I get you now that you gave the example of Pro Choice and Pro Life.
AJ,
I appreciate the information you impart about this – thank you. It does sound a lot like what I went to and now would not.
AJ,
I am glad you shared what you did and you are right, you only shared your observation and experiences about the weekend, not anyone else’s. It really is unsettling that a confidentiality agreement was necessary to begin with. In all the 12 step anonymous supports groups that are now available, no one has to sign an agreement – there is a trust that seems to transcend it. I realize that JIM is different in many ways but there is something very weird if what they do during these weekends requires a confidentiality agreement. Is it to protect the privacy of the participants or protect the questionable methods that might work for some but create distress for others? Protecting the privacy of the participating, like you did, is great – the other, not so much, if at all.
Ann,
Anne- I am sorry but I don’t know what confirmation bias is.
If I remember the video correctly the young man had his first gay sexual experience at age 23 and then married heterosexually at age 25. So he knew he was gay and still went on to marry a heterosexual woman. The young man in the video has already been through some JIM “therapy” and is back at least for the second time at the reunion.
Ann I remember the Yarhouse study statistically what a slim chance this couple has to have a long happy marriage. Then just yesterday I started reading the comments over at Straight Spouse Network, the comments curled my hair Ann they really did. I think it is just a better idea for sexual minorities to NOT attempt marriage with a heterosexual spouse. That is what I think Ann after having studied it a bit here on Warren’s website. Thus I wish them well individually and not provide false hope or encouragement for their marriage. Easy for me to do since I don’t know them, I know. To many comments over at the Straight Spouse network are how they wasted years and years of their life with being married to a sexual minority and they regret it.
Probably my thoughts on sexual minorities influences my “well wishes.” I don’t think there is anything wrong with being gay, lesbian, bi or transgender. Nor do I think it is sinful. To me it is perfectly normal, simply they are a sexual minority is all. I think everyone is happier when they marry a person they are naturally sexually attracted to, and that don’t have to go to “let’s stay straight” retreats to keep the marriage going.
Interesting that Exodus may be getting closer to doing that:
Of course, I strongly disagree with Exodus’ belief that homosexuality is unholy. But, it would be really nice it that was their “mission, period”: Helping people live in accordance with their faith, not orientation change. That is more honest, in my opinion. What Warren refers to as “calling is what it is”.
Before she left Exodus, in a keynote address, Wendy Gritter urged Exodus leaders to “deal humbly and transparently with the perception that we have lied [about orientation change].”
That was several years ago, and they seemed to strongly resist her suggestion that they change the “change” lingo — and really clarify what they mean by “change” and “freedom from homosexuality”.
She told me that she believed that many in Exodus actually wanted to shift to a “congruence model”, but that the leadership of Exodus was worried they might lose allies and funding if they did. John Smid told me he had the same impression. But time has passed. Perhaps they are finally listening to her.
David Blakeslee,
Who wrote the definition of change that you posted?
PS – RE: JIM’s view of change. Most of it is really congruence with values and not change. Just call it what it is.
Rich set the bar pretty high when he said he was not attracted to men at all.
NPR reponds:
“NPR Admits Some Mistakes, Stops Short of Apology” ~ By Lucas Grindley
http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2011/08/04/NPR_Admits_Some_Mistakes,_Stops_Short_of_Apology/
NPR reponds:
“NPR Admits Some Mistakes, Stops Short of Apology” ~ By Lucas Grindley
http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2011/08/04/NPR_Admits_Some_Mistakes,_Stops_Short_of_Apology/
NPR Claims Debate Over “Ex-Gay” Therapy Is Still “Raging”
http://equalitymatters.org/blog/201108010011#.TjoR5k8jvVY.facebook
NPR Claims Debate Over “Ex-Gay” Therapy Is Still “Raging”
http://equalitymatters.org/blog/201108010011#.TjoR5k8jvVY.facebook
AJ,
I am glad you shared what you did and you are right, you only shared your observation and experiences about the weekend, not anyone else’s. It really is unsettling that a confidentiality agreement was necessary to begin with. In all the 12 step anonymous supports groups that are now available, no one has to sign an agreement – there is a trust that seems to transcend it. I realize that JIM is different in many ways but there is something very weird if what they do during these weekends requires a confidentiality agreement. Is it to protect the privacy of the participants or protect the questionable methods that might work for some but create distress for others? Protecting the privacy of the participating, like you did, is great – the other, not so much, if at all.
AJ,
I think you’re being very courageous to come forward with the info you have. Don’t feel guilty. It sounds almost abusive, the way they take advantage of these poor desperate fragile men.. Whether one is exploring Warren’s SIT or a gay-affirming therapy, it should be done with much more sensitivity to the patient. JiM sounds cultish and abusive.
SG,
I don’t remember the cost, but I think it was several hundred dollars plus a plane ticket.
It was recommended to me by someone.
Ann,
Looking back, I should not have gone to this weekend without more information. I guess I was just desparate to try anything. I feel guilty telling anything on here since I signed the confidentiality form, but I’m not giving any details of the weekend or of the other participants. I do think people need to have a general idea of what this is really about before going. I wish I had known. And I guess Ted Cox let most of the cat out of the bag already.
AJ,
I appreciate the information you impart about this – thank you. It does sound a lot like what I went to and now would not.
In reference to Michael Bussee’s comment about Richard Cohen. Cohen had therapy sessions with Martha Welsh (see website March G. Welsh Center) in touch and holding therapy back in the mid 90s. Her primary focus was children with Autism and their families. Her research showed that touch and holding therapy helped children develop faster in emotional development, bonding with parents and family. Cohen took this idea and put his own spin on it. However, to my knowledge, Cohen, nor anyone else to my knowledge have ever done any studies, peer reviewed or otherwise, to suggest that this is helpful for those who are SSA. Also, mentioned in other responses and the JIM story is the pillow pounding and screaming/yelling who hurt you and how much you hate them for doing, yada, yada, yada, ala Cohen screaming like a banshee on various internet videos about how bad his mother was and father too. This is a bioenergetic technique developed by the followers of Reich and more specifically the late Dr. Irwin Lowen and others. Although it may have some redeeming value to some in the short term, unfortunately Lowen or anyone else for that matter, did not do any studies, peer reviewed or otherwise as to the efficacy of this technique, so there is no supporting evidence that this is useful for anything, let alone something so complicated as SSA. To my knowledge Cohen has not done any peer reviewed published studies on this subject of touch therapy, his version of reparative therapy, pillow pounding, etc. He was also permanently expelled from the American Counseling Association back in 2001 for numerous and serious violations of the ethical code. So, I can’t see his book Coming out Straight being taken seriously in the professional community that relies on peer reviewed scientific research. Just because you publish a book doesn’t mean that what is in it is true just because you say it is. Cohen gives no scientific evidence whatsoever in his book that any of these techniques have any efficacy for SSA.
Also, those on the Nighline video complaining that they were hurt by this JIM therapy. I’m sure that there are many who would give testimony to the many different therapies out there for personality disorders, the majority of which therapy has not helped them and perhaps made them worse. If those who attend get something out of it, good for them. There are no guarantees in this world for anything really and especially therapy. No therapist is ever going to guarantee any outcome to a client. So, the best one can hope is that about one third of the clients are helped and in some cases more and some less.
Okay Ann, I am starting to understand you, you are Switzerland (that is a JOKE).
I get you now that you gave the example of Pro Choice and Pro Life.
AJ- How much did this cost? Do you remember? How did you find out about it?
Ann,
JIM does not tell you anything about the touch therapy ahead of time. People who attend the weekend have to sign documents that they will not tell details of what happened in the weekend, so nobody knew touch therapy was part of this. They also make it VERY difficult to leave. My weekend (and I think all of them) was held miles and miles away from the nearest house. They arrange carpooling, so most people are stuck. They do not allow you to have your cell phone or a watch. When you check in, they take your bags from you and you don’t see them until you go to bed that night.
Most of the participants were in their early twenties. They were scared and desparate. The counselors tried to appear intimidating for the first half of the weekend. It is really not as simple as “they should say no” or “they should leave” if they don’t like it.
As far as skin on skin, I can only speak for my weekend. Things may have been different before or after. In the large group no one took off any of their clothes. In my small group, one of the guys said his issue had to do with body image, so they asked him to take off his shirt. They suggested that the rest of us do the same thing. I did not. In one of the cabins (not mine), several of the guys pulled their mattresses down onto the floor so they could “cuddle” with each other over night. I don’t know how dressed or undressed they were or what may have happened during the night.
Regarding sexual orientation change efforts/therapies – I personally do not endorse them. I applaud them for all the people they have helped and I hope they help many more who choose this path.
StraightGrandmother- Isn’t the above a contradiction? How can you be supportive of something you do not personally endorse?
StraightGrandmother,
I can be supportive of other people without deriving a benefit for myself. I do not need to be right about what is best for others – that is underestimating what they know to be right for them. I am mindful that people are different and what works for some, might not work for another. While I might hold a personal belief, I leave it there and do no demand it of others. Kind of like being pro-life and pro-choice at the same time. I can hold a deep personal belief in the sanctity of life for the pre-born and yet also believe in pro-choice. I am just always hoping the choice they choose is life, but that is their decision. What I believe to be right should never impose or impede on another’s belief regarding social issues.
StraightGrandmother wrote:
Tap…tap…tap.. fingers tapping on the desktop impatient for Warren’s research to be published. I am very interested in research into if gays can change their sexual orientation. The reason I am interested is because this information is then used politically and in court to further Equal Rights for gays, lesbains, bi-sexual and transgender citizens or… to deny them Equal Rights.
StraightGrandmother, what do you mean by change? There’s been a lot of discussion here about what change means.
One of my friends raised some good questions:
Ann
StraightGrandmother- Isn’t the above a contradiction? How can you be supportive of something you do not personally endorse? I do not applaud them myself, I am very skeptical of them, VERY. If they opened up their books to outside auditors (not in the accounting sense but in the results sense) then I would look at the impartial review with an open mind. Unless and until that happens I am a skeptic. If it is so great and works so well then why don’t they let in impartial observers to review their claimed results? It is kind of like in that movie, “Show me the money”
Michael,
While you disagree with me, I completely agree with you here – as long as you are talking about credentialed therapists. That is why I asked if they were or not. When you told me they were not credentialed, then all bets are off as to what methods they will try. This is why trust in a non-professional, non-credentialed person for your well being is not a good idea. When an individual sensed a method was not right for them, they had the choice to say no and better yet, leave.
Tap…tap…tap.. fingers tapping on the desktop impatient for Warren’s research to be published. I am very interested in research into if gays can change their sexual orientation. The reason I am interested is because this information is then used politically and in court to further Equal Rights for gays, lesbains, bi-sexual and transgender citizens or… to deny them Equal Rights.
If sexual orientation, once established, is Immutable then in court a higher level of judicial scrutiny is required, in other words laws that DISCRIMINATE get struck down easier. The information that I learn here helps me make my points in political discussions. Whatever science comes out with will be used politically and in Court so it is real important that the science is done right. Keep the discussions going everyone I am really learning a lot here.
StraightGrandmother,
I do think there are therapists and some organizations that espouse sexual orientation change behavior therapies. There was a woman who used to post here who talked about her experience with this.
Regarding sexual orientation change efforts/therapies – I personally do not endorse them. I applaud them for all the people they have helped and I hope they help many more who choose this path. For me, personally, I think any shift one may feel toward congruence with their values has to come from within and that is the only way it can endure. This is not change of orientation – it is change in perspective toward their orientation and how one chooses to respond to it. The only ethical model that I know of that fits this is the SIT. I am sure there are others – I just don’t know about them.
StraightGrandmother,
The above paragraph indicates that disclosure was made after the marriage – this, to me, is deceptive and I can understand a marriage not being able to survive with this breach.
Wow – interesting. Didn’t know this – thanks. Infidelity and I do not personally get along, however, I am not sure if this is ok for some couples and was part of their pre-marital agreement or not.
Ok, this answers my above comment 🙂
I understand . My concern is what was their original expectation for their marriage and was that fully disclosed and reasoned out prior to marriage. For the people I know in mixed marriages, everything was up front and, because of that, they were able to move on together with full honesty and integrity in their decision to get married and the reasons they wanted to.
I don’t play poker but I think I understand your analogy. Cannot say I completely agree with it though.
With all due respect, I could not disagree more. As I pointed out, clients come to therapy bewildered, overwhelmed. depressed, anxious — and seeking direction from someone “in the know”. Whether or not they ought to, clients tend to trust their therapists. I was trained (and sincerely believe) that the practitioner bears the much greater burden. “Cuddling” therapy is bad science and bad practice. It is cruel to blame the victim.
A commenter on an Ex-gay Survivor blog had this to say:
Michael,
Thanks – I did not think they were credentialed therapists. That certainly explains why they are able to use the methods they do and not be accountable for doing so. Based on this information, I feel even stronger about the participants taking responsibility for engaging in activity that they did not feel comfortable with. They could have and probably should have said no to it and left. This does not absolve the leaders or facilitators from anything inappropriate or against the law, however, if an individual chose to attend, chose to participate, and chose to stay, then they are responsible as well for any harm they want to talk about later.
AJ,
I think you’re being very courageous to come forward with the info you have. Don’t feel guilty. It sounds almost abusive, the way they take advantage of these poor desperate fragile men.. Whether one is exploring Warren’s SIT or a gay-affirming therapy, it should be done with much more sensitivity to the patient. JiM sounds cultish and abusive.
StraightGrandmother-
Anne
StraightGrandmother- Ann you ARE smart! I could not come up with another scenario and you did. I think the doctor bears some responsibility because he needs to get his patients background before beginning treatments. If the doctor begins fertility treatments without ever having spoken to the spouse then I think the doc is wrong. The doctor knows that his treatments WILL affect a husband/partner so he is obligated to make his/her inquiries before the first fertility attempt.
As to your first paragraph, “If two individuals are willing to be participants in any kind of therapy” but that is the issue Anne, all these “let’s stay straight (as in the article we are commenting on)” therapies I only see single people at, not couples. These programs are individual therapies, not couples therapy. Just like with the IVF Doctor hte Doc HAS to bring in/bring along the other affected parties and sexual orientation change orientation behaviors therapies do NOT do that.
Ann
StraightGrandmother- Not just the website for Straight Spouses that just kind of anecdotaley backs up the Yarhouse study-
Because I read this on page 41,
“The research suggests, however, that many mixed orientation relationships do not survive. It has been estimated that only about a third of couples even attempt to stay together after disclosure (Buxton, 2004). Of that third that attempt to stay together, only about half remain intact for three or more years (Bux- ton).”
And…. “In the area of sexual fidelity, sexual minority spouses reported a higher than average number of extramarital relationships (44.2% indicating an extra- marital relationship), whereas national averages are at about 10% of women and under 25% of men (Laumann et al., 1994).”
Not only are 44.2% of the sexual minority spouses cheating on their heterosexual spouse but the number is even higher than that, because 15% had reported that they are in an “open” marriage.
These are simply not good numbers Ann, not good at all. First you read the cold dispassionate research but then when you go to StraightSpouse Network and read the first person stories you realize that it is more then just numbers there are actual people represented by those numbers, hurting people.
In poker you can win a hand with a pair of deuces, it can happen, but how likely IS it going to happen, how often.
I agree with Michael Bussee. If you go to one of these “let’s keep st8” retreats the attendees expect that people running it know what they are doing. If I were a participant I would not think to say no. I would do it with trepidation, but still do it since they are telling me to.
I seriously doubt they are — and that only compounds the problem — what we have are untrained and uncredentialed practitioners, with little or no training on scientific research, little or no training on standards of care, helper/client ethics or appropriate professional boundaries — and with questionable motivations for wanting to “cuddle” their clients. Unproven and dangerous.
Cohen says:
Cook admitted:
Who knows what motivates other practitioners of such an unproven and potentially abusive form of “therapy”. Who knows what kind of countertransference is taking place?
In reference to Michael Bussee’s comment about Richard Cohen. Cohen had therapy sessions with Martha Welsh (see website March G. Welsh Center) in touch and holding therapy back in the mid 90s. Her primary focus was children with Autism and their families. Her research showed that touch and holding therapy helped children develop faster in emotional development, bonding with parents and family. Cohen took this idea and put his own spin on it. However, to my knowledge, Cohen, nor anyone else to my knowledge have ever done any studies, peer reviewed or otherwise, to suggest that this is helpful for those who are SSA. Also, mentioned in other responses and the JIM story is the pillow pounding and screaming/yelling who hurt you and how much you hate them for doing, yada, yada, yada, ala Cohen screaming like a banshee on various internet videos about how bad his mother was and father too. This is a bioenergetic technique developed by the followers of Reich and more specifically the late Dr. Irwin Lowen and others. Although it may have some redeeming value to some in the short term, unfortunately Lowen or anyone else for that matter, did not do any studies, peer reviewed or otherwise as to the efficacy of this technique, so there is no supporting evidence that this is useful for anything, let alone something so complicated as SSA. To my knowledge Cohen has not done any peer reviewed published studies on this subject of touch therapy, his version of reparative therapy, pillow pounding, etc. He was also permanently expelled from the American Counseling Association back in 2001 for numerous and serious violations of the ethical code. So, I can’t see his book Coming out Straight being taken seriously in the professional community that relies on peer reviewed scientific research. Just because you publish a book doesn’t mean that what is in it is true just because you say it is. Cohen gives no scientific evidence whatsoever in his book that any of these techniques have any efficacy for SSA.
Also, those on the Nighline video complaining that they were hurt by this JIM therapy. I’m sure that there are many who would give testimony to the many different therapies out there for personality disorders, the majority of which therapy has not helped them and perhaps made them worse. If those who attend get something out of it, good for them. There are no guarantees in this world for anything really and especially therapy. No therapist is ever going to guarantee any outcome to a client. So, the best one can hope is that about one third of the clients are helped and in some cases more and some less.
Michael,
Are these programs staffed with credentialed therapists? For some reason I didn’t think they were.
Ann: I believe that’s the helper’s responsibility, not the client’s. Clients are in a very vulnerable position: depressed, anxious, in crisis. Their judgement is often impaired by their current tormoil — and many are likely to do what the helper suggests.
The therapist or counselor should take every step to make therapy scientifically based, effective and delivered with highest professional and ethical standards — to give clients fully informed consent and to prevent abuse or harm to patients. Do these programs meet that sort of standard for client care?
Ann,
JIM does not tell you anything about the touch therapy ahead of time. People who attend the weekend have to sign documents that they will not tell details of what happened in the weekend, so nobody knew touch therapy was part of this. They also make it VERY difficult to leave. My weekend (and I think all of them) was held miles and miles away from the nearest house. They arrange carpooling, so most people are stuck. They do not allow you to have your cell phone or a watch. When you check in, they take your bags from you and you don’t see them until you go to bed that night.
Most of the participants were in their early twenties. They were scared and desparate. The counselors tried to appear intimidating for the first half of the weekend. It is really not as simple as “they should say no” or “they should leave” if they don’t like it.
As far as skin on skin, I can only speak for my weekend. Things may have been different before or after. In the large group no one took off any of their clothes. In my small group, one of the guys said his issue had to do with body image, so they asked him to take off his shirt. They suggested that the rest of us do the same thing. I did not. In one of the cabins (not mine), several of the guys pulled their mattresses down onto the floor so they could “cuddle” with each other over night. I don’t know how dressed or undressed they were or what may have happened during the night.
StraightGrandmother wrote:
Tap…tap…tap.. fingers tapping on the desktop impatient for Warren’s research to be published. I am very interested in research into if gays can change their sexual orientation. The reason I am interested is because this information is then used politically and in court to further Equal Rights for gays, lesbains, bi-sexual and transgender citizens or… to deny them Equal Rights.
StraightGrandmother, what do you mean by change? There’s been a lot of discussion here about what change means.
MIchael, I understand your point.
Especially as a therapist. Sexually inappropriate touching may be (or is likely) forbidden at JIM. Probably best to read guidelines for participants.
But you are confusing the conversation about “skin on skin” at JIM.
Hi Michael,
What level of responsibility to you think the participants should take for engaging in this activity? If they are unaware that this is part of the program, don’t they have the choice to say they will not do it when asked to? If they are made aware that this is part of the program ahead of time, don’t they have the choice to leave? Wouldn’t this choice prevent the harm everyone is referring to?
The point was, I think, that the approach has no scientific basis and easilty can lead to abuse. I seriously doubt that advocates of cuddling therapy tell their clients either or those things.
Ann
StraightGrandmother- Isn’t the above a contradiction? How can you be supportive of something you do not personally endorse? I do not applaud them myself, I am very skeptical of them, VERY. If they opened up their books to outside auditors (not in the accounting sense but in the results sense) then I would look at the impartial review with an open mind. Unless and until that happens I am a skeptic. If it is so great and works so well then why don’t they let in impartial observers to review their claimed results? It is kind of like in that movie, “Show me the money”
It seems like a slander to meld Cooks admitted abuse to JIM.
Apples and oranges.
Are you saying the Cohen warns people that their are negative risks associated with his holding intervention?
Sorry about that:
Thanks Teresa.
Warren:
Can you justify your “skin on skin” comment?
Please document these assertions:
If you can’t, you should probably advise the editor at NPR to change your article.
Another quote from the Salon.com article, above:
Tap…tap…tap.. fingers tapping on the desktop impatient for Warren’s research to be published. I am very interested in research into if gays can change their sexual orientation. The reason I am interested is because this information is then used politically and in court to further Equal Rights for gays, lesbains, bi-sexual and transgender citizens or… to deny them Equal Rights.
If sexual orientation, once established, is Immutable then in court a higher level of judicial scrutiny is required, in other words laws that DISCRIMINATE get struck down easier. The information that I learn here helps me make my points in political discussions. Whatever science comes out with will be used politically and in Court so it is real important that the science is done right. Keep the discussions going everyone I am really learning a lot here.
StraightGrandmother,
I do think there are therapists and some organizations that espouse sexual orientation change behavior therapies. There was a woman who used to post here who talked about her experience with this.
Regarding sexual orientation change efforts/therapies – I personally do not endorse them. I applaud them for all the people they have helped and I hope they help many more who choose this path. For me, personally, I think any shift one may feel toward congruence with their values has to come from within and that is the only way it can endure. This is not change of orientation – it is change in perspective toward their orientation and how one chooses to respond to it. The only ethical model that I know of that fits this is the SIT. I am sure there are others – I just don’t know about them.
“Cuddling the gay away: With homosexual “conversion” in the news again, we look at the extra-weird practice of same-sex touch therapy.” ~ By Tracy Clark-Flory
http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2011/08/01/ex_gay/index.html
StraightGrandmother,
How many people in mixed orientation marriages, who are happy with their own definition of happiness or succes regarding their marriage, are going to be posting on the web site you are referring to? Probably few as they are going about living their life as they want to – together, and by their own values and motivations for getting married, they consider their marriage successful. If I am understanding your correctly, you only know about the marriages on the web site, not the other ones. 50% of non-mixed orientation marriages end in divorce – I am sure there are many web sites for those people as well, however, I doubt you will see the other 50% posting there.
StraightGrandmother,
The above paragraph indicates that disclosure was made after the marriage – this, to me, is deceptive and I can understand a marriage not being able to survive with this breach.
Wow – interesting. Didn’t know this – thanks. Infidelity and I do not personally get along, however, I am not sure if this is ok for some couples and was part of their pre-marital agreement or not.
Ok, this answers my above comment 🙂
I understand . My concern is what was their original expectation for their marriage and was that fully disclosed and reasoned out prior to marriage. For the people I know in mixed marriages, everything was up front and, because of that, they were able to move on together with full honesty and integrity in their decision to get married and the reasons they wanted to.
I don’t play poker but I think I understand your analogy. Cannot say I completely agree with it though.
With all due respect, I could not disagree more. As I pointed out, clients come to therapy bewildered, overwhelmed. depressed, anxious — and seeking direction from someone “in the know”. Whether or not they ought to, clients tend to trust their therapists. I was trained (and sincerely believe) that the practitioner bears the much greater burden. “Cuddling” therapy is bad science and bad practice. It is cruel to blame the victim.
A commenter on an Ex-gay Survivor blog had this to say:
Michael,
Thanks – I did not think they were credentialed therapists. That certainly explains why they are able to use the methods they do and not be accountable for doing so. Based on this information, I feel even stronger about the participants taking responsibility for engaging in activity that they did not feel comfortable with. They could have and probably should have said no to it and left. This does not absolve the leaders or facilitators from anything inappropriate or against the law, however, if an individual chose to attend, chose to participate, and chose to stay, then they are responsible as well for any harm they want to talk about later.
If two individuals are willing to be participants in any kind of therapy, then they also have the ability to stop that therapy if they sense harm. As to the issue of medical treatments that can cause bodily injury, then the medical professional administering them should be held responsible.
To answer your question with a possible scenario, I would think if a wife or partnered woman chooses to get an IVF treatment from an anonymous doner, without her husband’s or partner’s approval, then there is the potential to harm the husband or partner and the innocent child born to the woman, and perhaps even the woman if the husband or partner leaves her based on her deception and she is left to raise the child as a single mother. Who is responsible – the woman who sought out the IVF treatment or the doctor who gave it to her?
StraightGrandmother,
With all the awareness brought to this subject and the ancillary components from it, I think an individual has the resources to make an intelligent choice on marriage with someone who experiences attractions to their own gender. If there is decpeption about full disclosure, then I see that as a huge problem and not sure if two people can overcome that breach of trust. Aside from that, people get married for their own personal reasons, not our’s. I wish them well.
StraightGrandmother-
Anne
StraightGrandmother- Ann you ARE smart! I could not come up with another scenario and you did. I think the doctor bears some responsibility because he needs to get his patients background before beginning treatments. If the doctor begins fertility treatments without ever having spoken to the spouse then I think the doc is wrong. The doctor knows that his treatments WILL affect a husband/partner so he is obligated to make his/her inquiries before the first fertility attempt.
As to your first paragraph, “If two individuals are willing to be participants in any kind of therapy” but that is the issue Anne, all these “let’s stay straight (as in the article we are commenting on)” therapies I only see single people at, not couples. These programs are individual therapies, not couples therapy. Just like with the IVF Doctor hte Doc HAS to bring in/bring along the other affected parties and sexual orientation change orientation behaviors therapies do NOT do that.
Ann
StraightGrandmother- Not just the website for Straight Spouses that just kind of anecdotaley backs up the Yarhouse study-
Because I read this on page 41,
“The research suggests, however, that many mixed orientation relationships do not survive. It has been estimated that only about a third of couples even attempt to stay together after disclosure (Buxton, 2004). Of that third that attempt to stay together, only about half remain intact for three or more years (Bux- ton).”
And…. “In the area of sexual fidelity, sexual minority spouses reported a higher than average number of extramarital relationships (44.2% indicating an extra- marital relationship), whereas national averages are at about 10% of women and under 25% of men (Laumann et al., 1994).”
Not only are 44.2% of the sexual minority spouses cheating on their heterosexual spouse but the number is even higher than that, because 15% had reported that they are in an “open” marriage.
These are simply not good numbers Ann, not good at all. First you read the cold dispassionate research but then when you go to StraightSpouse Network and read the first person stories you realize that it is more then just numbers there are actual people represented by those numbers, hurting people.
In poker you can win a hand with a pair of deuces, it can happen, but how likely IS it going to happen, how often.
I agree with Michael Bussee. If you go to one of these “let’s keep st8” retreats the attendees expect that people running it know what they are doing. If I were a participant I would not think to say no. I would do it with trepidation, but still do it since they are telling me to.
Anne
Maybe you are right Ann. Statistically MOM, Mixed Orientation Marriages, are not very often successful, and the person who is harmed the most, is the heterosexual spouse. So I guess I am going by the statistics, not some made up bias on my part. Is that confirmation bias? I am very uneasy about medical or therapeutic efforts when those efforts can harm another person, a second person, not the person who is asking for help. I know I am not saying it right. It seems to me that there is a difference if you want to try some therapy and it just involves yourself. But when you try some therapy and then “try it out to see if it works” on another person, especially an unsuspecting person, that makes me really uneasy. I don’t wish any of them well, I wish them to run for the hills before they have wasted the best years of their life on something that isn’t going to provide them in the long term, a good happy life, for BOTH the sexual minority AND the heterosexual spouse. So far this is what the research shows so that is why I feel this way.
Here is a question, what other medical treatments or therapies does a patient receive that has the potential to harm another person? Maybe you or someone here can think of some, I can’t think of any other one, other than therapy to help a sexual minority lead a heterosexual behaved life.
I seriously doubt they are — and that only compounds the problem — what we have are untrained and uncredentialed practitioners, with little or no training on scientific research, little or no training on standards of care, helper/client ethics or appropriate professional boundaries — and with questionable motivations for wanting to “cuddle” their clients. Unproven and dangerous.
Cohen says:
Cook admitted:
Who knows what motivates other practitioners of such an unproven and potentially abusive form of “therapy”. Who knows what kind of countertransference is taking place?
Michael,
Are these programs staffed with credentialed therapists? For some reason I didn’t think they were.
Ann: I believe that’s the helper’s responsibility, not the client’s. Clients are in a very vulnerable position: depressed, anxious, in crisis. Their judgement is often impaired by their current tormoil — and many are likely to do what the helper suggests.
The therapist or counselor should take every step to make therapy scientifically based, effective and delivered with highest professional and ethical standards — to give clients fully informed consent and to prevent abuse or harm to patients. Do these programs meet that sort of standard for client care?
MIchael, I understand your point.
Especially as a therapist. Sexually inappropriate touching may be (or is likely) forbidden at JIM. Probably best to read guidelines for participants.
But you are confusing the conversation about “skin on skin” at JIM.
Hi Michael,
What level of responsibility to you think the participants should take for engaging in this activity? If they are unaware that this is part of the program, don’t they have the choice to say they will not do it when asked to? If they are made aware that this is part of the program ahead of time, don’t they have the choice to leave? Wouldn’t this choice prevent the harm everyone is referring to?
Teresa,
I guess if men, like the one in the video is saying it helped him, then there is some value in it – for some. For those who did not like it, then it seems the sensible thing to do would be to acknowledge they made a mistake in going. If they felt physically harmed or physically coerced into inappropriate touch therapy, then the police should be called. Exorcisms seem over the top to me but people do them. I think whoever is a willing participant needs to accept their part of the responsibility in either going or staying. Continuous blaming of others for a perceived wrongdoing does not make one a better individual – in any way.
Thanks – I understand how odd approaches have been used for a long time to curing many unwanted conditions or charactistics, however, Box Turtle Bulletin holds no value for me.
The point was, I think, that the approach has no scientific basis and easilty can lead to abuse. I seriously doubt that advocates of cuddling therapy tell their clients either or those things.
If two individuals are willing to be participants in any kind of therapy, then they also have the ability to stop that therapy if they sense harm. As to the issue of medical treatments that can cause bodily injury, then the medical professional administering them should be held responsible.
To answer your question with a possible scenario, I would think if a wife or partnered woman chooses to get an IVF treatment from an anonymous doner, without her husband’s or partner’s approval, then there is the potential to harm the husband or partner and the innocent child born to the woman, and perhaps even the woman if the husband or partner leaves her based on her deception and she is left to raise the child as a single mother. Who is responsible – the woman who sought out the IVF treatment or the doctor who gave it to her?
Teresa,
I guess if men, like the one in the video is saying it helped him, then there is some value in it – for some. For those who did not like it, then it seems the sensible thing to do would be to acknowledge they made a mistake in going. If they felt physically harmed or physically coerced into inappropriate touch therapy, then the police should be called. Exorcisms seem over the top to me but people do them. I think whoever is a willing participant needs to accept their part of the responsibility in either going or staying. Continuous blaming of others for a perceived wrongdoing does not make one a better individual – in any way.
Thanks – I understand how odd approaches have been used for a long time to curing many unwanted conditions or charactistics, however, Box Turtle Bulletin holds no value for me.
David B,
I thought I answered that, but I guess not. Will you ask your question directly and clearly so that I can answer it?
David B., here’s a partial answer from AJ
AJ# ~ Aug 2, 2011 at 9:53 pm
Waiting to hear from AJ whether it was “skin on skin.”
AJ,
Thanks. So, there was no definitive purpose or reasoning to justify the touch therapy, etc.? If I was there, I don’t think I would have particiated.
As just an observation, it reminds me a little of an event called Life Spring that I went to. I was ok until the leaders tried to disorient us to break down our walls. The sessions lasted till around 4 in the morning and we were expected back the next morning at 8. I followed through with it then but know for sure I wouldn’t do it now. When the controlling kicked in, I knew something was not right. Anyhow, I really appreciate the information you are sharing – thank you.
Ann, I understand your wanting to be tolerant, and not judgmental. I try to be that way myself, failing many times. I hope, though, more people have been helped through this, than harmed. For me, this sounds rather over-the-top in therapeutic choices.
This seems to me very similar to the lead article in Today in History, August 2nd … over at the website, Box Turtle Bulletin. These odd approaches to ‘curing’ homosexuality have been around for a long, long time. The article speaks about some very strange therapies. It’s worth a look just to see there’s not much new, after all. I guess we fail to learn much from history … especially, when we don’t know what’s gone before.
If I understood it correctly, the touch therapy was just to be an outlet for our attraction to other men, but maybe I am oversimplifying it. This was a while ago. Maybe the touching keeps some married men from going out looking for sex with other men, and in that sense, maybe it does some good. I don’t think, however, that it any way lessens same sex attraction.
I do want to make a clarification about the “skin on skin” comment. During my weekend, no one took any of their clothes off in the large group sessions.
Also, Christians need to be warned that this is in no way a Christian weekend. It was VERY new agey. As a Christian, that also made me uncomfortable. It also operates using the tactics of a cult. The leaders tried to disorient you to break down your walls and control you. I think that has the potential to be very dangerous, and I have a real problem with that.
AJ,
Thank you – this is very helpful information. I do understand why you would feel uncomfortable and am not sure if their methods are appropriate. Did they or do they tell the participants what the benefits or value is in doing the touch therapy?
I don’t think this is what they were getting at. Most of the guys there had felt plenty of men before. And they seemed to promote this therapy as a lifestyle, as a way to deal with the attractions. They said that we just have stronger same sex needs that most men, even though all men have them, and this is how we are to deal with these needs. We were supposed to continue doing the touch therapy, but only with straight men who were willing. I remember thinking, “what straight man is going to cradle me in his lap and whisper affirmations to me?” I didn’t continue with their groups, but it seems like local loosely-knit groups form in local areas where they go camping etc. and I believe they practice this with each other. I have to believe that the married men who were there would not have happy wives if they saw what goes on. Even though Rich and the other leaders always said that this had to be completely non-sexual, they looked the other way when people went too far in my opinion. There were two participants who seemed to fall for each other over the weekend. They would always sit together, often with one guy rubbing the inner thigh of the other. It really made me uncomfortable. I kept thinking, “isn’t one of the leaders going to say something?”
Teresa, I wanted to understand the purpose behind what they do not their actual practices. If the purpose is understood, then what they actually do will make more sense to me.
I don’t think gay or straight make a difference in the point I was making. I don’t think we have the right to permit or not permit two consenting adults to touch and feel each other. It is not for me to approve or not approve – I might have an opinion but it is just that, an opinion – not a judgment or edict on what they should do.
I haven’t.
That is why I asked the question I did – I wanted to know what the reasoning was.
Perhaps
David B,
I thought I answered that, but I guess not. Will you ask your question directly and clearly so that I can answer it?
David B., hugging each other is a far cry from skin-on-skin contact … a far cry from sitting next to each other in Church.
JIM is just another variant, either for str8 or gay men, to act only as Warriors. What of the multitude of men, some of them gay, who prefer the arts, music, design, haute couture, culinary arts, literature, etc.? This is just more of the same old, same old. Men do not have to be Warriors to be men. Women don’t have to wear lipstick and skirts to be women. This is a very facile and crude attempt to pigeon hole people for the sake of others comfort … including their own internalized dislike of themselves.
We don’t like some people the way they are … these persons in turn internalize that dislike … so, now they chase every ‘fad’ to be accepted by persons, who really won’t accept them no matter how they appear on the outside.
I might think they are falling in love. At least, that’s what happened in my case. 🙂
AJ,
The issue is the quote: “skin to skin.”
Is that what you observed on the weekend?
Warren,
Christians have formed sects called Quakers, Shakers and so on. Think of alter calls and camp meetings.
If two ex-gay men hug each other in church or sit next to each other too close, what does your church think?
Look up Joe Kort, M.A. on google search. XGW had a posting from him, I don’t know if they still do. For some time he advocated Warrior weekends for gay and straight men.
Ann, you may try to be understanding of JIM practices; but, try putting this into a str8 context. How about men and women who are afraid/curious/full of desire … should we permit them to touch and feel each other … skin on skin? Would you approve of that, Ann?
Have we lost our common sense here? Men, sexually attracted to other men, need to learn appropriate boundaries, just as men attracted to women need to. Homosexual men don’t need to be feeling and touching other men to develop proper friendships.
Perhaps, that’s what George Rekers was doing, when he was having his ‘daily massages’.
David B., here’s a partial answer from AJ
AJ# ~ Aug 2, 2011 at 9:53 pm
David B.,
thanks – I like what it says – a lot.
Regarding the skin to skin issue – do they do this to demystify the curiosity and desire one might feel for another man and, instead, allow another perspective to perhaps be felt? I don’t think I agree with it but am trying to be open minded and fair to understand the purpose of it. I know when I have been or am afraid/curious/desireous (which can happen all at the same time), I find if I confront or face those feelings, often I feel more control over them and they lose some of the power they originally had with or over me. Is this sort of what they do it for – to allow men to feel each other with limitations and control and appreciate them as equals?
Waiting to hear from AJ whether it was “skin on skin.”
Ann,
It is from the Journey Into Manhood Weekend.
Michael – If Exodus mission period was about congruence then their resources sections wouldn’t look like The Reparative Therapists Favorite Book List.
What is the opposite of heterosexuality?
What does Exodus mean by ‘homosexuality’? Behavior, or same-gender sexual behavior?
Several questions from this quote come to mind:
1.) Don’t str8 people fit somewhere in all this?
2.) How many str8 men have deeply fulfilling friendships with other men?
3.) How many str8 people live a life aligned with God’s will for them?
Finally, back to the idea of “the opposite of homosexuality is holiness” … it really miffs me that I’m supposed to be holy … and, str8 persons are what?
Why the difference? Why are gay persons called to ‘be holy’, in a community that most often could care less about us … and, frankly, most don’t think we’re even ‘normal’.
Why’s the bar raised so high for us, and not for str8 persons?
AJ,
Thanks. So, there was no definitive purpose or reasoning to justify the touch therapy, etc.? If I was there, I don’t think I would have particiated.
As just an observation, it reminds me a little of an event called Life Spring that I went to. I was ok until the leaders tried to disorient us to break down our walls. The sessions lasted till around 4 in the morning and we were expected back the next morning at 8. I followed through with it then but know for sure I wouldn’t do it now. When the controlling kicked in, I knew something was not right. Anyhow, I really appreciate the information you are sharing – thank you.
Ann, I understand your wanting to be tolerant, and not judgmental. I try to be that way myself, failing many times. I hope, though, more people have been helped through this, than harmed. For me, this sounds rather over-the-top in therapeutic choices.
This seems to me very similar to the lead article in Today in History, August 2nd … over at the website, Box Turtle Bulletin. These odd approaches to ‘curing’ homosexuality have been around for a long, long time. The article speaks about some very strange therapies. It’s worth a look just to see there’s not much new, after all. I guess we fail to learn much from history … especially, when we don’t know what’s gone before.
If I understood it correctly, the touch therapy was just to be an outlet for our attraction to other men, but maybe I am oversimplifying it. This was a while ago. Maybe the touching keeps some married men from going out looking for sex with other men, and in that sense, maybe it does some good. I don’t think, however, that it any way lessens same sex attraction.
I do want to make a clarification about the “skin on skin” comment. During my weekend, no one took any of their clothes off in the large group sessions.
Also, Christians need to be warned that this is in no way a Christian weekend. It was VERY new agey. As a Christian, that also made me uncomfortable. It also operates using the tactics of a cult. The leaders tried to disorient you to break down your walls and control you. I think that has the potential to be very dangerous, and I have a real problem with that.
StraightGrandmother,
Neither do I. I do think there is something very wrong in projecting a set of beliefs that might apply to some, onto everyone. You believe something, therefore it must apply to everyone. Should someone not fit the mold you’ve already made up your mind about, you want to diminish it, therefore confirming your bias. I’m not sure what benefit is derived from that.
AJ,
Thank you – this is very helpful information. I do understand why you would feel uncomfortable and am not sure if their methods are appropriate. Did they or do they tell the participants what the benefits or value is in doing the touch therapy?
I don’t think this is what they were getting at. Most of the guys there had felt plenty of men before. And they seemed to promote this therapy as a lifestyle, as a way to deal with the attractions. They said that we just have stronger same sex needs that most men, even though all men have them, and this is how we are to deal with these needs. We were supposed to continue doing the touch therapy, but only with straight men who were willing. I remember thinking, “what straight man is going to cradle me in his lap and whisper affirmations to me?” I didn’t continue with their groups, but it seems like local loosely-knit groups form in local areas where they go camping etc. and I believe they practice this with each other. I have to believe that the married men who were there would not have happy wives if they saw what goes on. Even though Rich and the other leaders always said that this had to be completely non-sexual, they looked the other way when people went too far in my opinion. There were two participants who seemed to fall for each other over the weekend. They would always sit together, often with one guy rubbing the inner thigh of the other. It really made me uncomfortable. I kept thinking, “isn’t one of the leaders going to say something?”
Teresa, I wanted to understand the purpose behind what they do not their actual practices. If the purpose is understood, then what they actually do will make more sense to me.
I don’t think gay or straight make a difference in the point I was making. I don’t think we have the right to permit or not permit two consenting adults to touch and feel each other. It is not for me to approve or not approve – I might have an opinion but it is just that, an opinion – not a judgment or edict on what they should do.
I haven’t.
That is why I asked the question I did – I wanted to know what the reasoning was.
Perhaps
David B,
I attended a JIM weekend. I can assure you that their holding therapy is nothing like you would see straight men do during a moving spiritual service. At your church, do you and your buddies lay in each other’s laps?
Interesting that Exodus may be getting closer to doing that:
Of course, I strongly disagree with Exodus’ belief that homosexuality is unholy. But, it would be really nice it that was their “mission, period”: Helping people live in accordance with their faith, not orientation change. That is more honest, in my opinion. What Warren refers to as “calling is what it is”.
Before she left Exodus, in a keynote address, Wendy Gritter urged Exodus leaders to “deal humbly and transparently with the perception that we have lied [about orientation change].”
That was several years ago, and they seemed to strongly resist her suggestion that they change the “change” lingo — and really clarify what they mean by “change” and “freedom from homosexuality”.
She told me that she believed that many in Exodus actually wanted to shift to a “congruence model”, but that the leadership of Exodus was worried they might lose allies and funding if they did. John Smid told me he had the same impression. But time has passed. Perhaps they are finally listening to her.
Amen to that.
David B., hugging each other is a far cry from skin-on-skin contact … a far cry from sitting next to each other in Church.
JIM is just another variant, either for str8 or gay men, to act only as Warriors. What of the multitude of men, some of them gay, who prefer the arts, music, design, haute couture, culinary arts, literature, etc.? This is just more of the same old, same old. Men do not have to be Warriors to be men. Women don’t have to wear lipstick and skirts to be women. This is a very facile and crude attempt to pigeon hole people for the sake of others comfort … including their own internalized dislike of themselves.
We don’t like some people the way they are … these persons in turn internalize that dislike … so, now they chase every ‘fad’ to be accepted by persons, who really won’t accept them no matter how they appear on the outside.
Forgive me if I’m being unconscionably naïve, but could someone kindly explain to me why gay men should need a journey into manhood? Gay men are men by definition, just as straight men are. Why do they need to, and how indeed can they, make a journey into something that they’re in already?
Ann,
Anne- I am sorry but I don’t know what confirmation bias is.
If I remember the video correctly the young man had his first gay sexual experience at age 23 and then married heterosexually at age 25. So he knew he was gay and still went on to marry a heterosexual woman. The young man in the video has already been through some JIM “therapy” and is back at least for the second time at the reunion.
Ann I remember the Yarhouse study statistically what a slim chance this couple has to have a long happy marriage. Then just yesterday I started reading the comments over at Straight Spouse Network, the comments curled my hair Ann they really did. I think it is just a better idea for sexual minorities to NOT attempt marriage with a heterosexual spouse. That is what I think Ann after having studied it a bit here on Warren’s website. Thus I wish them well individually and not provide false hope or encouragement for their marriage. Easy for me to do since I don’t know them, I know. To many comments over at the Straight Spouse network are how they wasted years and years of their life with being married to a sexual minority and they regret it.
Probably my thoughts on sexual minorities influences my “well wishes.” I don’t think there is anything wrong with being gay, lesbian, bi or transgender. Nor do I think it is sinful. To me it is perfectly normal, simply they are a sexual minority is all. I think everyone is happier when they marry a person they are naturally sexually attracted to, and that don’t have to go to “let’s stay straight” retreats to keep the marriage going.
David Blakeslee,
Who wrote the definition of change that you posted?
PS – RE: JIM’s view of change. Most of it is really congruence with values and not change. Just call it what it is.
Rich set the bar pretty high when he said he was not attracted to men at all.
David – At my church we do not do what JIM does. Sure, social hugging is fine, what goes on at a JIM weekend is not the same.
Skin-to-skin is descriptive of what I have been told takes place at JIM weekends. Bare chested guys hugging and cuddling is not something I can understand in that context. We don’t do that at church.
I wouldn’t approve or think it effective if I learned that Ryan Kendall used his imagination and a bat to kill Joseph Nicolosi.
Who is the XGW guy?
LOL – I’m pretty sure it can’t. And hey, if the man and woman in this relationship are ok oggling other men together, at least that’s one thing they have in common 😉
David B –
I think most reasonable people agree that this should be how change is understood – the problem is that many ex-gay groups, for a long time, and even some still today, suggest that change is something different.
Can someone explain to me how getting naked, touching or cuddling other men can help a gay guy to stop liking it? 🙂
David B,
I attended a JIM weekend. I can assure you that their holding therapy is nothing like you would see straight men do during a moving spiritual service. At your church, do you and your buddies lay in each other’s laps?
Amen to that.
Forgive me if I’m being unconscionably naïve, but could someone kindly explain to me why gay men should need a journey into manhood? Gay men are men by definition, just as straight men are. Why do they need to, and how indeed can they, make a journey into something that they’re in already?
I would think that if a couple makes a decision to partnership up then one would wish them well. It is a decision they make together.
SG, your statment seems sort of like the same thing said of gays and lesbians not so long ago, that while people didn’t approve of their relationships they did hope the idividuals did well. Hmmm…. kind of funny.
David – At my church we do not do what JIM does. Sure, social hugging is fine, what goes on at a JIM weekend is not the same.
Skin-to-skin is descriptive of what I have been told takes place at JIM weekends. Bare chested guys hugging and cuddling is not something I can understand in that context. We don’t do that at church.
I wouldn’t approve or think it effective if I learned that Ryan Kendall used his imagination and a bat to kill Joseph Nicolosi.
Who is the XGW guy?
Oh! For a perfect world…everything would be so much better.
Here is a definition of Change Warren rightly aspires to:
Also from the article, above:
Cuddling the gay away: With homosexual “conversion” in the news again, we look at the extra-weird practice of same-sex touch therapy” ~ By Tracy Clark-Flory
http://www.salon.com/life/sex/index.html?story=/mwt/feature/2011/08/01/ex_gay
Warren,
I read your brief article. I don’t understand this:
JIM promotes skin-to-skin therapy
I am completely baffled. Can you make your arguments about a technique without using TWO hyperbole?
Are Christians who have Same Sex attractions not allowed to hug and cry and hold eachother during moving spiritual services? Do you forbid such “skin to skin” activity in your church?
In discussing Ryan Kendall’s rage at his treatment by NARTH, I doubt the courage he mustered over the last 14 years is “purely cerebral” either. My hunch is he pounded a few pillows, hugged and held other men non-sexually and shed many tears. He may have had some rage at his father or mother that he acted out.
He may have found it “curative” of his self-loathing (internalized homophobia). I would encourage him to do whatever helps a suicidal, homeless gay man. As a psychologist.
I would remind everyone that Ex-gay Watch has encouraged the contributions of an author who strongly recommends Warrior Weekends for Gay men. Warrior Weekends are often populated by Mental Health workers.
Lets get real.
LOL – I’m pretty sure it can’t. And hey, if the man and woman in this relationship are ok oggling other men together, at least that’s one thing they have in common 😉
David B –
I think most reasonable people agree that this should be how change is understood – the problem is that many ex-gay groups, for a long time, and even some still today, suggest that change is something different.
StraightGrandmother,
Since you don’t wish them well as a couple, are you wishing them well individually if they stay together as a couple or is your wish for them individually contingent on them not staying together as a couple? Also, since this is their choice, what benefit do you derive from not wishing them well as a couple? Confirmation bias?
I would think that if a couple makes a decision to partnership up then one would wish them well. It is a decision they make together.
SG, your statment seems sort of like the same thing said of gays and lesbians not so long ago, that while people didn’t approve of their relationships they did hope the idividuals did well. Hmmm…. kind of funny.
Oh! For a perfect world…everything would be so much better.
Also from the article, above:
I might be thinking a little different than Lynn, I am not so much concerned about the sexual minority in a mixed orientation marriage as I am deeply concerned for the heterosexual spouse. I first heard about Straight Spouse Network when both Yarhouse and Warren mentioned them as a source for their research. I didn’t think much about it until Theresa mentioned them in a comment then I went over and started reading. http://www.voy.com/86426/
I guess I don’t wish them well as a “couple” I wish them well individually.
I am not too sure about Journey into Manhood but I sure do wish this young couple and their new family many blessings.
Even though their sex life is supposedly “great”, the wife in the video says that she and her husband sometimes “check out” the same men. She says she would rather have him do it openly than try to hide it. She explains that they have “very different taste” in men, but she prefers that he “take a full-on look” rather than have him “keep trying to sneak a peak”. It is often said that common interests help to keep a marriage strong. Perhaps this is one example of that. 🙂
I heard the NPR report on my way to work this morning. I recognized Wyler’s name, but couldn’t place who he was. It’s a huge omission for NPR to not disclose the controversial organization Wyler is associated with. It’s also disappointing that NPR didn’t seek your input or more typical ex-gay organizations like NARTH or Exodus.
When the reporter pressed Wyler about whether he was still attracted to men, I was surprised to hear Wyler deny having any sexual attractions to men. It’s rare for an honest ex-gay activist to say they no longer have any same-sex attractions. Most ex-gays I’ve heard admit to having some same-sex attractions.
Even though their sex life is supposedly “great”, the wife in the video says that she and her husband sometimes “check out” the same men. She says she would rather have him do it openly than try to hide it. She explains that they have “very different taste” in men, but she prefers that he “take a full-on look” rather than have him “keep trying to sneak a peak”. It is often said that common interests help to keep a marriage strong. Perhaps this is one example of that. 🙂