Well, if they do what they normally do, this should be entertaining.
I wonder if they will do the Cohen hold?
120 thoughts on “Journey into Manhood on ABC Nightline tonight”
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A college psychology professor's observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues
Well, if they do what they normally do, this should be entertaining.
I wonder if they will do the Cohen hold?
Comments are closed.
@ Jayhuck,
Agreed.
Prior to the framework…the APA provided no guidelines, none.
JIM and NARTH are creations, in part, out of years of neglect by the APA. This neglect was not passive, it was active and focused generally on the religiously devout as “mentally weak and superstitious” (see the DSM III for numerous religious examples of mental illness). The data now refutes those longstanding assumptions and the APA is moving in the right direction.
A community will always seek to be heard and helped. Even if that help is flawed, or politicized or spiritualized or poorly informed.
GLBTQ folks should understand that more than anyone…
Now that is creepy.
As for Joe Kort, I have no control over who he puts on his blog roll. He wrote a few posts for XGW back around 2004, and the logo he has for us is from that time period.
The in-depth article by Ted Cox is really excellent. He was far more objective than I suspect most could have been, and was quite generous in some areas. Mostly, and I suspect this is the main problem for you, he has dared to actually chronicle for others what goes on in those weekends. In the light of day, JiM is an obvious farce.
David B,
Wow… “even if you never change”
Wyler’s statement is simultaneously condemning and condescending. It’s impossible to miss the implication that you should change, while yet suggesting that you may just be a little weakling who can’t change but we’ll humor you even if you are a failure.
I know that it’s easy to assume that because I’m gay that I fit your assumptions about “the predictor of the association”, but I was neither particularly gender atypical nor ridiculed. I grew up in a fairly small town and I was pretty much accepted – at least peripherally – into all the cliques or groups. And for some strange reason that I still don’t understand, the bullies kinda liked me.
I truly haven’t the faintest idea what you mean.
In regards to the Journey weekend: you have not responded to the scientifically validated portion of the experiential weekend, which emphasizes the role of peer ridicule as a destructive force in the gender atypical adolescent.
I believe Warren did a factor analysis of events associated with SSA and found that this factor was the best predictor of the association, much stronger than the Distant Father, Engulfing Mother hypothesis.
I believe the rather cynical article that David Roberts refers to here: http://www.alternet.org/story/146557/?page=entire
he describes rather ignorantly as “shit-talk typical of high school kids” is where the program seeks to deal with peer ridicule for what it is, cruel.
David Roberts, Jayhuck, Timothy and others…your remarks about bullying on other posts could inform the author of the article more clearly about what it is like to be gender atypical and ridiculed.
The author is trying to uncover perceived fraud while being a fraud himself. This is the nature of investigative journalism, but it does effect the lens with which he rights. He knows someone is being dishonest and misleading…and we know for sure that he is. Sometimes when you spot it…you got it.
And to Timothy…I said before, this is no echo chamber and you have proved my point. The echo chamber is in your community.
Which leads back to my original comments to Blakeslee.
C-R-E-E-P-Y!
David Blakeslee – surely you know that people go to all kinds of weekend retreats/ seminars filled with all kinds of talking, holding, crystal-using, herbal-tea drinking, past-releasing events and exercises – and many of these people report positive results. I would never fault the people who go to such unproven so-called therapeutic events, but rather the organizers who prey upon those who are desperate for something that they forego honest therapy and shell out hundreds or even thousands of dollars for a weekend of naked holding in the woods. Cmon
David,
I wasn’t gender a-typical
For those of you who have been assailed in your journey with the word “creepy,” I would encourage you to remember how it felt…and to have others chime in as a group.
In regards to “cultish.” I would ask you to consider a gay affirmative man who is a thoughtful and reasoned clinician who speaks nationally on issues of sexuality
Joe Kort, Ph.D. LCSW
He endorses the Mankind Project…I think he has participated and led weekends. It might be good to get him to comment here.
http://www.joekort.com/links.htm
You’ll also find that he endorses Ex-gay Watch, David Roberts…is he one of your creepy cult leaders?
“”That’s not who we are, that’s not how we think, that’s never what we say. In fact, we tell the men — quote — ‘If you gain nothing else from this weekend, we want you to know you are good and valuable just as you are, today, unchanged, and even if you never change.”
Rich Wyler, used by permission.
Welcome Timothy and Stephen
Keep them coming David Roberts…your feelings are welcome here.
Regarding Mr. Cox’s reflections on JIM. I have read his article and see it for it’s flaws and strengths.
Regarding Dr. Kort, I believe as a gay affirmative therapist he may have found Warrior Weekends helpful for gay men in building a spiritual and safe community to deal with the bigotries and humiliation inflicted on gay men in other masculine communities.
He does not appear to be creepy or cultish, but thoughtful and compassionate.
If you don’t like him, I suggest you openly repudiate him on your Blog and expose what you believe is his exploitation and manipulation of gay men through Warriors.
In the mean time, take your name calling mob elsewhere.
Yeah, I got that impression as well Tim.
Wild claims of success which cannot be scientifically validated, using methods which otherwise have no basis in qualified research are the hallmark of a sham. JiM is closer to the iRenew bracelet than ice cream, but Timothy’s comment is quite valid — their claims are absolutely useless.
If you would prefer to hear basically the same thing in longer format by a PhD, here you go.
Blakeslee, watching your activity in this thread has made me truly embarrassed for you. As I said in my earlier remarks, your vacillation between the sober and swill is really difficult to understand.
To those who might feel somehow drawn to one of these activities, please seek out legitimate information before hand, and try to avoid the “delirious disciples.” Anything useful that you might happen to fall over at such an event can be found in much more genuinely therapeutic ways elsewhere — and likely for less money and imposition on your life.
One of these days this amateur effort will end up lighting a fuse in a genuinely troubled mind, one for which their chants and hugs will be no match. When things finally blow up a week or a month later, no waiver will not be enough to protect them from the moral, civil and criminal ramifications. Let’s hope enough people see through this before that happens.
They don’t always intersect for Timothy.
Dear AJ,
I trust your conclusion both about your experience on the weekend and your conclusions about how much it helped or didn’t help.
There is a selection bias in people who participate in the weekends.
There is a selection bias in the people who return surveys.
I would be interested if you found other benefits to the weekend (i.e. greater self-acceptance, a broader community of support…see the survey for the various categories).
I pray for your happiness and health in a community that cares and respects you…no matter where or what that looks like.
Lucky for Tim he can be both funny and intelligent 🙂
I guess they did the survey before I attended. I wonder why they don’t do continous followup. Personally, I thought the weekend was harmless, but it didn’t do anything to change my attractions. I guess if their survey is right, I’m in a very small minority of participants. I have a hard time believing that though.
Probably shouldn’t have been smoking it while you were reading the thread.
AJ
You can find the survey results here:
http://www.peoplecanchange.com/jim/2007survey.pdf
If you want to participate in future surveys, I Imagine you can contact PCP directly…
@ Timothy,
Read through the post…and you will catch up.
In related news, a survey of repeat customers of Baskin Robbins who agreed to participate, found that Baskin Robbins icecream made them happier.
I went to one of the JIM weekends. In fact, I was there the same weekend as Ted Cox. Blakeslee, I don’t recall any data collection from me. What type of data collection do they perform? Maybe I’m forgetting something sent right after the weekend. I still get emails from Rich Wyler for his workshops, etc. so they have my contact information if they wanted to do a follow up a year or two years later. Do they only collect data from people who stay active in their program?
Having reread the thread twice, all I can say is… maybe it’s time to put down the pipe, Whitney, you’re not making sense any more.
@ Timothy,
You responded to “Echo Chamber” but apparently did not read all that preceded it. I think all you need to know is in that post. Take you time, catch up.
David Roberts,
At times my comments seem creepy?
…almost lucid?
Just read them…just seem like observations to me.
David, have you attended them…not to be personal? What “cult” behavior are you imagining?
Cult…creepy?
If we could return to the topic…people finding ways to deal with their SSA; JIM is one of them. Let’s not belittle them under a simplistic rubric…
…it is kind of like bullying.
You can drop the attempts to connect any of this to bullying, Blakeslee, it doesn’t fly. If anything, I see the participants as the exploited. As for participating, I do not need to become a Scientologist to know what it’s all about, and they are experts in secrecy.
JiM is packed with New Warrior crap. Run that mysticism by a few pastors and see what kind of reaction you get. JiM doesn’t even pass the smell test. But from your response I’m going to assume you have attended one of them at least.
They use a holding position named “The Cohen” after Richard Cohen??? Yeah, creepy is being mild. If you want to align yourself with groups like that, expect some questions about your own credibility.
Did you notice the comments from the wife of the guy who was featured as very positive about his success? She said they both look at men and noted that his type is different than hers. Nothing but your average heterosexual family.
Now for those who are truly heterosexual, imagine being in a room with a dozen pretty, mostly young women who all take their clothes off to hug and hold you — because obviously your attraction to women is due to your lack of love from your mom. Do you suspect you would find good things to say about the experience (while keeping it shrouded in the pretense of therapy so your wife doesn’t kill you)?
Now try all that while chanting about women, describing their attributes, and visualizing the idyllic female figure, and who knows what else. Now go take a shower, because yes it is that sleazy.
LOL – THEY do the data collection. Has their been any scientific evidence to prove the programs efficacy or do we simply rely on anecdotal evidence? And what about the people who have reported harm from the program, or those who years later realiz they were living a lie? The Rabbi made a great statement about so-called re-orientation programs that everyone should listen to.
What about the damage to families and spouses of these men who many years later realize they were wrong?
Playing with fire/people’s lives – you’d think that re-orientation groups would learn, but apparently they don’t.
I don’t blame the men in these groups David, I blame the people who run the camps – who lie about gay people and promise things they can’t truly deliver. What a sham, and a shame
A great piece at Ex-Gay watch on this group and their claims:
Journey Into Manhood
“there’s no evidence that someone can change his or her orientation through these religiously motivated programs”
There’s no evidence you can’t change it. And JiM weekend isn’t a religious program.
“often their wives, friends, family, and church members have no idea they struggle with SSA.”
Every person is free to tell who ever they want about their SSA. Although, nobody should deal with it alone.
“the men and women that I met throughout this project dealt with a cycle of repression, backsliding into sin, then shame, guilt, and repentance.”
Everything but repression, backsliding into sin, shame, guilt and repentance. Instead, acceptance, love, and change.
“paid the non-refundable retreat deposit”
You have time to ask for a refund after you get the information, come on!
“The decision was not easy.”
Don’t take the “hero” part of the story.
“Have they never felt like men?”
Have they ever felt like men? You said you are not dealing with SSA so why do you judge?
“trying desperately to change their orientation.”
Why do you assume that? Let me tell you something: not everybody goes only to change their sexual orientation, but to fulfill core needs
“And yet, despite being raised by an abusive, spiritually castrated father, I have a strong preference for women.”
Do you think SSA is like math? 2+2=4 no matter what! SSA is different, every situattion is different and unique.
“I should be asking the guys in my carpool what they thought of the weekend”
You should have asked them. I bet someone in your vehicle asked the others. And actually, I think you can ask them now. I bet it was a extraordinary weekend for almost everyone, like in mine.
“But I’m too tired to think about that. I haven’t slept in two days”
What kind of “undercover spy” are you? Don’t be a girl, a hero! If you didn’t sleep it was because you didn’t want to!
“I turn around to ask Tony, the guy who had attended “Journey into Manhood” years earlier, how the weekend was different this time around”
And you couldn’t ask them if they liked it or not? What they thought about it? Weren’t you so tired you couldn’t ask anything?
“Sure, Dave could finally live out and proud”
Proud of what? Of being like every man that finds he has SSA? I have SSA, I’m proud of my self, my beliefs, my religion, the way I live my life and I’m proud I will let people with unwanted SSA know there’s hope, no matter what pro-gay activists think or want.
And you are wrong: JiM weekend and other kind of therapy or changing retreats aren’t like medicine. You don’t take it and that’s all. Change takes time, but PEOPLE CAN CHANGE and you have to respect those who want to change, those who don’t find an option in a gay life.
And even if you could really prove men with SSA are born that way, nobody has to live like that if it doesn’t fit themselves.
[email protected]
twitter: @yopuedocambiar
“there’s no evidence that someone can change his or her orientation through these religiously motivated programs”
There’s no evidence you can’t change it. And JiM weekend isn’t a religious program.
“often their wives, friends, family, and church members have no idea they struggle with SSA.”
Every person is free to tell who ever they want about their SSA. Although, nobody should deal with it alone.
“the men and women that I met throughout this project dealt with a cycle of repression, backsliding into sin, then shame, guilt, and repentance.”
Everything but repression, backsliding into sin, shame, guilt and repentance. Instead, acceptance, love, and change.
“paid the non-refundable retreat deposit”
You have time to ask for a refund after you get the information, come on!
“The decision was not easy.”
Don’t take the “hero” part of the story.
“Have they never felt like men?”
Have they ever felt like men? You said you are not dealing with SSA so why do you judge?
“trying desperately to change their orientation.”
Why do you assume that? Let me tell you something: not everybody goes only to change their sexual orientation, but to fulfill core needs
“And yet, despite being raised by an abusive, spiritually castrated father, I have a strong preference for women.”
Do you think SSA is like math? 2+2=4 no matter what! SSA is different, every situattion is different and unique.
“I should be asking the guys in my carpool what they thought of the weekend”
You should have asked them. I bet someone in your vehicle asked the others. And actually, I think you can ask them now. I bet it was a extraordinary weekend for almost everyone, like in mine.
“But I’m too tired to think about that. I haven’t slept in two days”
What kind of “undercover spy” are you? Don’t be a girl, a hero! If you didn’t sleep it was because you didn’t want to!
“I turn around to ask Tony, the guy who had attended “Journey into Manhood” years earlier, how the weekend was different this time around”
And you couldn’t ask them if they liked it or not? What they thought about it? Weren’t you so tired you couldn’t ask anything?
“Sure, Dave could finally live out and proud”
Proud of what? Of being like every man that finds he has SSA? I have SSA, I’m proud of my self, my beliefs, my religion, the way I live my life and I’m proud I will let people with unwanted SSA know there’s hope, no matter what pro-gay activists think or want.
And you are wrong: JiM weekend and other kind of therapy or changing retreats aren’t like medicine. You don’t take it and that’s all. Change takes time, but PEOPLE CAN CHANGE and you have to respect those who want to change, those who don’t find an option in a gay life.
And even if you could really prove men with SSA are born that way, nobody has to live like that if it doesn’t fit themselves.
[email protected]
twitter: @yopuedocambiar
@Rebecca
A fascinating comparison, JiM weekend to a gay bathhouse. I can’t make any sense of your question, but the comparison is interesting.
@Rebecca
A fascinating comparison, JiM weekend to a gay bathhouse. I can’t make any sense of your question, but the comparison is interesting.
Which is creepier? Going to a JiM weekend or going to a gay bathhouse? Have those who are gay or straight on here ever been to a bathhouse? Was it creepy?
Which is creepier? Going to a JiM weekend or going to a gay bathhouse? Have those who are gay or straight on here ever been to a bathhouse? Was it creepy?
Wow, I hadn’t seen that one yet. Like all the other articles I’ve read about MKP/JiM, it is consistent about the details. I also notice that the interviewer in that article used the adjective “creepy” so I’m not alone in that. The more one reads about it, the creepier it seems.
They are persistent, yes. Even when debating about it one is repeatedly asked to go.
David R,
Those disciples of naked-in-the-woods programs can certainly be devoted, can’t they.
For example, Steven Eggleston’s boss really really wanted him to participate in the ManKind Project. When he found out that it included a lot of nakedness, passing around a wooden dildo, and telling your lurid sexual secrets to the other men, he said “thanks but that’s not for me”
After repeated rejections of his boss’ increasingly insistent invitation, (he just didn’t want to sit naked discussing his sex life with his boss or have any inappropriate touching) it didn’t go well:
David Roberts,
Wow…
Let me know how the conversation goes with Kort, the “creepy cultist” who recommends your site and and Mankind Project. To me he seems like a hard working guy trying to uncover every stone to help his community.
Regarding science…GLSEN has surveys that are non-scientific but which emphasize important points about the vulnerability of the community. They are worth adding to the conversation about bullying and depression in gay and lesbian youth.
We all take surveys from the institutions who sponsor them with a grain of salt.
With words like “creepy, cultish and now ‘swill'” the personal way in which you deal with those who disagree with you is clearly established.
Wild claims of success which cannot be scientifically validated, using methods which otherwise have no basis in qualified research are the hallmark of a sham. JiM is closer to the iRenew bracelet than ice cream, but Timothy’s comment is quite valid — their claims are absolutely useless.
If you would prefer to hear basically the same thing in longer format by a PhD, here you go.
Blakeslee, watching your activity in this thread has made me truly embarrassed for you. As I said in my earlier remarks, your vacillation between the sober and swill is really difficult to understand.
To those who might feel somehow drawn to one of these activities, please seek out legitimate information before hand, and try to avoid the “delirious disciples.” Anything useful that you might happen to fall over at such an event can be found in much more genuinely therapeutic ways elsewhere — and likely for less money and imposition on your life.
One of these days this amateur effort will end up lighting a fuse in a genuinely troubled mind, one for which their chants and hugs will be no match. When things finally blow up a week or a month later, no waiver will not be enough to protect them from the moral, civil and criminal ramifications. Let’s hope enough people see through this before that happens.
Wow, I hadn’t seen that one yet. Like all the other articles I’ve read about MKP/JiM, it is consistent about the details. I also notice that the interviewer in that article used the adjective “creepy” so I’m not alone in that. The more one reads about it, the creepier it seems.
They are persistent, yes. Even when debating about it one is repeatedly asked to go.
They don’t always intersect for Timothy.
David R,
Those disciples of naked-in-the-woods programs can certainly be devoted, can’t they.
For example, Steven Eggleston’s boss really really wanted him to participate in the ManKind Project. When he found out that it included a lot of nakedness, passing around a wooden dildo, and telling your lurid sexual secrets to the other men, he said “thanks but that’s not for me”
After repeated rejections of his boss’ increasingly insistent invitation, (he just didn’t want to sit naked discussing his sex life with his boss or have any inappropriate touching) it didn’t go well:
Lucky for Tim he can be both funny and intelligent 🙂
David Roberts,
Wow…
Let me know how the conversation goes with Kort, the “creepy cultist” who recommends your site and and Mankind Project. To me he seems like a hard working guy trying to uncover every stone to help his community.
Regarding science…GLSEN has surveys that are non-scientific but which emphasize important points about the vulnerability of the community. They are worth adding to the conversation about bullying and depression in gay and lesbian youth.
We all take surveys from the institutions who sponsor them with a grain of salt.
With words like “creepy, cultish and now ‘swill'” the personal way in which you deal with those who disagree with you is clearly established.
Timothy,
I am rolling on the ground laughing…you are so funny!
On another note, cynicism and sarcasm often masquerade as attempts to sound intelligent.
Maybe there is a reason the bullies liked to hang out with you…
Dear AJ,
I trust your conclusion both about your experience on the weekend and your conclusions about how much it helped or didn’t help.
There is a selection bias in people who participate in the weekends.
There is a selection bias in the people who return surveys.
I would be interested if you found other benefits to the weekend (i.e. greater self-acceptance, a broader community of support…see the survey for the various categories).
I pray for your happiness and health in a community that cares and respects you…no matter where or what that looks like.
In related news, a survey of repeat customers of Baskin Robbins who agreed to participate, found that Baskin Robbins icecream made them happier.
I guess they did the survey before I attended. I wonder why they don’t do continous followup. Personally, I thought the weekend was harmless, but it didn’t do anything to change my attractions. I guess if their survey is right, I’m in a very small minority of participants. I have a hard time believing that though.
AJ
You can find the survey results here:
http://www.peoplecanchange.com/jim/2007survey.pdf
If you want to participate in future surveys, I Imagine you can contact PCP directly…
Timothy,
I am rolling on the ground laughing…you are so funny!
On another note, cynicism and sarcasm often masquerade as attempts to sound intelligent.
Maybe there is a reason the bullies liked to hang out with you…
Probably shouldn’t have been smoking it while you were reading the thread.
Having reread the thread twice, all I can say is… maybe it’s time to put down the pipe, Whitney, you’re not making sense any more.
@ Timothy,
You responded to “Echo Chamber” but apparently did not read all that preceded it. I think all you need to know is in that post. Take you time, catch up.
David B –
Do you mean Ted Cox?
@ Timothy,
Read through the post…and you will catch up.
Again, I have no idea what you are talking about. Who is Tim Cox and why does he support bullying? What mockumentary are we talking about? Is this something I’m supposed to know about?
You’ve lost me.
week = weak 🙂
David,
All I can say is this: getting naked and holding each other in the woods sounds like a terrible way to conduct a retreat that isn’t pagan in nature. There are a lot of wacky groups that meet under the guise of improving people’s lives all over the country – and many of the attendants of these things report improvements in their lives. Whatever floats your boat I suppose
I absolutely believe that the week and the vulnerable need to be protected from wacky groups that take your money and lie to you. Does that help?
Regarding Weekend Retreats,
Let’s think about this.
Marriage Enrichment Weekends.
No Trained Clinicians.
Couples in Crisis.
Bad Science about what improves marriages being shared for over 2 decades.
No vultures, no exploiters…just people trying to meet a need with the best tools available at the time…crappy tools, but the only ones available.
Marital therapy science is better in the last 6 years.
But there is no Cure…and Marital Distress is not a Mental Illness.
Joe Kort is the clinician, with the training, the license and the expertise…he may deserve a second look Timothy. If you think he is flawed, I would welcome your observations, unless they are purely anecdotal.
@ Jayhuck and Timothy,
Making no assumptions about you…only remembering your values about protecting the weak the the vulnerable.
The post was not about your personal experience with bullying, but the vulnerability that “perceived gay and gay identified” children have in a public school setting where ridicule is allowed to be focused on them.
That is what all the outrage was about in previous posts…not your personal experiences.
Tim Cox, in his mockumentary of JIM doesn’t even get that, he sees it as “normal teen” behavior.
I know that it’s easy to assume that because I’m gay that I fit your assumptions about “the predictor of the association”, but I was neither particularly gender atypical nor ridiculed. I grew up in a fairly small town and I was pretty much accepted – at least peripherally – into all the cliques or groups. And for some strange reason that I still don’t understand, the bullies kinda liked me.
I truly haven’t the faintest idea what you mean.
I went to one of the JIM weekends. In fact, I was there the same weekend as Ted Cox. Blakeslee, I don’t recall any data collection from me. What type of data collection do they perform? Maybe I’m forgetting something sent right after the weekend. I still get emails from Rich Wyler for his workshops, etc. so they have my contact information if they wanted to do a follow up a year or two years later. Do they only collect data from people who stay active in their program?
Joe Kort is a nice fellow. We agree on very little, but he’s a good guy.
C-R-E-E-P-Y!
David Blakeslee – surely you know that people go to all kinds of weekend retreats/ seminars filled with all kinds of talking, holding, crystal-using, herbal-tea drinking, past-releasing events and exercises – and many of these people report positive results. I would never fault the people who go to such unproven so-called therapeutic events, but rather the organizers who prey upon those who are desperate for something that they forego honest therapy and shell out hundreds or even thousands of dollars for a weekend of naked holding in the woods. Cmon
David,
I wasn’t gender a-typical
David B –
Do you mean Ted Cox?
Keep them coming David Roberts…your feelings are welcome here.
Regarding Mr. Cox’s reflections on JIM. I have read his article and see it for it’s flaws and strengths.
Regarding Dr. Kort, I believe as a gay affirmative therapist he may have found Warrior Weekends helpful for gay men in building a spiritual and safe community to deal with the bigotries and humiliation inflicted on gay men in other masculine communities.
He does not appear to be creepy or cultish, but thoughtful and compassionate.
If you don’t like him, I suggest you openly repudiate him on your Blog and expose what you believe is his exploitation and manipulation of gay men through Warriors.
In the mean time, take your name calling mob elsewhere.
Again, I have no idea what you are talking about. Who is Tim Cox and why does he support bullying? What mockumentary are we talking about? Is this something I’m supposed to know about?
You’ve lost me.
Now that is creepy.
As for Joe Kort, I have no control over who he puts on his blog roll. He wrote a few posts for XGW back around 2004, and the logo he has for us is from that time period.
The in-depth article by Ted Cox is really excellent. He was far more objective than I suspect most could have been, and was quite generous in some areas. Mostly, and I suspect this is the main problem for you, he has dared to actually chronicle for others what goes on in those weekends. In the light of day, JiM is an obvious farce.
week = weak 🙂
David,
All I can say is this: getting naked and holding each other in the woods sounds like a terrible way to conduct a retreat that isn’t pagan in nature. There are a lot of wacky groups that meet under the guise of improving people’s lives all over the country – and many of the attendants of these things report improvements in their lives. Whatever floats your boat I suppose
I absolutely believe that the week and the vulnerable need to be protected from wacky groups that take your money and lie to you. Does that help?
Regarding Weekend Retreats,
Let’s think about this.
Marriage Enrichment Weekends.
No Trained Clinicians.
Couples in Crisis.
Bad Science about what improves marriages being shared for over 2 decades.
No vultures, no exploiters…just people trying to meet a need with the best tools available at the time…crappy tools, but the only ones available.
Marital therapy science is better in the last 6 years.
But there is no Cure…and Marital Distress is not a Mental Illness.
Joe Kort is the clinician, with the training, the license and the expertise…he may deserve a second look Timothy. If you think he is flawed, I would welcome your observations, unless they are purely anecdotal.
@ Jayhuck and Timothy,
Making no assumptions about you…only remembering your values about protecting the weak the the vulnerable.
The post was not about your personal experience with bullying, but the vulnerability that “perceived gay and gay identified” children have in a public school setting where ridicule is allowed to be focused on them.
That is what all the outrage was about in previous posts…not your personal experiences.
Tim Cox, in his mockumentary of JIM doesn’t even get that, he sees it as “normal teen” behavior.
Joe Kort is a nice fellow. We agree on very little, but he’s a good guy.
In regards to the Journey weekend: you have not responded to the scientifically validated portion of the experiential weekend, which emphasizes the role of peer ridicule as a destructive force in the gender atypical adolescent.
I believe Warren did a factor analysis of events associated with SSA and found that this factor was the best predictor of the association, much stronger than the Distant Father, Engulfing Mother hypothesis.
I believe the rather cynical article that David Roberts refers to here: http://www.alternet.org/story/146557/?page=entire
he describes rather ignorantly as “shit-talk typical of high school kids” is where the program seeks to deal with peer ridicule for what it is, cruel.
David Roberts, Jayhuck, Timothy and others…your remarks about bullying on other posts could inform the author of the article more clearly about what it is like to be gender atypical and ridiculed.
The author is trying to uncover perceived fraud while being a fraud himself. This is the nature of investigative journalism, but it does effect the lens with which he rights. He knows someone is being dishonest and misleading…and we know for sure that he is. Sometimes when you spot it…you got it.
And to Timothy…I said before, this is no echo chamber and you have proved my point. The echo chamber is in your community.
For those of you who have been assailed in your journey with the word “creepy,” I would encourage you to remember how it felt…and to have others chime in as a group.
In regards to “cultish.” I would ask you to consider a gay affirmative man who is a thoughtful and reasoned clinician who speaks nationally on issues of sexuality
Joe Kort, Ph.D. LCSW
He endorses the Mankind Project…I think he has participated and led weekends. It might be good to get him to comment here.
http://www.joekort.com/links.htm
You’ll also find that he endorses Ex-gay Watch, David Roberts…is he one of your creepy cult leaders?
Yeah, I got that impression as well Tim.
David B,
Wow… “even if you never change”
Wyler’s statement is simultaneously condemning and condescending. It’s impossible to miss the implication that you should change, while yet suggesting that you may just be a little weakling who can’t change but we’ll humor you even if you are a failure.
“”That’s not who we are, that’s not how we think, that’s never what we say. In fact, we tell the men — quote — ‘If you gain nothing else from this weekend, we want you to know you are good and valuable just as you are, today, unchanged, and even if you never change.”
Rich Wyler, used by permission.
Which leads back to my original comments to Blakeslee.
Welcome Timothy and Stephen
@ Jayhuck,
Agreed.
Prior to the framework…the APA provided no guidelines, none.
JIM and NARTH are creations, in part, out of years of neglect by the APA. This neglect was not passive, it was active and focused generally on the religiously devout as “mentally weak and superstitious” (see the DSM III for numerous religious examples of mental illness). The data now refutes those longstanding assumptions and the APA is moving in the right direction.
A community will always seek to be heard and helped. Even if that help is flawed, or politicized or spiritualized or poorly informed.
GLBTQ folks should understand that more than anyone…
Have you seen the commercials for the iRenew bracelet?
Oh yes, it works. Just look at all their testimonials from people in the mall who immediately are stronger when they put it on.
I hope that I’m not insulting anyone here by assuming that we laugh at this stuff. Magnets in our belts, crystals over the doorway, Scientology, EST, the Landmark Forum, Tony Robbins, Marianne Williamson, the miracle cure peddlers list is endless.
I recently had a friend – an intelligent educated friend who has an unfortunate penchant for seminars – tell me that the only thing that stands between us and what we want is belief. If we just visualize it we can make it happen. If we just believe enough – with absolutely no doubt – then we can win the lottery. We can make it happen.
Journey into Manhood is just a variation on the theme.
Hey, I have no problem with people spending their weekends (and hard earned dough) on visualization seminars or miracle bracelets or herbal remedies or sitting with a bunch of naked guys in Motorcycle Position. I’m just bemused when intelligent thinking people take it seriously.
David,
You said my comments were creepy…
You said “cultish”…in reference to JIM.
My credibility is intact…you have jumped to very personal attributions.
And it is bullying…
You can drop the attempts to connect any of this to bullying, Blakeslee, it doesn’t fly. If anything, I see the participants as the exploited. As for participating, I do not need to become a Scientologist to know what it’s all about, and they are experts in secrecy.
JiM is packed with New Warrior crap. Run that mysticism by a few pastors and see what kind of reaction you get. JiM doesn’t even pass the smell test. But from your response I’m going to assume you have attended one of them at least.
They use a holding position named “The Cohen” after Richard Cohen??? Yeah, creepy is being mild. If you want to align yourself with groups like that, expect some questions about your own credibility.
No, David, not lucid – creepy. You seem to be personally invested in the ex-gay industry. That’s for your conscience to decide.
I wasn’t going to post about this, David, till your outrageous accusation that those of us who might find this ‘program’ (not its victims, the men too abused and shamed by their families to show their face) childish, pathetic, ludicrous, hurtful, etc, that we were somehow bullying. No. The men who pay $600 to grope each other in secret, they are the victims of a bullying culture suffered in school grown to adulthood.
David,
SIT is an appropriate way for people to deal with unwanted SSA, as well as therapy to help people accept their orientation – JIM is, as David said, creepy and cultish – they lie and offer false promises. They deserve every bit of criticism and disrespect they get because they’ve earned it.
David Roberts,
At times my comments seem creepy?
…almost lucid?
Just read them…just seem like observations to me.
David, have you attended them…not to be personal? What “cult” behavior are you imagining?
Cult…creepy?
If we could return to the topic…people finding ways to deal with their SSA; JIM is one of them. Let’s not belittle them under a simplistic rubric…
…it is kind of like bullying.
Sorry for all the posts, but here is a great piece from a writer who went undercover at a JIM camp – It is worth the time it takes to read!
My Journey Into Manhood
Blakeslee, your rather creepy defense of such practices as Jim and New Warriors has always been rather disturbing to me. At times you seem almost lucid and professional, and at others your sensibilities devolve into support of the bizarre. Above you seem personally wounded by comments about JiM, why is that? Do you attend these things?
I’m sorry if this is personal, I don’t know how else to put it. But please, spare me your justification of these weekend romps through cult male worship. You really should know better.
My Favorite quote from the Ex-Gay Watch Piece:
LOL
A great piece at Ex-Gay watch on this group and their claims:
Journey Into Manhood
David,
That’s a such a nice way of putting these programs ruin lives.
The fact that they alone lie about gay people should in itself be a testament to their character. These groups are nothing but snake oil salesmen. Some will buy their schtick, some will absolutely claim it helps, until the so-called “positive” results reveal themselves for what they are.
I blame them because they are liars David – pure and simple.
Outcome research on everything would help: from general mental conditions, to parenting techniques, to effective organizing strategies for the home.
In the real world we understand that individuals vary in their response to any intervention. Some interventions, which seek to help, hurt. Some, which are accidental, help.
We don’t sue home organizers if our houses are still disorganized. We just assume that their strategy, or our response, was not useful.
You blame them without any scientific evidence.
A re-orientation program? JIM is much too broad to be considered as such.
Re-orientation is a specific intervention housed within dynamic psychotherapy.
LOL – THEY do the data collection. Has their been any scientific evidence to prove the programs efficacy or do we simply rely on anecdotal evidence? And what about the people who have reported harm from the program, or those who years later realiz they were living a lie? The Rabbi made a great statement about so-called re-orientation programs that everyone should listen to.
What about the damage to families and spouses of these men who many years later realize they were wrong?
Playing with fire/people’s lives – you’d think that re-orientation groups would learn, but apparently they don’t.
I don’t blame the men in these groups David, I blame the people who run the camps – who lie about gay people and promise things they can’t truly deliver. What a sham, and a shame
Their focus on peer ridicule is very powerful…and is supported by the data. Helps participants move past stereotypical, preadolescence views of masculinity.
Given all the comments about bullying in previous posts, I think this is helpful to remember…and perhaps you mock them thoughtlessly.
Or, maybe it is deliberate.
In any case many are anxiously, obsessively introspective, perfectionistic, tender-hearted. Good men all.
Hmmm….
Cynicism and sarcasm as thoughtful discussion.
Just can’t frame things in a way that garners the respect of others.
“Unwanted SSA” not good enough.
JIM has a pretty respectful format at demystifying masculinity, and living authentically with SSA. They even do data collection on their participants and their response to the program.
I have known several men from the program over the years, single and married, who report it has been very helpful. They lead full, meaningful and happy lives.
I could talk about individual participants who were referred without being religiously oriented and being deeply identified as gay, but very unhappy. It was an important place for them to come and learn what to do next….which, in fact, is always up to the individual.
Disgust is not an intellectual argument.
@ David Roberts – LOL
There is a word for women who like spending a great deal of time with gay men, but its not wife 😉
Have you seen the commercials for the iRenew bracelet?
Oh yes, it works. Just look at all their testimonials from people in the mall who immediately are stronger when they put it on.
I hope that I’m not insulting anyone here by assuming that we laugh at this stuff. Magnets in our belts, crystals over the doorway, Scientology, EST, the Landmark Forum, Tony Robbins, Marianne Williamson, the miracle cure peddlers list is endless.
I recently had a friend – an intelligent educated friend who has an unfortunate penchant for seminars – tell me that the only thing that stands between us and what we want is belief. If we just visualize it we can make it happen. If we just believe enough – with absolutely no doubt – then we can win the lottery. We can make it happen.
Journey into Manhood is just a variation on the theme.
Hey, I have no problem with people spending their weekends (and hard earned dough) on visualization seminars or miracle bracelets or herbal remedies or sitting with a bunch of naked guys in Motorcycle Position. I’m just bemused when intelligent thinking people take it seriously.
David,
You said my comments were creepy…
You said “cultish”…in reference to JIM.
My credibility is intact…you have jumped to very personal attributions.
And it is bullying…
No, David, not lucid – creepy. You seem to be personally invested in the ex-gay industry. That’s for your conscience to decide.
I wasn’t going to post about this, David, till your outrageous accusation that those of us who might find this ‘program’ (not its victims, the men too abused and shamed by their families to show their face) childish, pathetic, ludicrous, hurtful, etc, that we were somehow bullying. No. The men who pay $600 to grope each other in secret, they are the victims of a bullying culture suffered in school grown to adulthood.
David,
SIT is an appropriate way for people to deal with unwanted SSA, as well as therapy to help people accept their orientation – JIM is, as David said, creepy and cultish – they lie and offer false promises. They deserve every bit of criticism and disrespect they get because they’ve earned it.
Did you notice the comments from the wife of the guy who was featured as very positive about his success? She said they both look at men and noted that his type is different than hers. Nothing but your average heterosexual family.
Now for those who are truly heterosexual, imagine being in a room with a dozen pretty, mostly young women who all take their clothes off to hug and hold you — because obviously your attraction to women is due to your lack of love from your mom. Do you suspect you would find good things to say about the experience (while keeping it shrouded in the pretense of therapy so your wife doesn’t kill you)?
Now try all that while chanting about women, describing their attributes, and visualizing the idyllic female figure, and who knows what else. Now go take a shower, because yes it is that sleazy.
Sorry for all the posts, but here is a great piece from a writer who went undercover at a JIM camp – It is worth the time it takes to read!
My Journey Into Manhood
Blakeslee, your rather creepy defense of such practices as Jim and New Warriors has always been rather disturbing to me. At times you seem almost lucid and professional, and at others your sensibilities devolve into support of the bizarre. Above you seem personally wounded by comments about JiM, why is that? Do you attend these things?
I’m sorry if this is personal, I don’t know how else to put it. But please, spare me your justification of these weekend romps through cult male worship. You really should know better.
My Favorite quote from the Ex-Gay Watch Piece:
LOL
David,
That’s a such a nice way of putting these programs ruin lives.
The fact that they alone lie about gay people should in itself be a testament to their character. These groups are nothing but snake oil salesmen. Some will buy their schtick, some will absolutely claim it helps, until the so-called “positive” results reveal themselves for what they are.
I blame them because they are liars David – pure and simple.
Outcome research on everything would help: from general mental conditions, to parenting techniques, to effective organizing strategies for the home.
In the real world we understand that individuals vary in their response to any intervention. Some interventions, which seek to help, hurt. Some, which are accidental, help.
We don’t sue home organizers if our houses are still disorganized. We just assume that their strategy, or our response, was not useful.
You blame them without any scientific evidence.
A re-orientation program? JIM is much too broad to be considered as such.
Re-orientation is a specific intervention housed within dynamic psychotherapy.
Their focus on peer ridicule is very powerful…and is supported by the data. Helps participants move past stereotypical, preadolescence views of masculinity.
Given all the comments about bullying in previous posts, I think this is helpful to remember…and perhaps you mock them thoughtlessly.
Or, maybe it is deliberate.
In any case many are anxiously, obsessively introspective, perfectionistic, tender-hearted. Good men all.
Hmmm….
Cynicism and sarcasm as thoughtful discussion.
Just can’t frame things in a way that garners the respect of others.
“Unwanted SSA” not good enough.
JIM has a pretty respectful format at demystifying masculinity, and living authentically with SSA. They even do data collection on their participants and their response to the program.
I have known several men from the program over the years, single and married, who report it has been very helpful. They lead full, meaningful and happy lives.
I could talk about individual participants who were referred without being religiously oriented and being deeply identified as gay, but very unhappy. It was an important place for them to come and learn what to do next….which, in fact, is always up to the individual.
Disgust is not an intellectual argument.
@ David Roberts – LOL
There is a word for women who like spending a great deal of time with gay men, but its not wife 😉
If the guy is truly attracted to his wife then he is one of the spousosexual types who fall for one woman but is not attracted generally to women. If coloring pictures helps him in his marriage, I am not going to criticize him. However, I suspect he could get similar results from something more traditional. I worry for these men down the road when they realize that things haven’t completely changed.
I doubt anything too Cohenesque will be shown. And they didn’t do it. The weekend was a reunion of prior successes, not a group of first-timers in Journey into Manhood. And I guess the show originated out of a Salt Lake TV station that followed the one fellow.
Oh boy, the trauma, I guess if you could convince yourself of some slight, then you could fool yourself into thinking that is a reason. A bit before my father died (when I was 17) he told me to “do what I was man-enough to do.” I never thought I fully lived up to that until I accepted what I knew about myself to be true.
If the guy is truly attracted to his wife then he is one of the spousosexual types who fall for one woman but is not attracted generally to women. If coloring pictures helps him in his marriage, I am not going to criticize him. However, I suspect he could get similar results from something more traditional. I worry for these men down the road when they realize that things haven’t completely changed.
I doubt anything too Cohenesque will be shown. And they didn’t do it. The weekend was a reunion of prior successes, not a group of first-timers in Journey into Manhood. And I guess the show originated out of a Salt Lake TV station that followed the one fellow.
Oh boy, the trauma, I guess if you could convince yourself of some slight, then you could fool yourself into thinking that is a reason. A bit before my father died (when I was 17) he told me to “do what I was man-enough to do.” I never thought I fully lived up to that until I accepted what I knew about myself to be true.