Yesterday, KGET reported the death of Seth Walsh, a 13 year old boy, out as gay, who was bullied constantly. In this report, confirmation of the situation comes from his tormentors.
Tehachapi police investigators interviewed some of the young people who taunted Seth the day he hanged himself and determined despite the tragic outcome of their ridicule, their actions do not constitute a crime.
“Several of the kids that we talked to broke down into tears,” Jeff Kermode, Tehachapi Police Chief, said. “They had never expected an outcome such as this.”
He said the students told investigators they wish they had put a stop to the bullying and not participated in it.
Friends said Seth was picked on for years because he was gay.
School administrators said they have an anti-bullying program in place, but schoolmates said staff at Jacobsen Middle School in Tehachapi offered Seth no protection or guidance.
Broken record, broken system, broken kids. Once again, I call on those who cast suspicion on anti-bullying programs to just stop the culture war long enough to address the real needs of real children.
Be sure to watch the follow up video…it follows immediately after the news report on Seth Walsh.
//
Oooops… I’m way off subject.
David,
1) You will never know if they achieve the outcomes you hope for unless you try
2) Sometimes the changes do in fact have the desired outcomes
3) Our society has a long history of discrimination – against sexes, against people who look and act differently – but thank God our history is replete with righting these wrongs
Sometimes these changes in social policy don’t have the outcomes desired, but at least, with this country, when it comes to making sure its citizens are treated equally under the law – its nice to know that bias and bigotry don’t win at the end of the day
David,
It’s a funny thing. I’ve been paying attention to how marriage has been discussed socially, and it genuinely seems to have had an impact on some couples. They do see “married” as being different from cohabitation or other ceremonies. It feels different and so they respond differently.
I’m not analyzing your motives. I’m just pointing out that what you stated as your motives don’t align with what you are desiring.
Absolutely true. But it appears to date that those countries and states that allow same-sex couples to commit to each other have not regretted that decision.
Amusingly, the National Organization for Marriage turned in an amicus brief in the Perry v. Schwarzenegger appeal in which they stated that same-sex marriage had the “negative consequence” of being accepted by the public.
I’m ready to get back to the discussion at hand
Evidently, not all the bullies of teenagers are immature (physically, that is).
http://lacrossetribune.com/news/local/article_363d48b0-cb6e-11df-a278-001cc4c002e0.html
It does not logically hold that the negative consequences of lessening the tie between sex and marriage for heterosexuals should dictate that ties between sex and marriage for homosexuals should be discouraged.
Your logic flaw is that you see the entire debate from the perspective of “compliance to 1950’s morality code” and anything that differs from the religious/cultural sexual ethics of the Eisenhower administration is part of the “sexual revolution.” The further from heterosexual marriage, the more revolutionary.
However, if you look at the debate from the perspective of sexual responsibility, then same-sex non-committed activity is FAR FAR closer to “sexual revolution” than is same-sex marriage. If you oppose sexual irresponsibility because of the negative consequences of the sexual revolution, then it holds as self-evident that you would favor those measures that encourage fidelity and discourage promiscuity. And same-sex marriage does – for gay people – encourage fidelity and discourage promiscuity.
Perhaps you are mistaken in your understanding of what motivates your opposition to marriage rights for gay people.
Jayhuck,
Changes in social policy, from the best of intentions, do not necessarily have the outcomes hoped for.
No loose correlation, just stating the obvious.
Do we really want to go further down this road on this thread?
Lets go back in time to here:
David,
Hyperbole for effect. My point is that there have ALWAYS been culture wars in every culture at every time. There has ALWAYS been a war between cultural conservatism (compliance to the social/sexual/established ethic) and individualism in every culture, time or place.
But that does not detract from the fact that the current incarnation of the Culture War is obsessed over my sexual orientation. Why can’t we fight over important things like Papal Indulgences or church governance or the control of the Holy Land (oh… I guess we still do).
isn’t = aren’t
Timothy,
This is my hope. There were many theories when marriage was reassessed in the 70’s and 80’s that suggested it would be better for couples, women and children…that, generally, has not turned out to be true.
Your analysis of other’s motives is tiresome.
David,
What in the world does this mean and what, if anything, does it have to do with same-sex marriage? Your loose correlations between issues isn’t getting any easier to listen to either.
Timothy,
This is way too simplistic an description of me; but I will take your word on your description of you.
Regarding the Crusades as the onset of the Culture War…I can not track that logic.
Jayhuck,
Throughout my participation here and at Narth I have used the negative consequences of the sexual revolution for heterosexuals as the groundwork for my concern broadening the definition of marriage to include same sex partners.
I don’t think there are separate Culture Wars as you describe it. It is a long cultural upheaval of which Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and Pat Buchannan are champions on the Right. Harry Hay, Bernie Sanders, Erica Jong and Albert Kinsey are champions on the Left.
It is a culture in conflict over the efficacy of traditional values (tried and true) vs the importance of personal freedom (human right).
I believe that a culture in which dead children are an acceptable collateral damage in a Culture War could only happen when people began putting their morality on a shelf.
Of course, we mean something entirely different by “morality”. You mean the Levitical Law, and I mean the Golden Rule.
David,
We could probably trace the current culture war back to the crusades if we really tried. There has always been someone railing against the behavior of someone else and lamenting that things are just not like they used to be.
However, what we mean by “culture war” today did not really gain any prominence before the effort to use collective conservative faith communities as a voting block and to establish a partisan presence. Jerry Falwell is probably best identified as the father of the Culture War.
But all of that is irrelevant to this issue. What is important now is that we get behind those who are trying to combat bullying and give them our support, spread the word about the problem, and be an advocate for the kids.
One way that you can support, if you are so inclined, is to utilize the documentary Out in the Silence, a true story of Kathy Springer and her son CJ, who was being brutally abused at school in rural Pennsylvania.
Jayhuck,
What I mean is that the culture wars existed first as concern about what heterosexuals were doing regarding their sexual behavior.
Does that not seem an obvious precursor?
David,
There have been different “culture wars” at different times. The most recent one definitely has been brought into existence by several conservative Christians.
Again From Wikipedia, and Pat Buchanan:
Good grief. He means turning sex into a recreational sport with no (supposed) consequences, emotionally or otherwise, could only happen when people began putting their morality on a shelf. That had implications for both straight people and gays. Or to put it into churchy terms, fornication and adultery became a national past time and we are reaping what we have sown.
Well, it may take one to start it (whoever that one may be), but it definitely takes two to keep it going. So who wants to beat their swords into ploughshares first?
Sorry – I meant there have been DIFFERENT culture wars at different times during our existence as a country
I’d like to add that this “minor, losing political candidate” as you call him had a message that was taken to heart and supported and carried on by powerful conservative Christian groups
When it came to our current “culture war” it wasn’t about some conservative Christians saying, let’s peacefully sit down with those we disagree, find common ground and figure out how we can live together – it was about just what Pat Buchanan said above:
It was about vilifying the other side and using fear to rally the troops –
I’m not saying some conservative Christians wouldn’t have done this, or that some now are not sad that its still going on – but you can’t lament the fact without owning up some to your (the religious rights) role in the conflict
To treat this in any way as separate from a Mental Health issue is going to be naive and continue to place children at risks….
The bully becomes internalized…planted, if you will in fertile ground. Getting rid of the external bully is a start. Safe places are a start…
Mental health treatment is a must.
LD,
By rave I meant to say that it is being emphasized in the media right now. I didn’t mean to make a remark that sounded like I was talking about fashion or fads. There are many other who are committing suicide every day that go unreported. Some of these people are adults who suffered bullying as children, some suffer other events.
Has the research of effectiveness been shared? I remember reading a 20% reduction on the blog.
Please repost here again.
thanks for your patience.
DARE is educational, but not very effective.
How about a public presentation on campus about suicide risks and depression…making an overt path for the teen to seek help; might not decrease bullying, but it might increase survivability.
Oooops… I’m way off subject.
David,
It’s a funny thing. I’ve been paying attention to how marriage has been discussed socially, and it genuinely seems to have had an impact on some couples. They do see “married” as being different from cohabitation or other ceremonies. It feels different and so they respond differently.
I’m not analyzing your motives. I’m just pointing out that what you stated as your motives don’t align with what you are desiring.
Absolutely true. But it appears to date that those countries and states that allow same-sex couples to commit to each other have not regretted that decision.
Amusingly, the National Organization for Marriage turned in an amicus brief in the Perry v. Schwarzenegger appeal in which they stated that same-sex marriage had the “negative consequence” of being accepted by the public.
I’m ready to get back to the discussion at hand
David,
1) You will never know if they achieve the outcomes you hope for unless you try
2) Sometimes the changes do in fact have the desired outcomes
3) Our society has a long history of discrimination – against sexes, against people who look and act differently – but thank God our history is replete with righting these wrongs
Sometimes these changes in social policy don’t have the outcomes desired, but at least, with this country, when it comes to making sure its citizens are treated equally under the law – its nice to know that bias and bigotry don’t win at the end of the day
Evidently, not all the bullies of teenagers are immature (physically, that is).
http://lacrossetribune.com/news/local/article_363d48b0-cb6e-11df-a278-001cc4c002e0.html
Jayhuck,
Changes in social policy, from the best of intentions, do not necessarily have the outcomes hoped for.
No loose correlation, just stating the obvious.
Do we really want to go further down this road on this thread?
Lets go back in time to here:
isn’t = aren’t
David,
What in the world does this mean and what, if anything, does it have to do with same-sex marriage? Your loose correlations between issues isn’t getting any easier to listen to either.
Timothy,
This is my hope. There were many theories when marriage was reassessed in the 70’s and 80’s that suggested it would be better for couples, women and children…that, generally, has not turned out to be true.
Your analysis of other’s motives is tiresome.
It does not logically hold that the negative consequences of lessening the tie between sex and marriage for heterosexuals should dictate that ties between sex and marriage for homosexuals should be discouraged.
Your logic flaw is that you see the entire debate from the perspective of “compliance to 1950’s morality code” and anything that differs from the religious/cultural sexual ethics of the Eisenhower administration is part of the “sexual revolution.” The further from heterosexual marriage, the more revolutionary.
However, if you look at the debate from the perspective of sexual responsibility, then same-sex non-committed activity is FAR FAR closer to “sexual revolution” than is same-sex marriage. If you oppose sexual irresponsibility because of the negative consequences of the sexual revolution, then it holds as self-evident that you would favor those measures that encourage fidelity and discourage promiscuity. And same-sex marriage does – for gay people – encourage fidelity and discourage promiscuity.
Perhaps you are mistaken in your understanding of what motivates your opposition to marriage rights for gay people.
David,
I don’t know how true this is. I think you have a correlation but not necessarily a causation. There were gay groups working towards equality before the sexual revolution came about, and I think the movement gained momentum as a result of the decision by the APA in the 1970’s (another event I hope isn’t linked to the sexual revolution of the 60s) but neither event created the gay rights movement.
David,
Hyperbole for effect. My point is that there have ALWAYS been culture wars in every culture at every time. There has ALWAYS been a war between cultural conservatism (compliance to the social/sexual/established ethic) and individualism in every culture, time or place.
But that does not detract from the fact that the current incarnation of the Culture War is obsessed over my sexual orientation. Why can’t we fight over important things like Papal Indulgences or church governance or the control of the Holy Land (oh… I guess we still do).
Jayhuck,
What I mean is that the culture wars existed first as concern about what heterosexuals were doing regarding their sexual behavior.
Does that not seem an obvious precursor?
Timothy,
This is way too simplistic an description of me; but I will take your word on your description of you.
Regarding the Crusades as the onset of the Culture War…I can not track that logic.
Jayhuck,
Throughout my participation here and at Narth I have used the negative consequences of the sexual revolution for heterosexuals as the groundwork for my concern broadening the definition of marriage to include same sex partners.
I don’t think there are separate Culture Wars as you describe it. It is a long cultural upheaval of which Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and Pat Buchannan are champions on the Right. Harry Hay, Bernie Sanders, Erica Jong and Albert Kinsey are champions on the Left.
It is a culture in conflict over the efficacy of traditional values (tried and true) vs the importance of personal freedom (human right).
I believe that a culture in which dead children are an acceptable collateral damage in a Culture War could only happen when people began putting their morality on a shelf.
Of course, we mean something entirely different by “morality”. You mean the Levitical Law, and I mean the Golden Rule.
David,
We could probably trace the current culture war back to the crusades if we really tried. There has always been someone railing against the behavior of someone else and lamenting that things are just not like they used to be.
However, what we mean by “culture war” today did not really gain any prominence before the effort to use collective conservative faith communities as a voting block and to establish a partisan presence. Jerry Falwell is probably best identified as the father of the Culture War.
But all of that is irrelevant to this issue. What is important now is that we get behind those who are trying to combat bullying and give them our support, spread the word about the problem, and be an advocate for the kids.
One way that you can support, if you are so inclined, is to utilize the documentary Out in the Silence, a true story of Kathy Springer and her son CJ, who was being brutally abused at school in rural Pennsylvania.
Good grief. He means turning sex into a recreational sport with no (supposed) consequences, emotionally or otherwise, could only happen when people began putting their morality on a shelf. That had implications for both straight people and gays. Or to put it into churchy terms, fornication and adultery became a national past time and we are reaping what we have sown.
Well, it may take one to start it (whoever that one may be), but it definitely takes two to keep it going. So who wants to beat their swords into ploughshares first?
David,
What do you mean by this?
Sorry – I meant there have been DIFFERENT culture wars at different times during our existence as a country
I’d like to add that this “minor, losing political candidate” as you call him had a message that was taken to heart and supported and carried on by powerful conservative Christian groups
David,
You missed my point – there have DIFFERENT culture wars at different times during out existence as a country – the current one, the one I’m talking about, was most given a huge boost by powerful conservative Christians, their organizations and supporters
All I’m saying is that if you’re a conservative Christian lamenting the Culture War, own up to your part in starting it – It has nothing to do with conservative Christians being stick in the muds
David,
I don’t know how true this is. I think you have a correlation but not necessarily a causation. There were gay groups working towards equality before the sexual revolution came about, and I think the movement gained momentum as a result of the decision by the APA in the 1970’s (another event I hope isn’t linked to the sexual revolution of the 60s) but neither event created the gay rights movement.
From my perspective the culture war cannot start in 1990…from a minor, losing political candidate. Way too late.
Please consider my points above…rightly or wrongly, deconstructing social mores around sexuality preceded the current fight around homosexual rights. Psychology and sociology played a major role in this deconstruction. Social programs dealing with the consequences cannot keep up with the problems deconstructionists have created.
Conservatives, will always look like stick-in-the-mud, kill joys (at best).
Sex, drug and rock and roll (the devil’s music)!
That dam Elvis Presley!
Pornography!
Delinking sexual behavior from love and commitment for heterosexuals was a viable concern voiced by religious conservatives nearly 50 years ago; the arguments we are currently having, I believe, are the tail ends of a lost argument.
Jayhuck,
Thanks for responding…
Amazing we can talk as thoroughly as we do when the topic is two big social taboos: Religion and Politics.
When it came to our current “culture war” it wasn’t about some conservative Christians saying, let’s peacefully sit down with those we disagree, find common ground and figure out how we can live together – it was about just what Pat Buchanan said above:
It was about vilifying the other side and using fear to rally the troops –
I’m not saying some conservative Christians wouldn’t have done this, or that some now are not sad that its still going on – but you can’t lament the fact without owning up some to your (the religious rights) role in the conflict
There is no one culture war David and I’d like to talk about the one we are currently embroiled in
David,
There have been different “culture wars” at different times. The most recent one definitely has been brought into existence by several conservative Christians.
Again From Wikipedia, and Pat Buchanan:
Jayhuck,
You are old enough, I think to track the culture war prior to Ronald Reagan or even Richard Nixon.
Don’t you have any guesses about the bohemian movement of the 50’s; the application of Rousseau to modern thought, deconstructionism, moral equivalency, the odd hostility of psychology toward traditional religion (Freud, Skinner, Jung and Rogers).
The culture war, I believe, is significantly older than your reference in Wikipedia implies….
Without getting too far off track, I would be interested in your views about this.
David,
I absolutely agree – although in some cases it may be a question of which came first, the bullying or the depression.
David,
I’ll agree that at this point finger-pointing is pretty pointless. Nevertheless, it irritates me to no end to hear some conservative religious people lamenting the Culture War when, at the very least, they were very important in getting it started.
Wiki quote:
Perhaps it will end when conservative religious groups and those who don’t agree with them realize that both sides deserve respect and EQUAL rights.
To treat this in any way as separate from a Mental Health issue is going to be naive and continue to place children at risks….
The bully becomes internalized…planted, if you will in fertile ground. Getting rid of the external bully is a start. Safe places are a start…
Mental health treatment is a must.
Getting back to facts and away from baiting each other:
from http://www.healthyplace.com/depression/children/suicide-and-children/menu-id-68/
David,
What do you mean by this?
David,
You missed my point – there have DIFFERENT culture wars at different times during out existence as a country – the current one, the one I’m talking about, was most given a huge boost by powerful conservative Christians, their organizations and supporters
All I’m saying is that if you’re a conservative Christian lamenting the Culture War, own up to your part in starting it – It has nothing to do with conservative Christians being stick in the muds
From my perspective the culture war cannot start in 1990…from a minor, losing political candidate. Way too late.
Please consider my points above…rightly or wrongly, deconstructing social mores around sexuality preceded the current fight around homosexual rights. Psychology and sociology played a major role in this deconstruction. Social programs dealing with the consequences cannot keep up with the problems deconstructionists have created.
Conservatives, will always look like stick-in-the-mud, kill joys (at best).
Sex, drug and rock and roll (the devil’s music)!
That dam Elvis Presley!
Pornography!
Delinking sexual behavior from love and commitment for heterosexuals was a viable concern voiced by religious conservatives nearly 50 years ago; the arguments we are currently having, I believe, are the tail ends of a lost argument.
Jayhuck,
Thanks for responding…
Amazing we can talk as thoroughly as we do when the topic is two big social taboos: Religion and Politics.
I wish we could just stay away from this kind of speculation. Hard to say who started it. I’d rather look forward to who is going to end it.
As to my other comment, there are things we can do to help alleviate all forms of suffering. To think we can eliminate these problems altogether is a panacea. Yes, we should do all we can. I was merely reminding us that tragedies come in many forms.
There is no one culture war David and I’d like to talk about the one we are currently embroiled in
Tragic indeed – Gay people did not start the culture war! Religion and religious people did.
Debbie,
I don’t understand the point of your last post!
You said:
At least where the depression/suicide is the result of torment/bullying, there do seem to be things we can do – and we should be doing them
Jayhuck,
You are old enough, I think to track the culture war prior to Ronald Reagan or even Richard Nixon.
Don’t you have any guesses about the bohemian movement of the 50’s; the application of Rousseau to modern thought, deconstructionism, moral equivalency, the odd hostility of psychology toward traditional religion (Freud, Skinner, Jung and Rogers).
The culture war, I believe, is significantly older than your reference in Wikipedia implies….
Without getting too far off track, I would be interested in your views about this.
David,
I absolutely agree – although in some cases it may be a question of which came first, the bullying or the depression.
David,
I’ll agree that at this point finger-pointing is pretty pointless. Nevertheless, it irritates me to no end to hear some conservative religious people lamenting the Culture War when, at the very least, they were very important in getting it started.
Wiki quote:
Perhaps it will end when conservative religious groups and those who don’t agree with them realize that both sides deserve respect and EQUAL rights.
Getting back to facts and away from baiting each other:
from http://www.healthyplace.com/depression/children/suicide-and-children/menu-id-68/
I wish we could just stay away from this kind of speculation. Hard to say who started it. I’d rather look forward to who is going to end it.
As to my other comment, there are things we can do to help alleviate all forms of suffering. To think we can eliminate these problems altogether is a panacea. Yes, we should do all we can. I was merely reminding us that tragedies come in many forms.
Tragic indeed – Gay people did not start the culture war! Religion and religious people did.
Debbie,
I don’t understand the point of your last post!
You said:
At least where the depression/suicide is the result of torment/bullying, there do seem to be things we can do – and we should be doing them
Childhood sexual abuse, mental health issues that may be unrelated to gender identity, loss of a parent or friend — there are a host of reasons why kids become depressed and either contemplate or carry out suicide. Girls do have a high rate of suicidal contemplation, but boys are more successful because they generally employ more lethal means. And yes, some of these kids will not decide to end it all until they are in adulthood.
GLBT youth depression/suicide is one of several gut-wrenching problems we seem to be at a loss to solve. Consider the tragedy of childhood hunger and starvation around the world. Or how many kids are lured into strapping explosives on themselves to become jihadist martyrs. Or how many men, women and children are persecuted and killed for their faith in oppressive nations. There is much ugliness that we easily turn a blind eye to in our own relative comfort.
Is it even possible to moderate human nature to eliminate bullying and oppression? If Jesus said the poor would always be with us, does that also mean those who oppress the downtrodden or take advantage of the weak will also be here, too? Regardless of the odds, we are not to “grow weary in well-doing.”
The Church (elements of it) is losing it by condemning rather than giving the cup of cold water in Jesus’ name or being that “friend that sticks closer than a brother.” Tragedy ought to bring us all together. “Culture war” are two of the ugliest words strung together that I know of. “Come to me” are three of the most beautiful. But those words are drowned out by the others. Tragic.
Childhood sexual abuse, mental health issues that may be unrelated to gender identity, loss of a parent or friend — there are a host of reasons why kids become depressed and either contemplate or carry out suicide. Girls do have a high rate of suicidal contemplation, but boys are more successful because they generally employ more lethal means. And yes, some of these kids will not decide to end it all until they are in adulthood.
GLBT youth depression/suicide is one of several gut-wrenching problems we seem to be at a loss to solve. Consider the tragedy of childhood hunger and starvation around the world. Or how many kids are lured into strapping explosives on themselves to become jihadist martyrs. Or how many men, women and children are persecuted and killed for their faith in oppressive nations. There is much ugliness that we easily turn a blind eye to in our own relative comfort.
Is it even possible to moderate human nature to eliminate bullying and oppression? If Jesus said the poor would always be with us, does that also mean those who oppress the downtrodden or take advantage of the weak will also be here, too? Regardless of the odds, we are not to “grow weary in well-doing.”
The Church (elements of it) is losing it by condemning rather than giving the cup of cold water in Jesus’ name or being that “friend that sticks closer than a brother.” Tragedy ought to bring us all together. “Culture war” are two of the ugliest words strung together that I know of. “Come to me” are three of the most beautiful. But those words are drowned out by the others. Tragic.
LD,
By rave I meant to say that it is being emphasized in the media right now. I didn’t mean to make a remark that sounded like I was talking about fashion or fads. There are many other who are committing suicide every day that go unreported. Some of these people are adults who suffered bullying as children, some suffer other events.
@ Debbie Thurman:
Hey Debs! So great to hear from you on the occasion of yet another dead gay teen. How’s Lisa Miller? Spoken to her lately?
Debbie preached:
“This is clearly an area where the Church and the Christian community could make a real difference.”
Debs, they have made a real difference. This week’s crop of deaths is evidence of that.
@ Throckmorton:
Warren, you continue to operate under a fundamental misunderstanding. The deaths of Asher Brown, Seth Walsh, and Billy Lucas are not failures to the culture warriors, they are sub-optimal successes. As the engineers at Microsoft used to joke when confronted with a complaint about Windows: “It’s a feature, not a flaw.”
There is a net reduction of homosexuality in the world and that is a good thing in their view. The optimal outcome would have been for these 3 to have accepted Christ and become straight or chaste, but failing that, this is the best outcome. In addition to the immediate reduction in extant sin, three long-term agents of homosexual promotion have been eliminated from the battlefield and so their deaths have prevented decades of potential corruption of Christians. And their deaths can deter other youth who might be tempted to enter into the lifestyle. And lest you object that I am distorting things, I would invite you to visit Linda Harvey’s site at Mission America or Peter LaBarbera’s site. There is nothing there that is inconsistent with what I am saying.
Debbie,
I feel the need to repeat myself for your sake Debbie – the QUANTITY of bullying does not speak to the QUALITY of bullying being done. That other groups suffer from bullying is obvious – that some groups suffer worse types of bullying than others, should be clear as well, although I would never launch into a discussion again about who suffers more because that is pointless. May I remind you of just how many gay kids, or kids who were thought to be gay have been tortured and/or killed themselves in the last year – most of the stories are on this blog. AND – many kids are suffering from gay harassment and bullying who are NOT gay, so they won’t necessarily show up in figures re: the bullying of gay kids
That ADL article gave you several statistics that should have enlightened you as to what types of things need to go into bullying programs to make them successful – I hope you caught that.
The Safe Schools Improvement Act sponsored by all mainstream Educational organizations, but being opposed by ultra-conservative groups like FOTF, covers bullying of all the people you listed above, including religious students, as well as GLBT students
I guess if I had committed suicide after being beaten up a couple of times back in ’67 it wouldn’t have made the news. And frankly, yeah, it would not have. Suicide was a rather private thing taken hard by families in that time (and yes, it still is). But I knew of one suicide (not related to bullying) in my high school but that never saw the light of day at all, not even a public funeral (something their Catholic church might have not allowed).
But I do not see how facing the problem head on, now, makes it a ‘rave’ for whatever reason, gay, fat, geek, out-of-fashion, just plain different or not ‘cool.’
_________________________________
About Olweus…. I don’t doubt after some reading on it that it is one of the best programs to stop bullying that exists now. The difference between the results in Norway and the American results are easily explained. Norway is a more homogenous populations. But let’s face it, America is a land of immigrants, a land of many tribes, ethnically, racially, religiously, and yes, sexuality.
…
At any one time in America we have several serial killers on the loose, serial rapists on the loose, kids who are killed by parents or suicide and it does not get reported because it my not be sensational enough.
There are over 300 million people in this country. The rave right now is to report gay children being bullied who have committed suicide. Please don’t tell me for one minute that some girl didn’t commit suicide because she was being ostracised at school and intimidated by other students. Somewhere in this country is a girl who is considering suicide tonight for those very reasons.
It was not reported.
There weas the report a couple months ago of the father who killed his teeange daughters becuase 1) Of his religion 2) Because they were girls. Boys who are muslim and act in the same way are not threatened in America (usually).
Yes.
@ Debbie Thurman:
Hey Debs! So great to hear from you on the occasion of yet another dead gay teen. How’s Lisa Miller? Spoken to her lately?
Debbie preached:
“This is clearly an area where the Church and the Christian community could make a real difference.”
Debs, they have made a real difference. This week’s crop of deaths is evidence of that.
@ Throckmorton:
Warren, you continue to operate under a fundamental misunderstanding. The deaths of Asher Brown, Seth Walsh, and Billy Lucas are not failures to the culture warriors, they are sub-optimal successes. As the engineers at Microsoft used to joke when confronted with a complaint about Windows: “It’s a feature, not a flaw.”
There is a net reduction of homosexuality in the world and that is a good thing in their view. The optimal outcome would have been for these 3 to have accepted Christ and become straight or chaste, but failing that, this is the best outcome. In addition to the immediate reduction in extant sin, three long-term agents of homosexual promotion have been eliminated from the battlefield and so their deaths have prevented decades of potential corruption of Christians. And their deaths can deter other youth who might be tempted to enter into the lifestyle. And lest you object that I am distorting things, I would invite you to visit Linda Harvey’s site at Mission America or Peter LaBarbera’s site. There is nothing there that is inconsistent with what I am saying.
While I don’t recall any children dying this week because they were victims of religion-base bullying or female instigated rumors, that is not really important.
What is important is that we get behind those who are trying to combat bullying and give them our support, spread the word about the problem, and be an advocate for the kids.
Yes, I remember the ADL report, Jayhuck. I didn’t find it terribly convincing. It also says this in its fact sheet:
St. John Chyrsostom himself suborned suicide to homosexuals in this passage that I read at 13 in my Catholic high schools library:
SO I SAY TO YOU THAT THESE (HOMOSEXUALS) ARE EVEN WORSE THAN MURDERERS, AND THAT IT WOULD BE BETTER TO DIE THAN TO LIVE IN SUCH DISHONOR. A murderer only separates the soul from the body, whereas these destroy the soul inside the body….. There is nothing, absolutely nothing more mad or damaging than this perversity.” (St. John Chrysostom, In Epistulam ad Romanos IV, in J. McNeill, op. cit., pp. 89-90)
Christians who are quick to criticize GLSEN, should also be honest enough to recognize the wealth of the pornography of hatred that is part of their heritage and to which their gay kids are daily exposed.
Jayhuck,
The Trevor Project is a very reputable and life-saving organization. They do very good work.
Debbie writes:
This is clearly an area where the Church and the Christian community could make a real difference.
I think the Christian community are making a difference. They’re facilitating suicide through obstructionism. They’re doing it by refusing to allow anti-gay bullying to be mentioned specifically even though, according to Human Rights Watch (See “Hatred In the Hallways”) anti-gay insults are among the most dreaded and most frequently heard by students. According to this report, the average high school student heard the word “faggot” 200 times in one week. This was about nine years ago.
So Debbie, if you were called “cunt” 200 times a week at your work place, would you trust your manager if he or she refused to address the insult specifically?
Death of California youth puts focus on rise in antigay bullying
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2010/0929/Death-of-California-youth-puts-focus-on-rise-in-antigay-bullying?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4ca3a624a67f29a1%2C0
Debbie,
I feel the need to repeat myself for your sake Debbie – the QUANTITY of bullying does not speak to the QUALITY of bullying being done. That other groups suffer from bullying is obvious – that some groups suffer worse types of bullying than others, should be clear as well, although I would never launch into a discussion again about who suffers more because that is pointless. May I remind you of just how many gay kids, or kids who were thought to be gay have been tortured and/or killed themselves in the last year – most of the stories are on this blog. AND – many kids are suffering from gay harassment and bullying who are NOT gay, so they won’t necessarily show up in figures re: the bullying of gay kids
That ADL article gave you several statistics that should have enlightened you as to what types of things need to go into bullying programs to make them successful – I hope you caught that.
The Safe Schools Improvement Act sponsored by all mainstream Educational organizations, but being opposed by ultra-conservative groups like FOTF, covers bullying of all the people you listed above, including religious students, as well as GLBT students
Tim,
I’m all for this Tim – I know you’ve posted links on other threads to programs to help kids. I would like to get involved – would you mind sharing some of the links to those groups again for me? You can post them here or just shoot me an email – TY for all you do
Debbie,
The ADL article
I guess if I had committed suicide after being beaten up a couple of times back in ’67 it wouldn’t have made the news. And frankly, yeah, it would not have. Suicide was a rather private thing taken hard by families in that time (and yes, it still is). But I knew of one suicide (not related to bullying) in my high school but that never saw the light of day at all, not even a public funeral (something their Catholic church might have not allowed).
But I do not see how facing the problem head on, now, makes it a ‘rave’ for whatever reason, gay, fat, geek, out-of-fashion, just plain different or not ‘cool.’
_________________________________
About Olweus…. I don’t doubt after some reading on it that it is one of the best programs to stop bullying that exists now. The difference between the results in Norway and the American results are easily explained. Norway is a more homogenous populations. But let’s face it, America is a land of immigrants, a land of many tribes, ethnically, racially, religiously, and yes, sexuality.
…
In the end it comes down to the administrators and teachers at any one school. You can employ the best program and training, but if there is no follow-through the bullying will continue.
At any one time in America we have several serial killers on the loose, serial rapists on the loose, kids who are killed by parents or suicide and it does not get reported because it my not be sensational enough.
There are over 300 million people in this country. The rave right now is to report gay children being bullied who have committed suicide. Please don’t tell me for one minute that some girl didn’t commit suicide because she was being ostracised at school and intimidated by other students. Somewhere in this country is a girl who is considering suicide tonight for those very reasons.
I checked the very long “Bullied Student takes His Life” thread. I had remembered that Olweus had been mentioned there. It was Lynn David who first brought it up, I think, on Sept. 18. You then responded, Warren, but not with anything solid in the way of statistics. The link you give above does look impressive, but it appears to be based on Norwegian studies. Interestingly, the study Lynn David linked to said this:
Elsewhere in that study, I saw an average figure of a 22 percent reduction in bullying using the Olweus model. That study cited as potential barriers to implementation personnel turnover and difficulty in getting parents involved in meetings. It also attested to higher success in schools where “high fidelity” to the program occurred. It was tested in inner city schools, it should be pointed out. Other variables such as the relocation of a housing project, also impacted bullying in one school that quite on the program but had far fewer bullying incidents once a lot of the problem kids moved away.
Lynn David had mentioned not being able to find a correlation in the Olweus model between focusing on gay kids as a target and reduced bullying. Yo say above, Warren, that there does appear to be one.
I’m still not sure we have a preponderance of evidence yet. Not enough to back up claims of “highly successful” programs. But it’s a start.
It was not reported.
There weas the report a couple months ago of the father who killed his teeange daughters becuase 1) Of his religion 2) Because they were girls. Boys who are muslim and act in the same way are not threatened in America (usually).
The Olweus program reports 30-70% reduction in reports of bullying. This the program which I like the best and has a good research record.
Over the years I have referred schools to it and used it to form a basis for my work in this area. The training I just completed as a part of the school district plan locally did include some sensitivity to GLB students and namecalling. The problem was named, affirmed as serious with resolve to address it along with any other hot issues. This was a proactive approach with no effort from the trainer to change anyone’s beliefs.
Yes.
David, I posted this morning about two reports that showed a range of between 14 and 20 percent reduction in bullying through programs. That’s not exactly lighting it up. Would love to know if there is better news out there.
Perhaps the best approach is to let those who need more evidence before they sign on to go search for it.
But in the meantime the rest of us can get behind those who are trying to combat bullying and give them our support, spread the word about the problem, and be an advocate for the kids.
And we can expose and oppose those who stand in the way and empower the bullies.
Has the research of effectiveness been shared? I remember reading a 20% reduction on the blog.
Please repost here again.
thanks for your patience.
DARE is educational, but not very effective.
How about a public presentation on campus about suicide risks and depression…making an overt path for the teen to seek help; might not decrease bullying, but it might increase survivability.
While I don’t recall any children dying this week because they were victims of religion-base bullying or female instigated rumors, that is not really important.
What is important is that we get behind those who are trying to combat bullying and give them our support, spread the word about the problem, and be an advocate for the kids.
Could you point that out to me again? Statistics?
I’m not sure that we really are qualified to (or need to) investigate the details and effectiveness of each individuals anti-bullying program. It’s a bit like reinventing the wheel.
There are a number of organizations which exist solely to reduce violence and bullying on campus. And they seems to universally agree on what methods are effective.
There will always be some website or person with an opinion that disagrees. But at present, I’m going to go with those programs that are recommended by those who make it their life’s mission to protect children.
I think the best thing we can do is just give them our support, spread the word about the problem, and be an advocate for the kids.
Warren
The environment – the culture they live in – is key.
Yes, I remember the ADL report, Jayhuck. I didn’t find it terribly convincing. It also says this in its fact sheet:
Debbie,
yep – You’ve seen actual evidence of what makes up successful programs!
St. John Chyrsostom himself suborned suicide to homosexuals in this passage that I read at 13 in my Catholic high schools library:
SO I SAY TO YOU THAT THESE (HOMOSEXUALS) ARE EVEN WORSE THAN MURDERERS, AND THAT IT WOULD BE BETTER TO DIE THAN TO LIVE IN SUCH DISHONOR. A murderer only separates the soul from the body, whereas these destroy the soul inside the body….. There is nothing, absolutely nothing more mad or damaging than this perversity.” (St. John Chrysostom, In Epistulam ad Romanos IV, in J. McNeill, op. cit., pp. 89-90)
Christians who are quick to criticize GLSEN, should also be honest enough to recognize the wealth of the pornography of hatred that is part of their heritage and to which their gay kids are daily exposed.
Jayhuck,
The Trevor Project is a very reputable and life-saving organization. They do very good work.
Debbie writes:
This is clearly an area where the Church and the Christian community could make a real difference.
I think the Christian community are making a difference. They’re facilitating suicide through obstructionism. They’re doing it by refusing to allow anti-gay bullying to be mentioned specifically even though, according to Human Rights Watch (See “Hatred In the Hallways”) anti-gay insults are among the most dreaded and most frequently heard by students. According to this report, the average high school student heard the word “faggot” 200 times in one week. This was about nine years ago.
So Debbie, if you were called “cunt” 200 times a week at your work place, would you trust your manager if he or she refused to address the insult specifically?
Death of California youth puts focus on rise in antigay bullying
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2010/0929/Death-of-California-youth-puts-focus-on-rise-in-antigay-bullying?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4ca3a624a67f29a1%2C0
Tim,
I’m all for this Tim – I know you’ve posted links on other threads to programs to help kids. I would like to get involved – would you mind sharing some of the links to those groups again for me? You can post them here or just shoot me an email – TY for all you do
Debbie,
The ADL article
I agree. Let’s see how they do.
We don’t need pious platitudes or more finger-pointing, Stephen. Nice. Just when it seemed we might have been moving forward.
In the end it comes down to the administrators and teachers at any one school. You can employ the best program and training, but if there is no follow-through the bullying will continue.
In Debbie’s reply one sees the problem crystalized. And why it will never be meaningfully addressed.
As Caesar says of Brittanicus in Shaw’s play: He is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.
I’ve seen that strong opinion, but have I seen actual evidence? I ferreted out some information on why programs are alleged not to work. I am not saying they don’t or can’t work. I just want to see some evidence that they do. I want to see a genuine cook in the kitchen instead of a lot of people running around with their hair on fire.
I have an earlier comment awaiting moderation, FYI.
I checked the very long “Bullied Student takes His Life” thread. I had remembered that Olweus had been mentioned there. It was Lynn David who first brought it up, I think, on Sept. 18. You then responded, Warren, but not with anything solid in the way of statistics. The link you give above does look impressive, but it appears to be based on Norwegian studies. Interestingly, the study Lynn David linked to said this:
Elsewhere in that study, I saw an average figure of a 22 percent reduction in bullying using the Olweus model. That study cited as potential barriers to implementation personnel turnover and difficulty in getting parents involved in meetings. It also attested to higher success in schools where “high fidelity” to the program occurred. It was tested in inner city schools, it should be pointed out. Other variables such as the relocation of a housing project, also impacted bullying in one school that quite on the program but had far fewer bullying incidents once a lot of the problem kids moved away.
Lynn David had mentioned not being able to find a correlation in the Olweus model between focusing on gay kids as a target and reduced bullying. Yo say above, Warren, that there does appear to be one.
I’m still not sure we have a preponderance of evidence yet. Not enough to back up claims of “highly successful” programs. But it’s a start.
Debbie,
I still haven’t had time to look at the actual programs but we DO know what needs to be included in those programs – you’ve already seen that evidence.
The Olweus program reports 30-70% reduction in reports of bullying. This the program which I like the best and has a good research record.
Over the years I have referred schools to it and used it to form a basis for my work in this area. The training I just completed as a part of the school district plan locally did include some sensitivity to GLB students and namecalling. The problem was named, affirmed as serious with resolve to address it along with any other hot issues. This was a proactive approach with no effort from the trainer to change anyone’s beliefs.
This is clearly an area where the Church and the Christian community could make a real difference. Youth groups can address the issue of bullying. We certainly need to counter the Lot Projects out there.
And I do think Focus on the Family is missing the boat on how they are approaching this. James Dobson has been widely influential to parents. True, my kids gagged when I made them listen to “Preparing for Adolescence.” They (girls both) wanted to hear that stuff more from me. But if Dobson became a senior ambassador, sort of like the former presidents have been, it might carry a lot of weight. For that matter, why not get a former president or even someone like Laura Bush, a former librarian, to take it on as a national project? Or get a team of several such “heavies” to do it.
David, I posted this morning about two reports that showed a range of between 14 and 20 percent reduction in bullying through programs. That’s not exactly lighting it up. Would love to know if there is better news out there.
Mary – I am also concerned about that as well. We used to think that couldn’t happen but in young populations there can be the effect you describe. I think the campaigns need to be aimed at adults to shape better environments for kids.
Perhaps the best approach is to let those who need more evidence before they sign on to go search for it.
But in the meantime the rest of us can get behind those who are trying to combat bullying and give them our support, spread the word about the problem, and be an advocate for the kids.
And we can expose and oppose those who stand in the way and empower the bullies.
I am concerned that the media attention given to these might be contagious to other teens. We know when suicide is highlighted, suicides increase in clumps or within certain identifying groups. I expect to see another soon.
.
Yes, Warren. But let’s all evaluate these programs on their own merits rather than presume they are the answer. We have yet to do that in any of the threads addressing bullying here. Does anybody have any evidence of programs that work? We need more than nice-sounding talking points. We also have to stop making the “culture war” the bogeyman here. The devil is in the details. That’s a big hint.
We have a moral breakdown that is leading to reprehensible behavior. It is at least gratifying, though heart-wrenching, to know these bullying kids have a conscience. And it ought to torment (convict is a better word) them into changing. That’s a start.
Once again, is this an American problem? Does this happen in Europe? To the same extent? For the same reasons?
I’ve been looking around online and it seems to me that this kind of bullying is far worse here.
If this is, as the post implies, an aspect of the ‘culture war’. What does that say about that ‘war’? What does that say about those who wage it?
Could you point that out to me again? Statistics?
I’m not sure that we really are qualified to (or need to) investigate the details and effectiveness of each individuals anti-bullying program. It’s a bit like reinventing the wheel.
There are a number of organizations which exist solely to reduce violence and bullying on campus. And they seems to universally agree on what methods are effective.
There will always be some website or person with an opinion that disagrees. But at present, I’m going to go with those programs that are recommended by those who make it their life’s mission to protect children.
I think the best thing we can do is just give them our support, spread the word about the problem, and be an advocate for the kids.
Warren
The environment – the culture they live in – is key.
Debbie,
yep – You’ve seen actual evidence of what makes up successful programs!
I agree. Let’s see how they do.
We don’t need pious platitudes or more finger-pointing, Stephen. Nice. Just when it seemed we might have been moving forward.
In Debbie’s reply one sees the problem crystalized. And why it will never be meaningfully addressed.
As Caesar says of Brittanicus in Shaw’s play: He is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.
I’ve seen that strong opinion, but have I seen actual evidence? I ferreted out some information on why programs are alleged not to work. I am not saying they don’t or can’t work. I just want to see some evidence that they do. I want to see a genuine cook in the kitchen instead of a lot of people running around with their hair on fire.
I have an earlier comment awaiting moderation, FYI.
Debbie,
I still haven’t had time to look at the actual programs but we DO know what needs to be included in those programs – you’ve already seen that evidence.
This is clearly an area where the Church and the Christian community could make a real difference. Youth groups can address the issue of bullying. We certainly need to counter the Lot Projects out there.
And I do think Focus on the Family is missing the boat on how they are approaching this. James Dobson has been widely influential to parents. True, my kids gagged when I made them listen to “Preparing for Adolescence.” They (girls both) wanted to hear that stuff more from me. But if Dobson became a senior ambassador, sort of like the former presidents have been, it might carry a lot of weight. For that matter, why not get a former president or even someone like Laura Bush, a former librarian, to take it on as a national project? Or get a team of several such “heavies” to do it.
Mary – I am also concerned about that as well. We used to think that couldn’t happen but in young populations there can be the effect you describe. I think the campaigns need to be aimed at adults to shape better environments for kids.
I am concerned that the media attention given to these might be contagious to other teens. We know when suicide is highlighted, suicides increase in clumps or within certain identifying groups. I expect to see another soon.
.
Yes, Warren. But let’s all evaluate these programs on their own merits rather than presume they are the answer. We have yet to do that in any of the threads addressing bullying here. Does anybody have any evidence of programs that work? We need more than nice-sounding talking points. We also have to stop making the “culture war” the bogeyman here. The devil is in the details. That’s a big hint.
We have a moral breakdown that is leading to reprehensible behavior. It is at least gratifying, though heart-wrenching, to know these bullying kids have a conscience. And it ought to torment (convict is a better word) them into changing. That’s a start.
Once again, is this an American problem? Does this happen in Europe? To the same extent? For the same reasons?
I’ve been looking around online and it seems to me that this kind of bullying is far worse here.
If this is, as the post implies, an aspect of the ‘culture war’. What does that say about that ‘war’? What does that say about those who wage it?