Will Hawaii be 2nd dominionist state?

TalkToAction asks this question using different words.

This information is important to help evaluate the rise of Lou Engle and Cindy Jacobs in Republican politics during the last decade.

For our Ugandan friends worried about American intervention in your nation: Check it out, Uganda, Hawaii and Alaska – The United States of the New Apostolic Reformation (USNAR).  

These efforts to win political entities (states, nations) rest on what I believe to be a faulty understanding of God’s OT covenant with the nation of Israel. In short, the NAR folks take the covenant God made with Israel to apply to the Church. One of the key verses identified in the TalkToAction post is Deuteronomy 28:13:

The LORD will make you the head, not the tail. If you pay attention to the commands of the LORD your God that I give you this day and carefully follow them, you will always be at the top, never at the bottom.

Even though the ministry of Jesus was to usher in a new covenant, the adherents of NAR want the old one to apply prescriptively to the present day. They seem to believe Christians can take these promises to the cosmic bank if they take over the nation (state, city, etc.). Likewise, listening to Lou Engle, it becomes clear, he believes that the problems America faces derives from failure to follow the law of Moses.

However, none of these promises or threats of curse apply to anyone but Israel as is clear from the first verse of the next chapter (Deut. 29:1):

These are the terms of the covenant the LORD commanded Moses to make with the Israelites in Moab, in addition to the covenant he had made with them at Horeb.

I do not think the United States of America as a nation is referenced in the Bible. In my view, viewing these promises and curses directed toward Israel as applying to the US or any other nation is egocentric thinking.

All of this may seem like theological inside baseball, but given the continuing merger of NAR religious leaders and some elements within the GOP, understanding these theological foundations will be key to understanding at least the next two elections.

26 thoughts on “Will Hawaii be 2nd dominionist state?”

  1. McVeigh was no Dominionist. This is from Wikipedia, so consider the source. However:

    In a recorded interview with Time magazine, McVeigh professed his belief in “a god”, although he said he had “sort of lost touch with” Catholicism and “I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs.” Throughout his childhood, he and his father were Roman Catholic and regularly attended daily Mass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York. The Guardian reported that McVeigh wrote a letter to them claiming to be an agnostic and that he did not believe in a hell.

    Weaver was akin to McVeigh and Koresh was a cultist, not a Christian.

    For every ADL-targeted-underground-that-nobody-ever-heard-of militia, I’m sure you could find multiple underground Muslim extremist cell groups.

    The only one that gets into the ballpark is abortion clinic bombings. A heinous tactic, soundly rejected by mainstream Christians, whereas peace-loving Islam followers do not generally denounce their extremists.

    I don’t discount extremists anywhere. I merely point out the weight of evidence against the claim that Dominionism is a greater threat than militant Islamic fanaticism.

  2. I think Dominionism is so “out there” as to be no real threat to our American way of life. Most people will see it for what it is, especially in a nation that is tumbling into a post-Christian age. We would be better served studying and being prepared to defend against Islamofascism, which is a real threat.

  3. Debbie Thurman# ~ Sep 15, 2010 at 6:56 am

    “Jayhuck, how many Christians are running training camps and recruiting suicide/homicide bombers and carrying out subsequent murderous attacks? ”

    More than you think Debbie. Here are a few that the ADL are keeping tabs on:

    Kentucky State Militia, Ohio Unorganized Militia Assistance and Advisory Committee, Southeastern Ohio Defense Force, Michigan Militia (two factions using the same name), Southern Indiana Regional Militia, Southern California High Desert Militia (and others).

    “How many have flown airplanes into buildings, killing thousands of innocent people?”

    None, their preferred method is a truck bomb.

    “How many Christians use women and children as shields on the battlefield?

    How many barricade themselves into churches, booby-trap them and become deadly snipers, daring anyone to come in after them and “desecrate” their holy shrines? ”

    Of the top of my head there was Randy Weaver at Ruby Ridge, and David Koresh at Waco. I’m sure there are more.

    “How many threaten and actually murder those who take the name of Jesus in vain? ”

    How many abortion clinic bombings have there been? Murders of doctors at these clinics? More than a few.

    All of these incidents I referenced involved christians claiming they did what they did in the name of their god. Yet, everyone seems to recognize these cases as people perverting christian beliefs. However, when it comes to similar atrocities carried out in the name of islam, many people seem more than willing to blindly accept these acts as a central part of the islamic faith.

    I suspect that in many religions you will be able to find examples of leaders twisting the religion to get their followers to do terrible things. The fact that you discount these things in christianity while attempting to argue they are a central part of islam, says more about you than it does the islamic faith.

  4. Islamofascism? I think Christianofascism/Dominionism is a bigger threat

    From Wikipedia on the subject of the so-called idea of Islamofascism:

    Critics such as former National Review columnist Joseph Sobran, and New York Times columnist Paul Krugman argue that “Islamofascism is nothing but an empty propaganda term.” used by proponents of the “War on Terror”.[14][16][17] Security expert Daniel Benjamin, political scientist Norman Finkelstein and The American Conservative columnist Daniel Larison, highlight the claim that, despite its use as a piece of propaganda, the term is inherently meaningless, since as Benjamin notes, “there is no sense in which jihadists embrace fascist ideology as it was developed by Mussolini or anyone else who was associated with the term.”[18][19]

  5. Jayhuck, how many Christians are running training camps and recruiting suicide/homicide bombers and carrying out subsequent murderous attacks?

    How many have flown airplanes into buildings, killing thousands of innocent people?

    How many Christians use women and children as shields on the battlefield?

    How many barricade themselves into churches, booby-trap them and become deadly snipers, daring anyone to come in after them and “desecrate” their holy shrines?

    How many threaten and actually murder those who take the name of Jesus in vain?

    How many want to build a cathedral on the site of a Dominionist attack that killed thousands of Arab-speaking nationals? Oh wait. Strike that last question. The attack never happened.

    How many Christian nations have Dominionist law, meaning stoning to death of homosexuals or cutting off the hands of thieves and other unspeakable horrors?

    How many (countless) Dominionist plots or attacks have been foiled by vigilance?

    And, finally, what are you smoking?

  6. Christian laws and Christian principals are deeply embedded in US culture…if I have learned nothing else in the last 6 years, it is how deeply rooted Christianity is here.

    That being said, popular culture is definitely post Christian. Deprivation for long term goals and commitment to a community over a commitment to self are not 1) marketable or 2) entertaining.

    Dominionism cannot exist without a highly flawed, simplistic and narcissistic interpretation of Scripture.

    My Ego masquerades as Biblical authority…for the Dominionist

    My Ego masquerades as My Rights…for the popular culture fiend.

    :).

  7. I really enjoy Christians minimizing the extremists in their own religion saying they don’t speak for the well-informed majority and then turning around and upholding the idea that extremists speak for the majority of another religion

  8. post-Christian?

    I’m no Christian, but let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater. If only more Christians actually followed in Christ’s footsteps – as some do – being “post-Christian” would not be desirable.

  9. In the US, there are far far more radical extremist Christians than there are radical extremist Muslims. Many in both groups would happily murder me and think it justified by their religious beliefs.

    How do you come by this, Timothy? A person who has reasoned objections to the extra-constitutional, anti-biblical rights you seek is not an extremist radical. I’d call such a person a thinking American and not one who has allowed the catch phrase or cause of the day (bigotry, for example) to shut down critical debate on important issues (life and liberty).

    I’d like to see/hear your reaction if an armed Islamic extremist was waving an AK-47 in your face. Would you go to martyrdom with a smile on your face, shouting “Gay Pride!”? Or would your last thoughts have something to do with your faith? Have you thought about it?

    Compare the numbers of professing Christians and Jews with the numbers of gays. Now tell me how great a hole would be left in the world if Islamic radicals had their way.

  10. In the US, there are far far more radical extremist Christians than there are radical extremist Muslims. Many in both groups would happily murder me and think it justified by their religious beliefs.

    Further, the radical extremist Christians have the sympathy and support of slightly less radical Christian extremists who might not justify murder but certainly would support denying me even the most basic of rights. And these slightly less radical Christian extremists often obtain positions of power (hello Christine O’Donnell).

    So, simply in terms of numbers and power, the far greater threat to my own personal life, freedom, rights, and liberty comes from radical extremist Christians. Muslims – of any type, anywhere – are a far lower threat to me.

  11. In the US, there are far far more radical extremist Christians than there are radical extremist Muslims. Many in both groups would happily murder me and think it justified by their religious beliefs.

    How do you come by this, Timothy? A person who has reasoned objections to the extra-constitutional, anti-biblical rights you seek is not an extremist radical. I’d call such a person a thinking American and not one who has allowed the catch phrase or cause of the day (bigotry, for example) to shut down critical debate on important issues (life and liberty).

    I’d like to see/hear your reaction if an armed Islamic extremist was waving an AK-47 in your face. Would you go to martyrdom with a smile on your face, shouting “Gay Pride!”? Or would your last thoughts have something to do with your faith? Have you thought about it?

    Compare the numbers of professing Christians and Jews with the numbers of gays. Now tell me how great a hole would be left in the world if Islamic radicals had their way.

  12. In the US, there are far far more radical extremist Christians than there are radical extremist Muslims. Many in both groups would happily murder me and think it justified by their religious beliefs.

    How do you come by this, Timothy? A person who has reasoned objections to the extra-constitutional, anti-biblical rights you seek is not an extremist radical. I’d call such a person a thinking American and not one who has allowed the catch phrase or cause of the day (bigotry, for example) to shut down critical debate on important issues (life and liberty).

    I’d like to see/hear your reaction if an armed Islamic extremist was waving an AK-47 in your face. Would you go to martyrdom with a smile on your face, shouting “Gay Pride!”? Or would your last thoughts have something to do with your faith? Have you thought about it?

    Compare the numbers of professing Christians and Jews with the numbers of gays. Now tell me how great a hole would be left in the world if Islamic radicals had their way.

  13. In the US, there are far far more radical extremist Christians than there are radical extremist Muslims. Many in both groups would happily murder me and think it justified by their religious beliefs.

    Further, the radical extremist Christians have the sympathy and support of slightly less radical Christian extremists who might not justify murder but certainly would support denying me even the most basic of rights. And these slightly less radical Christian extremists often obtain positions of power (hello Christine O’Donnell).

    So, simply in terms of numbers and power, the far greater threat to my own personal life, freedom, rights, and liberty comes from radical extremist Christians. Muslims – of any type, anywhere – are a far lower threat to me.

  14. In the US, there are far far more radical extremist Christians than there are radical extremist Muslims. Many in both groups would happily murder me and think it justified by their religious beliefs.

    Further, the radical extremist Christians have the sympathy and support of slightly less radical Christian extremists who might not justify murder but certainly would support denying me even the most basic of rights. And these slightly less radical Christian extremists often obtain positions of power (hello Christine O’Donnell).

    So, simply in terms of numbers and power, the far greater threat to my own personal life, freedom, rights, and liberty comes from radical extremist Christians. Muslims – of any type, anywhere – are a far lower threat to me.

  15. McVeigh was no Dominionist. This is from Wikipedia, so consider the source. However:

    In a recorded interview with Time magazine, McVeigh professed his belief in “a god”, although he said he had “sort of lost touch with” Catholicism and “I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs.” Throughout his childhood, he and his father were Roman Catholic and regularly attended daily Mass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York. The Guardian reported that McVeigh wrote a letter to them claiming to be an agnostic and that he did not believe in a hell.

    Weaver was akin to McVeigh and Koresh was a cultist, not a Christian.

    For every ADL-targeted-underground-that-nobody-ever-heard-of militia, I’m sure you could find multiple underground Muslim extremist cell groups.

    The only one that gets into the ballpark is abortion clinic bombings. A heinous tactic, soundly rejected by mainstream Christians, whereas peace-loving Islam followers do not generally denounce their extremists.

    I don’t discount extremists anywhere. I merely point out the weight of evidence against the claim that Dominionism is a greater threat than militant Islamic fanaticism.

  16. Debbie Thurman# ~ Sep 15, 2010 at 6:56 am

    “Jayhuck, how many Christians are running training camps and recruiting suicide/homicide bombers and carrying out subsequent murderous attacks? ”

    More than you think Debbie. Here are a few that the ADL are keeping tabs on:

    Kentucky State Militia, Ohio Unorganized Militia Assistance and Advisory Committee, Southeastern Ohio Defense Force, Michigan Militia (two factions using the same name), Southern Indiana Regional Militia, Southern California High Desert Militia (and others).

    “How many have flown airplanes into buildings, killing thousands of innocent people?”

    None, their preferred method is a truck bomb.

    “How many Christians use women and children as shields on the battlefield?

    How many barricade themselves into churches, booby-trap them and become deadly snipers, daring anyone to come in after them and “desecrate” their holy shrines? ”

    Of the top of my head there was Randy Weaver at Ruby Ridge, and David Koresh at Waco. I’m sure there are more.

    “How many threaten and actually murder those who take the name of Jesus in vain? ”

    How many abortion clinic bombings have there been? Murders of doctors at these clinics? More than a few.

    All of these incidents I referenced involved christians claiming they did what they did in the name of their god. Yet, everyone seems to recognize these cases as people perverting christian beliefs. However, when it comes to similar atrocities carried out in the name of islam, many people seem more than willing to blindly accept these acts as a central part of the islamic faith.

    I suspect that in many religions you will be able to find examples of leaders twisting the religion to get their followers to do terrible things. The fact that you discount these things in christianity while attempting to argue they are a central part of islam, says more about you than it does the islamic faith.

  17. Jayhuck, how many Christians are running training camps and recruiting suicide/homicide bombers and carrying out subsequent murderous attacks?

    How many have flown airplanes into buildings, killing thousands of innocent people?

    How many Christians use women and children as shields on the battlefield?

    How many barricade themselves into churches, booby-trap them and become deadly snipers, daring anyone to come in after them and “desecrate” their holy shrines?

    How many threaten and actually murder those who take the name of Jesus in vain?

    How many want to build a cathedral on the site of a Dominionist attack that killed thousands of Arab-speaking nationals? Oh wait. Strike that last question. The attack never happened.

    How many Christian nations have Dominionist law, meaning stoning to death of homosexuals or cutting off the hands of thieves and other unspeakable horrors?

    How many (countless) Dominionist plots or attacks have been foiled by vigilance?

    And, finally, what are you smoking?

  18. I really enjoy Christians minimizing the extremists in their own religion saying they don’t speak for the well-informed majority and then turning around and upholding the idea that extremists speak for the majority of another religion

  19. Islamofascism? I think Christianofascism/Dominionism is a bigger threat

    From Wikipedia on the subject of the so-called idea of Islamofascism:

    Critics such as former National Review columnist Joseph Sobran, and New York Times columnist Paul Krugman argue that “Islamofascism is nothing but an empty propaganda term.” used by proponents of the “War on Terror”.[14][16][17] Security expert Daniel Benjamin, political scientist Norman Finkelstein and The American Conservative columnist Daniel Larison, highlight the claim that, despite its use as a piece of propaganda, the term is inherently meaningless, since as Benjamin notes, “there is no sense in which jihadists embrace fascist ideology as it was developed by Mussolini or anyone else who was associated with the term.”[18][19]

  20. Christian laws and Christian principals are deeply embedded in US culture…if I have learned nothing else in the last 6 years, it is how deeply rooted Christianity is here.

    That being said, popular culture is definitely post Christian. Deprivation for long term goals and commitment to a community over a commitment to self are not 1) marketable or 2) entertaining.

    Dominionism cannot exist without a highly flawed, simplistic and narcissistic interpretation of Scripture.

    My Ego masquerades as Biblical authority…for the Dominionist

    My Ego masquerades as My Rights…for the popular culture fiend.

    :).

  21. post-Christian?

    I’m no Christian, but let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater. If only more Christians actually followed in Christ’s footsteps – as some do – being “post-Christian” would not be desirable.

  22. I think Dominionism is so “out there” as to be no real threat to our American way of life. Most people will see it for what it is, especially in a nation that is tumbling into a post-Christian age. We would be better served studying and being prepared to defend against Islamofascism, which is a real threat.

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