In my review of information about American evangelicals in Africa, I have learned at least one thing — writing about the US ministries that do not have a connection with Uganda might be easier than disclosing those that do. Many groups have been there, invested there and worked with those who seem most responsible for the Anti-Homosexuality Bill.
This post briefly looks at one household name in Uganda – Joyce Meyer. At least I am told by some Ugandans that she is well known and a review of her activities there make this assessment believable.
Joyce Meyer is one of several high profile preachers with bestselling books and a massive empire based on the success of those books. Meyer’s Christianity seems to be Pentecostal with a heaping dose of prosperity tossed in. Meyer is on television every day in Uganda via LTV – Uganda’s affiliate of Paul Crouch’s TBN. When she held meetings in Uganda in 2008, hundreds of thousands of Ugandans turned out to see her and listen to Christian bands, delirious and Hillsong. She had meetings with Uganda’s first lady, Janet Museveni.
Nothing wrong with any of this or her current work there. Meyer is partnering with a Ugandan church to provide care for orphans which is after all one of the hallmarks of true religion according to the New Testament. I am writing about Joyce Meyer is due to the church with which she works in Uganda – Watoto Community Church. WCC is home to Stephen Langa, who is an elder there and one of the chief cheerleaders for the Anti-Homosexuality Bill.
So in partnership with Marilyn and Gary Skinner and their ministry we are helping to build a Watoto children’s village there. They have also planted a great church, and we have plans to build a babies’ home, too.
The highlight came when over 200,000 people, in 2 nights, came to see Joyce and the Hillsong worship band.
Joyce preached with an incredible boldness, breaking down many walls of fear, brokenness and helplessness that the years of war had left. We have a long-term commitment to this area and believe through God’s power and your prayers, we can turn an impossible situation around.
It appears that Joyce Meyer Ministries is truly doing a good work at the Watoto Church. No doubt Watoto Church elder Stephen Langa is doing good things to support children there. However, he also supports a bill that in the current form would make some private, consensual adult behaviors punishable by death or life in prison. His proposal also criminalizes confidential professional relationships with same-sex attracted people now taken for granted by all pastoral and health care professionals. The harshness of the current bill rivals that of Muslim regimes where homosexuality is criminalized. So faced with a collaborator who is engaged in such an effort, Joyce Meyer could use her influence to denounce the bill on Ugandan television without denouncing the child related work there. She could do what Rick Warren has done and declare opposition to what Warren calls an “unchristian” proposal. However, when asked via email and phone, Joyce Meyer Ministries told me this instead:
While we both understand and appreciate your interest in contacting us, unfortunately, we have no comment to offer.
Thank you.
Joyce Meyer Ministries
While I can both understand and appreciate Joyce Meyer’s interest in staying neutral, I am disappointed that she is not using her influence both to help children and stand up for those image-bearers of God who are the target of the Anti-Homosexuality Bill 2009.
Yes, Lynn, it is, and some US politicians are still peddling this kind of nonsense.
But it is, as far as I can see, also the case that the ‘recruitment’ line now seems less evident in Ugandan dialectic.
Richard…
It stilll is used these days. Back in 2004/2005 my own state senator here in Indiana produced a pamphlet in which he said:
Francis
Oh dear! I thought we Ugandans were so past that recruitment idea, no one recruited me into heterosexuality, did anyone recruit you?
Well, at least Francis opposes the Bill.
Have you noticed, Lynn, how the ‘recruitment’ propaganda line is not used so much these days? People like Ssempa tried it, of course, but his efforts went ‘pear-shaped’ when one of the alleged ‘recruitees’ told the New York Times that he had been paid to say that he had been ‘recruited’.
Ssempa (a strong, athletic man, especially in his youth) tried a different line at MUK on Saturday when he claimed he had been ‘attacked by a homosexual’: http://www.monitor.co.ug/Magazines/Life/-/689856/1275756/-/bqlela/-/index.html
Hmmmmm.
No one is recruiting anyone by any means. That’s an old wives’ tale used by people to denounce gay people.
No one is doing this in the least.
No one is converting or even seeking to convert anyone. Any financial aid is to groups who seek to have their rights as human beings upheld, to seek in liberty their own path in their life to happiness,
I wish people such as yourself would quit subscribing to the lies that gays recruit.
Much as I disagree with the bill esp with the punishment it proposes, I also disagree with the recruiting technique used by gay people. This whole thing of telling kids to try the act, just to find out if they were born that way ain’t right. The whole act by the American and British gays of empwering their converts financially leaves these kids at the risk of these moguls and only their morals to save them. unfortunately, at this time very few of them can distinguish wat is right from what is wrong, and when they finally have to face the reality that they enjoy an act they were introduced to….they come up with this thing that that’s how I was born….A sheer denial of responsibility…. Can we leave the preachers alone and face up to ourselves if you were born gay, why recruit? why not wait for the Force that created you gay to create more gay people……Preachers are paid to preach and if they preach….they are being accountable to the people that tithe.
Wish all the gays subscribed to this well….Perharps thats the way you were born… I dont know coz I am not God
Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar , T.D Jakes et al are huge here in Uganda amongst Christian folk as a result of free TBN programming on a local terrestrial TV station here. They have a pretty good following among Christians, there influence can not be over-estimated. If they do speak directly on this issue, it will most certainly make a big impact. Personally I heard of Rick Warren, Scot Lively and Exodus only recently via their connection with the AHB, their influence is pretty limited. As for Stephen Langa one has to be careful in generalising his views to his parent church and fellow pastors working there. Kampala Pentecostal Church after all has many liberal christians in its following. The silence of head pastor, Garry Skinner and fellow pastors at KPC is deafening, they haven’t come out openly and endorsed Langa’s stance. Furthermore, Langa himself has become silent of late. Pastor Ssempa has been the lone steadfast campaigner in this save for a one Pastor Male.
David–
While I agree with most of your post, I take exception to “People don’t turn gay, people are born gay.” From my understanding, the notion that people are born gay is still an unproven theory and should not be spoken as a fact.
Debbie, some of those orphans that you are referring to are gay. People don’t turn gay, people are born gay. Are human lives more precious when they are young? I have been to third world countries and I am very aware of the conditions. I have dedicated my life to helping those who are HIV positive. We can’t ignore one group of people to help another. Jesus loves everyone and regardless of your opinion and judgements we are told that we must also love our neighbor. Do Christians not have compassion for people anymore? Whatever happened to praying for individuals and acting in their behalf despite judgements?
Before we throw the baby out with the bath water. Some countries still don’t let women walk in front of men. Some can’t vote. Some are still traded like stocks.
My bible tells me ALL have fallen short. The good being done by Joyce Meyer Ministries certainly is beyond what any one of us could accomplish individually.
Gay or Strait. Catholics have learned about hypocrisy and attitude in the church.
I believe Joyce teaches a positive attitude about life with the bible as support. She builds up not tear down. I don’t think I will be judge by Joyce Meyer at the end of my life.
Apparently, those of you have not been to Uganda and other third world countries do not understand how it works. When you are allowed in their country to do good works for the orphans and widows, you follow their rules. Have we not learned yet about invading others countries and telling them how to run their government. The children of Uganda deserve to have the help of Joyce Meyer Ministries and other organization who are able to help them with their physical needs. People who have not been there (sign up for a mission trip) have no realistic idea of the conditions these children live in. Don’t blow it for them.
An example: on occasion, some new member on the FB group will go off on Christians or ex-gays. I know it may be hard to believe, but I contact the member privately, explain that the group was created by Christians and that many Christians and ex-gays are members.
I then ask them if they would be willing to be more inclusive and withdraw their comment — in the interest of building a coalition of people — regardless of their orientation, sexual indentity or faith. When they say “yes”, I say “thanks”. No need to add more pain to an already painful situation.
I only meant that, perhaps, saying “thank-you” can help ease the pain of impoliteness they might have experienced earlier on. Thanks can help calm waters sometimes. When someone does something postive it can sooth pain to know that the effort was noticed and appreciated.
When I posted the news about FOTF, I simply wanted to say thank-you to FOTF and suggest that a statement from Ms. Meyer mightalso be helpful. I did that. That is all I wanted to do.
I am grateful for and welcome public statements, calls, letters, prayers, quiet diplomacy — and whatever else conservative Christians may be doing — in the spotlight or behind the scenes — to help defeat this Bill.
I missed the pain part? Was making the statement painful for them? Or is this a reference to the pain of being harassed until they made a statement?
BTW: Here is a link for anyone who might want to send a polite word of thanks to FOTF for issuing their statement: http://family.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/family.cfg/php/enduser/ask.php?p_sid=11O4Xemi&p_accessibility=0&p_lva=14190
Thank-yous can help ease the pain sometimes. 🙂
I did not mean her. I was speaking of people like Rick Warren, who at first said, “no comment” for political reasons and then decided to issue one for pastoral reasons. He wanted to make it clear where he stood. Sometimes we ask because they have said nothing at all — and sometimes we ask them to reconsider when their initial response was “no comment”.
Either way, I respect their right not to make a public statement at all, but am always grateful when they do — for the reasons I have stated — because I am convinced Uganda is more likely to listen to “them” than to “us”. If conservative Christians would rather work quietly behind the scenes, I respect that — just as I respect that you have elected not to join the Facebook group.
Would you like to make a comment? Would you like to join this group? Those are always appropritate questions. And “no thanks” is a perfectly polite and appropriate response in my book.
My comment in no way inferred your feelings towards Joyce Meyer and her response, it simply went to the statement you offered as ‘sort of’ a rebuttal to David’s assessment that wasn’t entirely accurate. We did not ‘ask’ Joyce for comment BECAUSE she offered a ‘no comment’ response. We asked AND THEN we got the ‘no comment’ response. There’s nothing there to support the conclusion that a ‘no comment’ response prompts us to ‘ask or demand’.
Since this is the first time I can recall that we’ve discussed an I have ‘no comment’ response, I don’t think we can really assess whether ‘no comment’ responses motivate people to ask or demand. In this instance, ‘no comment’ seems to be enough (at least for most). I see no indication that it has prompted anyone to ask or demand further. I actually appreciate that level of respect.
Demanding may not be appropriate. There is nothing wrong with asking.She was asked. She answered. She chose not to comment. That is perfectly OK.
I did not post to criticize her, but to thank FOTF for their statement — and to suggest that a similar statement from her might be helpful in some way. That’s it. Honest.
Frankly, I really don’t know who she is — or care. I had never heard her name until this came up. As I said, I welcome anyone opposed to this Bill — whether their actions and impact are in the spotlight or behind the scenes.
How ever they choose to do it, I believe that conservative Christians can do more to impact this situation than gays and gay advocates can ever hope to. We are seen as the enemy. Among Ugandan religious leaders, Conservative Christians are more likely to be seen as friends.
I am not unhappy with Joyce Meyer. She was asked. She decided to make no comment. That is her right. I was happy that Exodus, Rick Warren and FOTF had issued public statements. If she had done the same, it would be welcome, but I respect her right not to.
First, let’s clarify…Joyce Meyer offered ‘no comment’ AFTER she was asked. So the ‘no comment’ response is not the BECAUSE…it’s the response.
And what makes it appropriate to ask or demand such a response from Joyce Meyer? Has she spoken to gay issues before? Has she had involvements in the politics of Uganda? Oh, I see, she’s a Conservative Christian who has a ministry to orphans in Uganda. Why is it important that she speak out publicly? (For answer, refer to David’s post.)
I agree. That is often true.
But, there are other times when we ask (demand) that they dispel fears because of their own mis-steps, mistakes in judgement and distortions, not ours.
Sometimes, we ask or demand because they have said nothing or “no comment”.
Sometimes, yes, the pain is a tactic.
Sometimes, yes, we would not be comforted no matter what they say. Many people do not believe that Exodus, Rick Warren and Focus on the Family are really opposed to this Bill. (I happen to believe them.)
But, I don’t care who is comforted and who is not — as long as religious leaders in Uganda believe that they are opposed to it — and that they might listen and follow their example. Gay activists can’t do it. Maybe their Christian brethren can.
What is often painful for people on all sides of any debate, is the frightening way we define our opponents…absolutely frightening. We define them, and then torment ourselves with their worst phrases, often times taken out of context.
We then demand that they dispel the fears we have created through our distortions.
This happens on all sides.
It has happened with the Uganda Homosexuality Bill as some have assumed the worst about Exodus, or “The Family” or Rick Warren. The pain is so palpable, that even when these folks take clear positions against it, it is still not of sufficient comfort.
Beyond the pain, for some it is a cynical tactic.
“Lots of behind the scenes stuff, I am sure, is helping too.” — I said that partly because Dr. Throckmorton keeps assuring me it is true. I appreciate that, Warren. As you know, silences and no comments can make me dubious… 🙂
BTW, I don’t think there is much need left for pushing conservative Christian leaders to speak out. Maybe there never was. Who knows? In time, it is possible that they might have done it without any pushing at all.
Perhaps they are now following the lead of others conservative Christianswho have already done so, but more and more, their numbers are increasing. They seem to be doing it all on their own… 🙂 And I, like Warren, think they are having a postive impact.
I completely agree. That would be wonderful.
BTW, I agree that official statements from conservative Christians are not the be all and end all. Just another tool in the tool box. But one that I believe IS having an impact. Lots of behind the scenes stuff, I am sure, is helping too.
For me, it was never about the one right approach…it was the constant requests to put all the eggs in one basket and to ignore the propriety of other baskets existing. Even now, as some are beginning to see the value of having other approaches to this situation, there’s still the intense focus on and pressure for ‘public statements from conservative Christians’ as the be all/end all.
Sometimes it’s subtle, as in the Joyce Meyer situation. Until I raised a voice suggesting that, with her personal connections in Uganda, she might be prayerfully pursuing private paths of impact, we were (and perhaps still are) waging a small campaign to force her to speak out publicly. We want sound bites and cheerleading statements that we can wave in the air. And, it kills us not to know. What if I’m wrong and she’s not doing anything privately? What then? What an awkward and powerless feeling the ‘not knowing’ is. There are many who can’t abide those awkward and powerless feelings. May God bless them as they endure the diversity of the human response.
Again, I was trying to agree with you. I understand English. I was happy to hear the news about FOTF and I was only suggesting that a statement like FOTF’s might help. I never said she had said nothing. She said she had “no comment to offer”. There is a difference. I undertstand that “no comment” IS a comment.
I thought that making a clear comment against the Bill might clear up speculation. I believe the Statements from Exodus, RIck Warren and FOTF have, and will continue to yield postive outcomes.
In terms of “approach”s, we may both feel that our way, our style of expressing our concern and wanting to have impact is some way the more useful or more appropriate one.
It may yet be that a combination of approaches will work best. Like giving several different antibiotics to cure an illness. You may be correct. Yours may be the right one.
and that’s why I had to reassert that a ‘no comment’ statement did not fit the definition of total silence. Let’s forget those more abstract words like ‘change’ and see if we can agree on words like ‘total’ and ‘all’ and ‘most’ and ‘some’. that creep into our everyday comments.
That is true. We have had numerous arguments over the meaning of words over these years, haven’t we? And I am sure we even though we both feel we are speaking plain English, we both get frustrated when the other peron doesn’t get what we think is perfectly clear.
Good point.
I agree with this. That is certainly possible. The behind the scenes, quiet, non-bandwagon approach has it’s usefulness too.
My point was that she gave an official ‘no comment’ to Warren and that says nothing about whether she is or isn’t speaking to this issue privately. Like me, she may be deeply concerned, want to have impact, but is unwilling to take the bandwagon approach.
I clarified that her ‘no comment’ statement was not ‘total silence’…even a ‘no comment’ statement is, in fact, a statement. The word ‘total’ has a meaning and my point was that she WAS NOT responding with total silence. I constantly see the meaning of words get watered down or twisted which only makes future dialogue more cumbersome. I will continue to fight for the English language where all means all, most means most, some means some and total means total.
I’m funny that way….
I am not sure where these should be posted, but here is more on FOTF’s statement:
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/12/26/18837?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+BoxTurtleBulletin+%28Box+Turtle+Bulletin%29
http://theformers.wordpress.com/2009/12/28/focus-on-the-family-denounces-ugandas-anti-homosexuality-bill/
I suspect that when Warren is feeling better, he will post something about it on his blog so it can be discussed there, if people would like to do so.
Peace. I will leave it at that. It will be very interesting to see what impact the FOTF statement may have. Happy New Year.
Eddy, come on. I was agreeing you. I also am “not sure why some are surprised thhat she/they didn’t repsond as they did.” She has that right.
I also believe that “if she’s done any looking into this at all, she can see that total silence is a breeding ground for numerous comments and speculations.”
She certainly has the right to say nothing but “no comment”. How did I not get your point? I think I understood it. Perhpas I did not.. I read it very carefully, several times — and meant to express agreement with you, not stir something up.
My point after that was to share my opinion that making a clear public statement — like Exodus, Rick Warren and FOTF have done — might prevent a “breeding ground for numerous comments and speculations.” I think their comments helped and are helping the situation.
I am very pleased to learn of FOTF’s opposition to the Bill. I am hopeful Uganda will listen. And, following FOTF’s example, I am hopeful that other religious leaders, like Joyce Meyer, may do the same. She may choose not to. That is certainly her right.
Michael obviously missed the point of the quote that he took out of context. LOL. I thought it sounded like me but I see that he misread the ‘total silence’ context that I was answering Warren about. Joyce did not go with ‘total silence’…ignoring Warren’s request as if it didn’t happen…her ministry offered a very cordial ‘no comment’. I tend to think there was purpose in that.
Some may try to stir it back up…trying to garner more questions and speculation…but, truth is, this one seems to have burned out with only eight comments.
I agree. To avoid that, perhaps Joyce Meyer could prayerfully consider speaking privately with Alan Chambers, Pastor Rick Warren, the President of Focus On The Family — and follow their wise counsel and compassionate example:
http://www.truthwinsout.org/pressreleases/2009/12/5606
I pray that many more will listen to them. I pray that Uganda will listen.
It is interesting, the kind of coalition that is building up to fight this bill.
Yesterday Pastor Ssempa and co were at the Parliament, demonstrating. Apparently the news of the presidents assurances to the US State department meant that he now has to use people power, to have the bill made law. It is unlikely, because Museveni is effectively a dictator, but, it can be very embarrassing to the president.
Anyway, it means that Ssempa has to rely on his coalition of religious groups to force parliament and the govt to have this bill through. Against the presidents wishes.
And, I believe that the coalition fractured today with the Catholic Church in Uganda releasing a statement, saying it is not in support of the bill. I am not sure of the details, as yet, but, the Archbishop did have a statement out.
Not sure why you’re suprised that she/they’d respond and as they did. If she’s done any looking into this at all, she can see that total silence is a breeding ground for numerous comments and speculations.
My take on reading their response was that it was a very cordial “None of Your Business”. The addition of “It’s a Family Matter” is my own hopeful conjecture. I’ll hold to my hope, if that’s okay. (Also consider, that if this is Joyce Meyer’s first exposure to the entity: Warren Throckmorton, what’s her impression? I’ve now known you for years and am acquainted with your conservative side, but that side hasn’t been very visible at all for several months. What does/did Joyce or her ministry see that would compel her to bare her soul on this matter? If she did any looking at all, she saw a caricature…some Christian guy–a gay-friendly psychologist/activist with a website that regularly takes potshots at religious conservatives. That’s not necessarily a bad tag, by the way, BUT is it a tag that would make her eager to discuss things she may have shared in confidence?)
In the letter sent to Rick Warren and to Christianity Today, I believe they indicated that they also sent this letter to some others that they did not name. Given her strong connection, Joyce may have been one of the people they sent it to. When there is disagreement at the leadership level, some forthright communications are shared with a number of leaders so that the entire matter can be weighed out with more balance.
I realize that it’s been a number of years but I’ve travelled in Pentecostal circles and was impressed at times by how they handled ‘brush fires’. Where I was inclined to a ‘heads on…let’s take this bull by the horns’ approach, I often found a rational, reasoned and private response from the leaders…a quiet and sure trust that if they simply responded according to that ‘still small voice’ rather than to the very audible clamor, they could trust God to work out His best way in the end. There were many situations that were only discussed among leaders; as far as the flock, in general, was concerned…it was on a ‘need to know’ basis.
Not sure how ironic any of this is, but any assumptions may be wrong.
I was surprised that JJM responded at all if there was the kind of thing going on that you speculate about Eddy. It would seem reasonable to give that kind of information on background or off the record if that was going on. She may be in fact looking into it. I hope so.
I do know that she could present a powerful demonstration of what she teaches if she would.
Isn’t it ironic how, when we are in a feeding frenzy, we can assume comments from a ‘no comment’ response?
Could it be that Joyce Meyer is perhaps responding to this whole issue in an appropriate Christian manner…I’m paraphrasing but ‘if any one has ought against a brother, first go to him privately‘.
She’s got personal connections with some of the key players; perhaps she is addressing her concerns privately with them. And, just maybe, she has a definition of ‘private’ that actually means ‘private’…so her ministry graciously responds to your inquiry (very tactfully) with ‘we have no comment to offer’ you.
Let’s see now, a ‘no response’ comment from her ministry yielded a thread topic and already a handful of comments. Other ministry leaders (probably Rick Warren the most) have been beseiged by appeals, requests, and attacks. Did making public statements change that? Nah, we still put their words and motives under our microscope and pronounced our judgements as they best suited our personal biases.
Perhaps Joyce Meyer is hip to all that and is responding privately with any concerns she may have.
It does seem as if ministries compartmentalize their work in certain areas much as a business does. Commenting anything that might seem to be associated then only occurs within the strict confines of their ‘business’ or work. Unfortunately for gay people religious ties are more than likely not in their favor or even considered.
Where did I read that Lou Engle planning to take his sometimes anti-gay-slanted “The Call” to Uganda?
I wonder what is in their mission statment or bylines of “business”. What about Beth Moore or Kay Arthur? What do they have to say?
How disappointing. I wonder if others who have great influence in Uganda (such as Benny Hinn, T.D. Jakes, Creflo Dollar, and Andrew Wommack) would be more willing to speak to their Ugandan audience about this incredibly judgmental bill.