I have referred to this story several times. Seems like a fitting parable for our discussion.
The Blind Men and the Elephant
John Godfrey Saxe
It was six men of Hindustan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind)
That each by observation
Might satisfy the mind.
The first approached the Elephant
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side
At once began to bawl:
“Bless me, it seems the Elephant
Is very like a wall”.
The second, feeling of his tusk,
Cried, “Ho! What have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me ’tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear”.
The third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Then boldly up and spake:
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a snake.”
The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
“What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain,” quoth he;
“‘Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!”
The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: “E’en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!”
The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a rope!”
And so these men of Hindustan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right
And all were in the wrong.
So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!
DT, Thank you.
Quite right. But maybe … just maybe … someone listening in “with ears to hear” will be encouraged to take the next step that will open them to God’s intervention, whatever course that takes. That’s the hope that keeps us discussing.
Somebody somewhere is praying.
It is what it is. There are many ways of dealing with it. There are many things that go along with it sometimes and other times not. Some live according to it. Some acknowledge it in their mind and spirit but deny it in their flesh. Some accept it but don’t live according to it; others accept it and do live according to it; others don’t accept it and are at war with it. Let each one be convinced in their own mind. God will judge when the time comes. In the meantime, lets all practice that love/peace/joy/patience/kindness etc. What the words mean “and such were some of you” is up to each person to determine how plain or not plain that is, and what the “were” is referring to. I love the discussion but no one is going to change anyone’s mind. Only God can do that.
Debbie Thurman
With all the moral dilemmas we can face in any given period of time, it is a blessing to have the basic knowledge of what is right and wrong. I do not believe this can be achieved through human thoughts and desires, no matter how we try to rationalize them. To align our will with the will of God, and in my belief, through Jesus and what He taught, is a very good way to know the difference. To trust that belief is a process that is ongoing and often difficult but ultimately is liberating in all ways.
Agreed. I have enough trouble keeping my own fruit growing.
Yes indeed.
But we need to remind ourselves (or I do, anyway) that if I’m spending too much time as a fruit inspecter, looking for imperfections and flaws in the fruit of others, that my own fruit can get bitter and nasty.
Timothy, while this thread may have gone a little far afield in hairsplitting over “quid est veritas?” I do believe the discussion on truth is relevant to Warren’s post. For the record, I also believe there are multiple pathways to same-sex orientation. As for truth, we all see through the glass clearly on some days and not so clearly on others. I wasn’t implying that you cannot discern truth. In fact, I really didn’t disagree with you an anything you said. The point I was making is that truth is knowable to the extent that we are “abiding” in Christ or that his will is our will. We can’t know if that is the case for anyone but ourselves. We can only observe the spiritual “fruit” in one another’s lives.
Meh. Whatever.
The topic of the thread was that there may well be multiple paths to orientation and that we are all blinded by our own experiences and how we extrapolate them to the world around us. You countered in support of an “absolute truth” that is known by those who read the bible and have received the Holy Spirit. You then insinuated that because I disagree with you that I don’t fit into the second half of your criteria.
Now you think it best not to clarify that assertion. I don’t blame you; I wouldn’t want to go there either.
Ann, your grace humbles me. I can’t be the kind of teacher Christ was. He knew precisely how to get through, although he did realize not all would receive the message. I can only pray and hope for the Spirit to translate my frail words for another’s ears. The very same pastor I referenced above also once told me that he was amazed at the feedback he sometimes received after preaching. He thought he’d said one thing, but the Holy Spirit had taken a different message to someone’s heart. I like that. He knows what we need.
Thanks, Mary. I suppose I could have made it more clear. It’s that doggone elephant. Yes, PianoMan made a very good observation about perspective. I remember a former pastor who was an excellent counselor had a large sign with the word PERSPECTIVE over his office door. Smart.
Debbie – maybe I did miss your point but you have been more clear in your next post. Thank you.
However, I am more inline w/ PainoMan’s post.
I guess, I do take offense at the christians who go around touting that THEY and only They know the truth. Your previous post sounded kind of that way to me. I did misunderstand you.
Debbie Thurman,
Thank you very much for answering my question. I do understand what you are saying and appreciate the way you wrote it. I guess my thinking is just not as sophisticated as many on this blog when it comes to all the key phrases and terms. So often I hear or read words to describe Christianity in ways that I don’t really want to understand because these words and terms describe religion and not what Jesus taught, which is treasured up in my heart. When words are used to advance a religion based on human motivations rather than what Jesus taught, then those words are meaningless to me. If they are meaningless to me just imagine how many people don’t feel like they will ever be able to understand because the there is a wide gap between the person who is professing knowledge through phrases and words also assumes that everyone else should have the same level of understanding and the person listening feels innately as though they will never be able to join this exclusive club. Jesus taught using parables and through example – when He said “follow me”, people wanted to. It was pure and simple and uncomplicated and even those who did not feel worthy of redemption received it. Followers of the Christian religion do not have to compromise their values or beliefs to communicate and interact with others in a way that is more engaging. Allow them to feel they have a chance to understand and they just might want to 🙂
Debbie, this post is not directed at you personally at all and I appreciate you allowing me to say more than your considerate post warranted in a response.
If The Truth who is God is as Infinite as He in fact is, I should expect that the same Truth could be viewed from at least as many perspectives as there are points on the surface of the Earth. Take the Grand Canyon of Arizona for a small example. Pictures taken from both the North and South Rims at quarter mile intervals will all be from different perspectives, at different times of day (shadows, lighting), under different weather (humidity/smog), etc. but they will all be of the same canyon. And the Grand Canyon is of course changing.
We know God does not change; but each of us perceive God from our own unique perspective. Same for His Living Word and his Written Word and His Holy Spirit; none of them change; but they are all living and active nonetheless. So we will all perceive His Singular Image of male/authority/respect and female/power/love from differing unique perspectives. Now that’s a chasm that only God can bridge.
Timothy, at Warren’s request, we need to get this back on topic. Sorry. Just because a rabbit runs by doesn’t mean we have to go chasing it. I’m not a Pentecostal, so that should tell you what you need to know. Warren has posted a part 3, so maybe we should turn our attention to it. This one was rather self-explanatory anyway.
Debbie
Yes, you said “And how many of those have received the Holy Spirit?”
I didn’t address that because I wasn’t sure exactly what you meant. Different Christian traditions have different takes on receiving the Holy Spirit.
Did you mean invite the Holy Spirit into one’s life upon salvation and live under guidance and direction or did you mean the baptism of the Holy Ghost as evidence by speaking in tongues?
My apologies for furthering it though 🙂
@Warren,
I understand, but I didn’t start the tangent.
@Jayhuck: Again, this threatens to get so far off topic that we won’t be able to see the post. The point of the story was not to debate absolute truth or worldview relativity. It was designed to demonstrate a practical problem in understanding a topic, namely the causes of sexual orientation.
This is not the thread for debates over inerrancy. Most evangelicals assume it. To get into higher criticism, what the Bible is etc., is a worthy topic but not for this post.
Debbie,
You DO realize that all the words we have that are attributed to Jesus were written by MEN many years after his death? And translated after that many times over?
Not to mention everyone can and does interpret scripture differently? Hence the 2,000 + different Christian denominations in existence today.
Excuse me, Mary, but I never said that.
Another way of looking at “seeing clearly” is the result of being in God’s will. Jesus said in John 14, “Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.” Asking in his name is asking in accordance with his will, and yes, his truth. If we seek him, we will come into his presence and know his will. Truth will be made much clearer to us. Burdens will be lighter because we will also be yoked with Christ. Knowing God’s will and walking it out is a process.
I don’t think I’ve missed the point at all. I think you have.
Debbie – you missed the point.
Your words…
Many people stand in the presence of Christ and we still do not see eye to eye. I was trying to say in a nutshell that while we are standing there and learning – it is something WE (you included) are all doing. So saying that one is absolute in the truth at anyone time is a pretty tough statement to maintain.
Mary, what you have described is a deepening of your understanding, which is typically the result of believers yielding to the “Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not behold Him or know Him” (John 14: 17).”
And to answer your question, it changes you, not Scripture. Absolute truth is not something we “reach” or fully grasp in our lifetime. It simply is as God is.
How many times is Jesus, “the way, the truth and the life,” contrasted to Satan, the “father of lies” who “comes to kill, steal and destroy”? 1 John 3 contrasts the children of God with the children of Satan. It is a great bridging chapter, one that ought to help us live out the “ministry of reconciliation” (2 Cor. 5:18) as we love one another not “with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth” (1 John 3:19).
What Andrew Marin has done and written about in “Love Is an Orientation” is the ministry of reconciliation. Paul describes this ministry in 2 Cor. 6.
Yes, we are far from perfect, but Christ is the standard we look to emulate.
No offense but doesn’t it seem strange that soooo many people throughout history have made such claims that not all of them can be so accurate. While I admit that Jesus is the way and the truth, it seems to me that at different times in my life I will read scripture and suddenly a passage I’ve read many times, will open up to me in a way that it never had before. Does that change scripture? Or me??? Does it mean that if you and I are not on the “same page” with scripture that we are neither in the truth? I beleive that the living word is that – the living word that is constantly changing and transforming the lives who study, practice etc… and not one of us has reached perfection or absolute truth while here on this earth.
There was a second part to my statement, Timothy. This discussion is proving just how large this elephant is we are trying to describe.
Ann, I presume the spirit you refer to is gentleness and reverence. So, with gentleness toward you and others here and reverence for the truth that we all seek, I would say to be in the presence of Christ is to know him, to be in relationship with him. We accept him and the truth of his word by faith. “Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God” (Romans 10:17). Jesus is the Word incarnate.
If we are to know him, we need to know what he has said. It’s beneficial to know, for instance, that he prayed a crucial intercessory prayer for all believers, present and future, prior to his capture and crucifixion in John 17. He prayed that we would be one with him, just as he was with the Father. So, through prayer, meditating on the Word and daily living by faith, we come to know him. That’s all any of us can be assured of in this life. He also promised to send the Holy Spirit, the Helper and the One who comes alongside (Paraclete) to teach, rebuke and comfort all who accept his gift of redemption.
The Scriptures reference truth in a number of places. For example, Psalm 119: 160: “Thy word is truth;” John described Jesus in his gospel (John 1:14) as “full of grace and truth;” Jesus said in John 8:32, “The truth shall make you free;” In Ephesians 4:15, Paul tells believers to “speak the truth in love.” If we read the Word, we see that truth is something we are meant to grasp.
Does that answer your question?
ok, good – thanks Wendy!
Hi Ann,
I was actually just using the phrase that Debbie had used ….. so part of my question was hoping she would clarify what she meant by that as well.
Also, it would mean a lot if you could please answer me in the spirit of 1Peter, 3:15
Debbie and Wendy,
What do both of you mean by “standing in the presence of Christ?
@ Debbie,
Am I to understand your statement to mean that those who stand in the presence of Christ will all come to the same position on marriage?
I’m wondering, do you believe then that any Christian who supports gay marriage must not be standing in the presence of Christ? And if that is the case – what does that exactly mean to you?
LOL!!!!
Actually, I’m in charge of absolute truth! LOL!!
It is too funny that people still think they have the market on that.
Me.
Which I guess makes me the authority on absolute truth.
My statement, of course, referred to the common vernacular. It wasn’t a theological or philosophical observation. How many people both pray and read their Bibles today? And how many of those have received the Holy Spirit? That number has a distinct relationship with how many understand absolute truth.
If you are the sort of person who stands in the presence of Christ, you are going to see pretty clearly. You are also likely to understand the lock and key mechanism with which C.S. Lewis illustrates the “one flesh” concept of marriage in “Mere Christianity.”
Thank you David – it doesn’t get much better than C.S. Lewis – the Talmud says something similar – we don’t see things as they are, rather, we see things as we are.
@ Tim and Debbie:
“Absolutism applied to the sanctity of life, to torture, to marriage, to human rights…it is strange that in a pluralistic system, absolutism is “turned on and off;” it is unclear to me what the criteria is for the application of absolutism.”
We are clearly a county of absolutes…our moral authority within our political aspirations are fueled by such absolutes…always.
“”Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good
of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live
under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies.
The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may
at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good
will torment us without end for they do so with the approval
of their own conscience.” C.S. Lewis
Warren…how about this C.S. Lewis quote as an absolutists view of Truth:
“”What you see and hear depends a good deal on where you are standing: it also depends on what sort of person you are.”
— C.S. Lewis
Thanks guys…for keeping me more thoroughly engaged.
Absolute truth is more of an archaic concept today. Rarely does one speak of anything but relative truth, which is an oxymoron.
Unfortunately, for all sides,
“absolute truth” is always defined as “that which I believe”
“the authority of Scripture” is always tempered by “interpreted as I believe”.
@ Wendy,
Thanks for your interest…
I was speaking about the debate here at this site…I am a bit frustrated.
@ David,
I want to be sure I am following you here ….. Can you tell me what you mean when you say, “We’re doing our part” ?
When you say that you’re not sure it can be done with construction on one side …. are you suggesting those who hold to absolute truth have been building a bridge but the other side -the pluralistic side – has not?
@ Jayhuck,
perhaps we can apply the parable of the blind men and the elephant to the term: fundamentalism. :).
@ Wendy,
a worthy question…some chasms cannot be bridged…I am not sure that it can be done with construction on one side.
Recognizing that absolutist systems exist and that they have value and are adaptive is at odds with the values of the current pluralistic value system.
Absolutism applied to the sanctity of life, to torture, to marriage, to human rights…it is strange that in a pluralistic system, absolutism is “turned on and off;” it is unclear to me what the criteria is for the application of absolutism.
The bridge needs to be built from both sides…we’re doing our part.
David,
Have you ever heard of the idea of our inner shadow. Deepak Chopra looks at this in his book, The Third Jesus. Often the image we project outward is quite different, even opposite to, that what our inner experience is.
@ David
Is there not the call for humility even within the most fundamental absolutism of faith? Some seem to collapse humility into subjectivity and relativism….
What, if any, ways do you see that the unavoidable chasm can be bridged other than shouting across?
Debbie,
I believe in absolute truth and the authority of scripture too, but I’ll bet we define those things differently!
@ Debbie…
It is this quandary I wished to highlight…
As fundamentalists have constructed Christianity, it is absolutist, hierarchical and exclusive.
Fundamentalists will repeatedly get rapped in a pluralistic society for this system…when we were in oppressive societies, we called it persecution for the faith.
Our views, and persecution, were foreshadowed by the persecutions of the Jews by the Romans and Babylonians.
This is the chasm, the unavoidable chasm, that we shout across…
Christian fundamentalism, in the form I was raised, excluded Episcopalians, Catholics and Some Presbyterians…certainly Congregationalists and Unitarians.
So applying the subjective search for the truth, in the face of Absolute Demands for Holiness (and unlimited supplies of Grace) is a real dilemma…
…and it colors, even subtly, our attitude toward to research on SSA.
Last time I checked, Joe Nicolosi’s Reparative Drive Theory was not part of Absolute Truth ;).
Uh-oh. You would have to use the term Christian fundamentalism. Quite a loaded term that means different things to different people. Even more confusing since you also mentioned the “fundamental absolutism” of your faith. I’ve been called a fundie by gay activists more times than I care to remember. So what am I? I believe in absolute truth and the authority of Scripture — all of it.
Sooo true.
In keeping with how religion impacts psychology I make the following point:
This story is told by the Buddhists, Hindus, Sufis and Jainists (see Wikipedia)…it is an eastern view of truth.
A western view of truth…of absolute truth…colors our conflict with NARTH, with HRC and with Christian Fundamentalism…
Wisdom is not the same as psychology…although psychology seeks the wisdom in eastern religious practice (and often criticizes the practices of evangelical Christians…and the wisdom in that Faith).
I love this story too…but it is a humble view of truth that is at odds with the fundamental absolutism of my faith.