This New York Times Magazine article defies summary in a blog post but I wanted to provide the link because it quotes extensively many of the major researchers on female sexuality.
Here are some excerpts:
Meredith Chivers is a creator of bonobo pornography. She is a 36-year-old psychology professor at Queen’s University in the small city of Kingston, Ontario, a highly regarded scientist and a member of the editorial board of the world’s leading journal of sexual research, Archives of Sexual Behavior. The bonobo film was part of a series of related experiments she has carried out over the past several years. She found footage of bonobos, a species of ape, as they mated, and then, because the accompanying sounds were dull — “bonobos don’t seem to make much noise in sex,” she told me, “though the females give a kind of pleasure grin and make chirpy sounds” — she dubbed in some animated chimpanzee hooting and screeching. She showed the short movie to men and women, straight and gay. To the same subjects, she also showed clips of heterosexual sex, male and female homosexual sex, a man masturbating, a woman masturbating, a chiseled man walking naked on a beach and a well-toned woman doing calisthenics in the nude.
What she found was that women were aroused by all of the videos, whereas men reacted based on sexual preference. The conscious ratings more closely tracked sexual preference but their bodies and minds were often out of sync.
When she peers into the giant forest, Chivers told me, she considers the possibility that along with what she called a “rudderless” system of reflexive physiological arousal, women’s system of desire, the cognitive domain of lust, is more receptive than aggressive. “One of the things I think about,” she said, “is the dyad formed by men and women. Certainly women are very sexual and have the capacity to be even more sexual than men, but one possibility is that instead of it being a go-out-there-and-get-it kind of sexuality, it’s more of a reactive process. If you have this dyad, and one part is pumped full of testosterone, is more interested in risk taking, is probably more aggressive, you’ve got a very strong motivational force. It wouldn’t make sense to have another similar force. You need something complementary. And I’ve often thought that there is something really powerful for women’s sexuality about being desired. That receptivity element. At some point I’d love to do a study that would look at that.”
This sounds like it could come from a Focus on the Family brochure. There are differences between men and women which Evangelicals believe come from a differential origin and function. For Chivers, the data lead her to think that the biological differences prompt men and women to bring complementary drives to the connection.
The article concludes with lengthy descriptions of how women are different than men. The theorists seem to converge on the notion that women want to be wanted. This concept has some perhaps unsettling implications for ex-gay marriages as well as for marriage where the spark seems to have gone out.
Carole,
I realize that this conversation needs more depth between you and I. I have requested that Warren give my e-mail address to you so we can communicate in private. I hope that is okay. Somethings I do not share in mixed company or public – ever. But for our conversation – I think a private discussion can help straighten out what we are both trying to say???
Carole,
I have known women who use their sexual prowess to achieve some ends. That kind of power (although it does exist) is not what I am talking about. That is a cheap thrill and easy to come by but many women will mistaken it for power. I have such a sister who used to compete (if you will) with me and my other sister in her ability to get men to “behave” a certain way. Well, that’s not how I roll and I don’t find such male/female relationships like that to be at all interesting.
Being controlled by someone who loves you and respects you is far different than abandoning self to a dangerous person or situation – even if that danger is fantasy – because I am a believer in what happens in fantasy happens in real life.
I think about the Songs of Solomon. To be without guard, and controlled by another is wonderful. That is trust and intimacy.
In many ways, that is the way we are to be with God. Allowing him to have his way in our lives.
Mary,
Point well taken. I remember all too well a “dirty old man” I once worked with who flat out said that women who wore skirts too short were “asking for it”. He went on to explain that he really believed that.
It IS a fantasy, and if you’ll look at my post, (2:42 pm) I corrected my own language in the second paragraph. I said I like your word “control” better.
I will add that I do agree with you that it is also about trust. In some way, I guess I didn’t even feel the need to say that because any fantasy I’d have has to involve trust just as a real relationship does.
However, I will stick with my use of the word power, but offer a clarification. The kind of power I am talking about is the power of being desired or the power of desiring, not some kind of power gained by physical force.
The use of the words captive and captor are yes, in the fantasy literal (that’s why it’s a fantasy!) but much more importantly, symbolic–the woman is at the same time “captivated” by the man (desires him) and he is captivated by her (desires her). The two words are interchangeable, actually. The captor is captivated and the captivated becomes a captor (emotionally speaking).
I think the researcher is basically thinking that a woman gets turned on thinking about turning on a guy. I call that “power,” but I understand that you might not like that description or feel as I do.
So, it’s hard to tell because words are getting in the way–maybe we are far apart, but maybe not.
Carter Heyward who is sort of a lesbain theologian (whatever) anyhow states it quite clearly what many women (of alternative lifestyle have heard over and over again) “What she really needs is a good f—!” All too often, even today, and unfortunately still in places like FOTF etc… that will be intonated. They may not use the word but the message is very clear. And women do not want that – when she says no – she means NO.
That is why I am correcting Carole and getting down to specifics when we talk about “control and be overtaken” in the sense of sexuality and the act of intimacy.
I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT RAPE SCENARIOS OR BONDAGE, VIOLENT ACTS OR VIOLENT THEMES.
Pathia, good for you!!!
@Mary
That DOES happen, and someone tried to do it to me, but he was drunk and freaked out when he found out I didn’t have what he errr expected. That gave me enough time to strike back and get away to a more public place before he could recover. It was only an ‘attempt’ and it scars me to this day, I can’t even imagine what my life would be like if I hadn’t gotten away.
Wait for some man to stroll in here, use that fantasy as justification to rape a lesbian (calling it what she really wants and needs!)
That’s the scarey part about talking about sex. Someone who knows nothing about women will take this way out of the realm and context in which it is meant.
Keep in mind that women who fantasize and want to be controlled don’t want to be raped ( they are truly different scenarios) The other is that most of us do not want strangers in the fantasy and only want our boyfriend or husband (not just some guy who thinks he can rape a women into heterosexuality, submission, desire or love)
For me the control is not about power but rather being able to trust someone with my body completely and enjoying that trust and physical sensation.
So Carole, my view is different than yours. Rape and bondage were not what I was talking about. I personally do not have rape fantasies and would put those in the category of a nightmare. However, you may not. I said controlled or overtaken. It’s not that I get some power in the end ….it’s that I get to truly relax and enjoy the intimacy with a man that is in charge, does love me, and can be trusted. BIG DIFFERENCE. My fantasy does not have violence or violent themes. I’m not sure where you picked up the idea that that is what I wrote???
Oh, I remembered something, and in fact, don’t know how I could have forgotten it. The fantasy of the man being the captive and the woman his captor is also quite common. STill, the theme is the same–the one doing the fantasizing, in this case, the woman, is the one who is controlling the other by her desirousness. It’s kind of a woman’s warrior fantasy. He wants nothing to do with her, he has been taken by her “tribe” but eventually, he is so overtaken by her that he melts and is quite the performer. The finishing touch (because this is a woman’s fantasy, after all) is that she falls for him and he for her.
I have to think that these fantasies of both men and women must, at their root, be the same–the fantasizer constructs a story in which he/she is so alluring that either the captive or the captor(depending on the plot) is transformed into someone who meets the woman’s sexual and emotional needs.
So, when I saw those young girls in my class who weren’t paying attention to the discussion of trancendentalism, I pretty much knew what they were thinking! LOL.
Oh, I know it is real, I have them as well. I just didn’t want to state it first to be honest, because on this blog people likely highly vary in whether the consider me male or female. I’d be curious to see if men, straight/gay/bi etc have rape fantasies (With them as the object, no the perpetrator rather) as well.
BTW, I forgot to point out that my post about the common fantasy reinforces what I said previously about a woman loving to be desired. As I said, evolution gave us not a strong body, but a desired body. That’s power.
The “rape ” or the “bondage fantasy” is real. Have had it, have spoken to many women about it, the first time way back in college. The first time I had the fantasy was when I was a kid, 11 or so. It’s common.
I think Mary’s use of the word “overtaken” is much more on target. The major point that most people fail to talk about when they point out this fantasy, is that in the fantasy, the man doing the controlling winds up being controlled by the woman. In other words, the fantasy is about our power–a man is so overcome by desire for us he resorts to force! That’s a powerful image for a woman. The man, while very masculine and aggressive, is really putty–it is the woman’s power that has lured him. It’s not at all unlike the mariner hearing the siren’s call which he can’t resist. Yeah, he’s shipwrecked.
Furthermore, the woman’s fantasy almost always ends with the man realizing that he has not only been physically overcome by desire, but that now he is emotionally bound to her–he’s crazy about her!!! You see, it’s both about powerlessness and power.
It is not at all about a woman’s lack of power–just the opposite!
I failed out of engineering school, computer science and went into Economics/Business instead. So, I wouldn’t say ‘science and math’ are my strong points. I do helpdesk work in IT, however I am not there for my technical skills. I am there because of my ‘people skills’. In general the folks working my job are…well…I would label almost ALL of them as lightly asperger’s *laugh* They lack people skills…entirely.
So, I am damage control so to speak, because I can speak to anyone from a low level employee to a general manager who makes 10x more than I do with no issues what so ever.
I honestly would suspect I fall in the middle, men and women are both completely alien to me, to be honest the only reason I am ‘female’ in the real world is because the real world holds you at gun point. If it was possible to identify and live as ‘other’ or some sort of third gender, that would be my ideal. However, living that kind of life in today’s society can lead to fairly traumatic events if not even death, because everyone else still thinks in completely binary terms.
I think it would be instructive if they could hook up women to that thing and let them go about their business for a few days. That might tell them more than putting them in front of a computer screen.
I said, “I want to stress that women love to be desired.”
Pathia asked,
I don’t know. We know little enough about the brain as it is. Accounting for the brain of a genetic anomaly is even more difficult. Where would you place your brain when it comes to delineating it as “male” or “female” in terms of attractions and in terms of feelings? IIRC, you spoke of your cognitive strengths–science, math, right? Cognitive function in those areas, though, are not rare enough to be an anomaly.
Isn’t the whole idea of a “non-genetic” man or woman the idea that brain and body often don’t “match”?
@Mary
I believe that is flowery language discussing the fact that people have rape fantasies.
Read the full article again, I actually missed the transwoman section it was so brief. I really can’t comment, there’s so little informat in there. Where were they in transition, post-op pre-op, what kind of hormones, how long had they been taking them? Every single one of those variables I think would matter. I know it’s been shown that a MTF or FTM’s brain will become indistinguishable from their chosen gender after being on hormones long enough, but it doesn’t happen overnight.
Carole,
Totally agree with you in the power of sex and sexuality. That is always enticing and has it’s own aphrodisiatic qualities in itself. . However, you have heard that something like 60% of women fantasize about being “overtaken, controlled” etc..? Not sure what that is about though.
I also see absolutely nothing about bisexuals in the report. Which means none of it applies to me, but then, ‘bisexuals don’t exist’ to so many researchers it seems.
Same brain response as what, men, women? I would honestly suspect them to be like neither.
@Pathia:
According to the Times article, MtF transwomen did not have the same brain response. Having said that, I suspect many men also want to be attractive to their partners but apparently the brain response is very specific in men but not so in women.
I want to stress that women love to be desired.
How do you explain this behavior in non-genetic women then?
I have to wonder again if they’re using a penile plethysmograph. I don’t know how anyone could get aroused with that thing strapped on and I know plenty of men who can feel ‘aroused’ without actually having an erection. It’s not an off-on switch, despite how much we like to joke about such things.
Warren said,
I want to stress that women love to be desired. I don’t know why this should come as any surprise to someone past the age of youthful rebellion “against the patriarchal forces of humanity” as strident feminists and some silly social scientists might put it. (I was a liberal once, in my youth!)
Apply the precepts of evolution to this thought, and I don’t know why any person with even a thin knowledge of it should be mystified by it. Let’s face it, women were not given the bone structure nor the musculature of such a heavy frame to go after the guy and yank him by the head of the hair back to the cave. We evolved to enjoy power of a different sort.
I read this article a few days ago and had to laugh as I always do with such studies. In the past, the researchers who had hooked up men and women to all sorts of apparatuses to measure arousal were men. It made sense to me that they were confused by women’s reactions to visual stimuli. However, I admit to being a bit dumbstruck by a woman researcher’s perplexity.
Actually, this is very interesting, but I think women could tell you that they don’t have to see a good-looking man, clothed or not, to let their mind wander to wonderful thoughts.
Maybe we are simply more imaginative than men. I”ve never seen bonobos getting it on, and it certainly doesn’t sound enticing, but I do know that it doesn’t take much to get a woman’s mind thinking about touching, thinking especially about being touched, thinking about intimacy, and yes, thinking about all that leading to raw desire. My guess is that those women saw the bonobos for a split second, and after that, their “mind’s eye” was someplace else, even though they were staring at a screen full of feisty primates.
From the article:
Absolutely agree. A woman feels her power when she feels desired. “I am desired” is a passive construction but paradoxically, there is great power in that passivity, as women know. Being desired leads to desiring. Make sense? (This second point, does not, I must add, mean that a woman’s desire always springs from being desired first, but it’s a heck of a lot of fun.)
So, I don’t see why the surprise at what stimulates women. It’s simple. For the same reason we don’t need to see a lot of skin revealed by men (as they seem to need at times), we don’t need much at all to get our imaginations rolling, and what gets our brains rolling might just be images of touching. We women are tactile; we love to “receive touching ” (passive again). That is why words from men don’t mean as much as men might think. A touch, the right touch, often means much, much more. We like a gentle, unexpected touch–a brush on the cheek, a finger moving a lock of hair off our foreheads, a gentle squeeze of the the arm, or shoulder, a finger trailing the throat or the back of the neck…those are the kinds of things that cause a stirring.
Imagination–it’severything. All we need is the suggestion that a touch is around the corner. I know, I know, not a very scientific explanation, but I don’t think you’d find too many women who’d disagree with me.
I get it. It just smacks of the same old same old. While I see some merits to her thinking? there is more going on. There was a time when anthropologists who studied varying primate groups, societies etc… only defined the females in terms of age, how many births, etc… without any other function to the group. Since women have joined that field of study more has been presented in terms of a primate female’s role and contribution. Having said that, I think there is so much more to sex than just being passively wanted and interested.
@Mary: When you do, take into account that these are female researchers primarily following their data. You cannot dismiss this with ideological bias. Their research methods actually help overcome some self-report biases among their participants.
Okay – first of all – people are people and we have a larger social pool of experiences in which to choose and fit and join or leave. Okay – nuff.
Oh brother! Will comment more when I have time to cool off.