UPDATE: Joe Wurzelbacher held a news conference this morning at his Holland, Ohio home. Holland is about 8 miles from Toledo.
In a prior post, I referenced a conversation between a plumber and Obama on a campaign stop in Toledo Ohio. The questioner’s name was Joe Wurzelbacher and he has gotten a bit of attention surrounding the YouTube video. An advocacy group Family Security Matters secured an interview with Mr. Wurzelbacher and I think it is worth the read. Mr. Wurzelbacher seems thoughtful and expresses many concerns many conservatives and small business owners have about the Obama tax plan. Here are some excerpts:
At a recent campaign appearance in Ohio, Sen. Obama was approached by plumber Joe Wurzelbacher, who has concerns about Obama’s proposed tax policies. FamilySecurityMatters.org’s Pam Meister had a candid conversation with him about his experience.
PAM MEISTER: You recently met Sen. Obama on the campaign trail in Ohio, and you asked him a question about his tax policies. What exactly was your question for him?
JOE WURZELBACHER: Initially, I started off asking him if he believed in the American Dream and he said yes, he does – and then I proceeded to ask him then why he’s penalizing me for trying to fulfill it. He asked, “what do you mean,” and I explained to him that I’m planning on purchasing this company – it’s not something I’m gonna purchase outright, it’s something I’m going to have to make payments on for years – but essentially I’m going to buy this company, and the profits generated by that could possibly put me in that tax bracket he’s talking about and that bothers me. It’s not like I would be rich; I would still just be a working plumber. I work hard for my money, and the fact that he thinks I make a little too much that he just wants to redistribute it to other people. Some of them might need it, but at the same time, it’s not their discretion to do it – it’s mine.
Regarding Obama’s statement that he didn’t want to punish success:
PM: …taxing small businesses making $250,000 and above is going to help the people “behind you.” And yes, “spreading the wealth around.” How did you feel about that?
JW: As soon as he said it, he contradicted himself. He doesn’t want to “punish” me, but – when you use the word “but,” you pretty much negate everything you just said prior to that. So he does want to punish me, he does want to punish me for working harder to – you know, my big thing is the American Dream. I work hard. You know, I was poor; my mom raised me and my brother by herself for a very long time until my dad came along. So I know what it’s like to suffer. It’s not like I was born with a silver spoon. Usually it was a wooden spoon and it was on my butt. It was just a contradiction of terms, what he said: he doesn’t want to punish me but he wants to redistribute my wealth. And what I mean when I say my wealth, I mean the collective. Eventually – I mean, just to sound a little silly here, but you need rich people. I mean, who are you going to work for?
PM: Do you fear this is the possibility of America turning more down the socialist road if Obama does become elected and if he is able to implement these policies?
JW: Very much so. You start giving people stuff, and then they start expecting it – and that scares me. A lot of people expect it now. They get upset when their check’s late, they get upset when they don’t get as many benefits as they used to, or when different government agencies are cut or spending is cut here and there for whatever reason – people get upset at that. And that’s because they’re used to getting it and they want more. I mean, everyone’s always gonna want more. People work the system left and right to get more out of welfare, to get more out of state assistance, federal assistance. And if government’s there for them, they’re gonna keep on trying to manipulate it to get more out of it. You got people that come along and say, “Hey, I wanna help you people,” I mean, they’re all ears! They’re like, “Hey, you can help me more, I don’t have to work as hard, I don’t have to do as much, and you’re gonna give me this? Man, that’s great, you’re a good guy.”
I hope McCain or Bob Schieffer raises again Mr. Wurzelbacher’s questions. Like central planning and wealth re-distribution or not, we need to hear more from Mr. Obama about his economic philosophy.
andrew mickel wrote:
“I consider myself somewhat of a socialist, but not hardcore. I think everyone making over $50 000 pa should not get a tax break, instead they should get a tax increase. if you make that much money, you already have all you need taken care of, which means the rest of the money is spent wastefully. why should some people live in a basement, while others have 5 houses?”
That is a simplistic view of the problem. What about if they are a family of 10 with 2 down syndrome kids? Wow, thats goes your 50K down the drain. Who do you think is better off, this family or a family of 2 making 30K? Who are you to decide what other people need or don’t need?
They live in a basement either because they are disable (in wich case they deserve help) or because they don’t want to work as hard as other people(that are the one I have a problem with).
If you guys admite you are all socialists including the leadership of the Democratic party, I’ll then agree that we disagree. But when you trying to convince me that black is white and red is blue, I have problems swallowing that.
Sorry I was away a little bit.
Phil from London, I think Evan answer you for me. Thank you Evan.
Now, Evan, I also lived in a socialist country. You are right in some points, but I don’t agree on others.
I will say anybody who impose a wealth re-distribution is talking socialism. You can call it whatever you want. I think it is simplistic to put all the ex-socialist countries in the same basket. There were a lot of differents “flavors” of socialism. From the mild socialism in Germany to the hard core criminal of Pol Pot.
Not all the socialism countries were real socialist and certainly not all that pursued the socialist ideal ended up implementing real socialism. There are that examples as Germany or Poland or Hungary where you could have some type of private ownership. That alone is not a real socialism because the goverment didn’t own all the means of production. Also, comunism was never reached by any of those countries, Communism is the last stage in the Socialism path, where even money will not be neccessary.
You said I’m in a stage of panic. You might be right, but if you are a trend following and a pattern recognition mind, you will find a lot of common grounds between Obama and the Democratic party and the principles of Socialism. I wish I’m wrong for the sake of all human kind. The fall of the USA under a Socialist rule will be the end of all liberties in the rest of the world.
Who do you think own AIG? their stockholders? Think again 79.9 percentage is own by the US goverment. What do you think is the Obama plan on Health Care, What about his education plan? Don’t you see a pattern and a trend?
American values are being transformed as we speak. Wait a little longer and the whites will be a minority. No that I’m against immigration or I’m a racist. The problem is that immigrants are not asimilating in the melting pot, on the contrary, America is disolving in the soup. This country is always more and more distant of what you call “Protestant values”. The media and Hollywood are acconplices on that matter. How many real conservatives are lefting? Very few. Obama and the Democratic party are using the “good old” class war and rellying in the low human feeling called envy. Just like recently Hugo Chavez did in Venezuela, people voted against the tradittional parties, and they got something worse.
“Progressive taxation” is progressive bankruptcy. The goverment will distributing the “fiscal burden” in the people who actualy pay taxes and will give money to their electoral base via earnest money to people who don’t pay a dime. I again ask you to search history of taxation in the US. and plot it in a graph % vs Time. You will be suprised how steep the line is growing and at what rate. The most amazing part is people are not aware of that.
I’m glad you have a flat tax system I wish we have something like that. I wish we adopt the fair tax system where politicians will get a lot more trouble getting away with their “personal projects”. Do you actually read the whole bail out document. Do you realize it cover environmental issues among other bribes nothing to do with the real problem of the banking and financial industries. About loosers and winners, you should read my opinion several post up. I’ll tell you again, looser is the one who is not trying. I know lot of people who have money but are a bunch of loosers. We have decades of trowing money to the “less favored” in the form of welfare. Yet the problem is still there, they going from generation after generation in the same hole, it doesn’t matter how much money you give to them. They have learned how to play the game very well. We have created a bunch of parasites who don’t have any aspirations in life other than going day after day with the less effort.
I think you are missing the point about people and their motivations. Who do you think were the leaders of the bolchevique revolution? The workers? the farmers? Who do you think Marx and Engels were? Blue collard workers? I don’t know what motivate people like for example George Soros to try to end the system who made himself what he is. Could be some kind of vendatta for the Budapest revolt the CIA didn’t help at the end? Could be anything from personal motives to more darker ones. I don’t know. I know that when somebody uses the power of the goverment to take from one to give to other, it is wrong and nobody will ever know where it will end. For God sake, have you guys forgetting what is the cause we are no longer British? TAXES!!!!!!
I consider myself somewhat of a socialist, but not hardcore. I think everyone making over $50 000 pa should not get a tax break, instead they should get a tax increase. if you make that much money, you already have all you need taken care of, which means the rest of the money is spent wastefully. why should some people live in a basement, while others have 5 houses?
obviously joe is a selfish guy. he doesnt want to start a business unless he is guaranteed to make more than $250g? what a joke. he wont even settle for 200. im going to guess he is religious too. isnt greed against christianity?
FAC,
You need to put some meat on those arguments that the Democratic candidate is a socialist or that he will lead USA to socialism, otherwise it all sounds like it’s panic time, whether interested or not.
First of all, any country that pursued the “socialist ideal” ended up implementing real socialism, which was communism = state ownership. I’ve never heard any of the candidates even hinting at this possibility, let alone seriously proposing anything to this effect (barring some necessary and temporary measures to fight the current crisis). It would be suicidal to their campaign, given America’s past and present as the brand of capitalism in the world. There’s no point in going backwards, when other countries which used to rely on state-controlled economies are now moving towards allowing more space for competition and private involvement. In my opinion, a socialist mentality is never going to thrive in the USA, which is a country primarily built on Protestant values (you should put Karl Marx to rest and read more Max Weber).
Progressive taxation, which is a social democrat type of policy in the modern sense (not a socialist policy), doesn’t mean that the state will increase its share of GDP or that it will control the market forces. It means that it will redistribute the fiscal burden on different shoulders and/or differently on the same shoulders. That’s not socialism. How could it be considering that public revenue in the US as a percentage of GDP is a lot smaller than in most developed capitalist countries (~27%, compared to most European countries, where the level of levied taxes goes beyond 35% of GDP)?
I live in a country with a flat tax system and I think it’s very good for public finances because it reduces operating costs to a great degree. I’m on equal footing with big companies on direct taxation basis, but are we really equal players? They can afford to operate offshore and save more money than most wage earners will ever make. Are they doing it because of the gross unfairness of the taxation system? Duh – not! More capital means more means to multiply it, more fancy lifestyles, more ambitions, more of what we know human nature to be when it gets more. I’m not a left-wing animal but I don’t like this way of looking at people only as losers and winners. The most striking attitude that you and a few other have shown here is considering people only from an economic point of view. I won’t criticise this attitude, because I think it’s part of the problem right now with the status quo and it will die by itself. Think about having shy kids and watching them compete against less hard-working or smart kids who are more outgoing. Your kids will be so anxious sometimes that they may underperform compared to the kids who use best their endowment without much hesitation. So this winners-losers equation is really missing the point about people’s potentials. You have to ask yourself what makes a loser a loser and a winner a winner before jumping to conclusions. Unless you think that they are born losers. People are not born the same, that’s for sure, but can we integrate more and more of them? I think that is far more important than just bickering over who should pay a bit more or get a bit more. The future is about increasing inclusion and interaction, and reducing self-centredness; you seem to focus on yourself in your arguments.
Secondly, both McCain and Obama are well-off enough to not be suspected of having a socialist mindset. I don’t see how Obama, who is making millions from selling his books right now, could really believe in state ownership and greater state intervention in the economy. You can call him aloof, unexperienced, elitist, but not socialist. Personally, if I were Joe the Plumber I would have insisted more on what his opinion is on the flat tax. He got away too easily on that question.
Phil from London,
I’ve lived under a communist regime in Eastern Europe and I have to tell you that you couldn’t be more wrong. Socialism being imposed or not, it doesn’t make the system any better than it never was. What happened was quite simple: it didn’t work out in economic terms, it collapsed. Products were not competitive on the international markets, so they were shipped on the markets of partner countries from the communist bloc, based on bilateral agreements, or disposed of in dumping practices. Productivity was low because there was not enough competition to allow innovation and creation of higher value-added goods. I could go on about this for the next few weeks, but I will say that in general, living conditions were poor, information was controlled and there was very little freedom. You won’t be enjoying the same cool lifestyle listening to the music you like, meeting the people you want, travelling wherever you need to. The party controls what comes in the country, what is being sold, whom you are not allowed to meet. There was never any “socialism” anywhere, it always fails to deliver and degenerates into communism and totalitarianism. You end up living in a controlled country, dreaming about being free one day. Don’t listen to the sirens, they are illusions of wellbeing.
Maybe if you lived your entire life in a capitalist country, you are fed up with the massive scale individualism and indifference that alienates people and you find life is drawn to where it can thrive, to the exotic places you’ve never been before. Maybe I, having lived under that regime, find the newfound freedom a lot more attractive than it really is. But you can compare the facts: how people lived in a “socialist” republic and how people live in a capitalist country, whether it’s a monarchy or a republic. In a communist country, the working class lived far better than the economy afforded, but were still poorer than most of the workers in your country. You think there was a greater feeling of fairness? People who worked using their intellect were not so favoured by the regime, which ideologically supported blue collars and suspected the more intellectually capable of being able to think for themselves, criticising handling of public issues and plotting against the party. But there was a feeling that being smarter or more capable didn’t pay more, unless you became one of the party yes-men, siding with the nomenklatura of oppressors.
Let’s not talk about socialism with Sweden in mind. It’s a 9-milion people country, which is a lot less than what you’ve got in the metropolitan area of London or Paris. They have been moving away from the welfare state policies for many decades now, anyway. Socialism is a false theme in this US election, in my opinion, created by fear-mongering and used for fear-mongering.
Funny how FAC keeps on mentioning USSR as an example of a collapsed country. FAC, you do know that in the USSR no individual paid any tax at all, right?
USSR fell primarily for three reasons: 1) Oil prices went down; 2) Arms race got too expensive for them as a result of the oil prices going down and 3) people got fed up with being told what to do by a party that killed so many of their compatriots and threw them out of the power.
Socialism is just the next step of the man’s evolution. No wonder the greatest quality of life can be found in the countries that evolved into socialist societies themselves, not through imposition of others.
Allot of people here completely miss the point of the entire argument…. (how typical a small slice of people so well represent the overall stupidity of the population). Joe’s far less worried about a tax increase than he is ~any~ administration holding him upside down and shaking more of ~HIS~ hard earned money and giving it away.
I hope Obama wins… and I can’t wait to see even more business move overseas.
idiots
…sheesh
M.
Sarah wrote:
“…Mitt Romney even declared today that he did not believe Obama should be labeled a Socialist…”
Sarah, I really don’t care what Mitt Rodney says, I think for myself and don’t need nobody to draw conclusions for me. Mitt Rodney can think and say whatever he thinks, it is his right. However let me show you a quote from wikipedia ( I really don’t want to bother you with “The Capital” by Marx.)
“Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital, and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.[1]”
“Some socialists advocate complete nationalization of the means of production, distribution, and exchange; while others advocate state control of capital within the framework of a market economy. Social democrats propose selective nationalization of key national industries in mixed economies combined with tax-funded welfare programs”
Are you telling me this isn’t what Obama is talking about? Are you telling me that spread the welath arround isn’t this? That scares me how close to this definition is the Democratic party of today. It scares me that your party have chosen a guy who is the leader in that matter.And what scares me the most is how many people believe in this crap. If you don’t think our society is going down this path, think again. Do a research on the new goverment regulations, fees, and new taxes for the last 50 years. Every time a democratic (I means party, because by definition, I don’t think your party is that anymore) goverment is elected is when the goverment grows and take more control. New agencies are created with a new army of bureocrats to decide on our lives. I deduct by your comments you like and desire this kind of goverment where everything will be regulated and all problems solved via endless litigations. You like and welcome more taxes for your fellow countrymen in order to pay others “less affortunated”. You think it is best for the country that goverment take everytime more control and grow more. You have the right to think that and to defend your oppinion. However, let me tell you that “socialist” experiment hasn’t worked in any place in the world.
Sarah wrote:
“Her hunger to drill for oil instead of investing time into sources of alternative energy is a huge political position and one that, again, I find myself in gross contrast with”
I believe that McCain is talking about drilling for oil, building new nuclear plants, invest more in alternative fuels, including solar, wind, geo, etc. The only thing different is you guys don’t want to drill in any place. No because we don’t need oil, but because you want to destroy “evil big oil companies”, Isn’t that right? What republicans are tellingi s that all infrastructure for oil is in place and we have the reserves right here. We have no time to wait until all wind mill are in place and online. Let alone the cost to implement those technologies is very high compared to what we already have. Do you know Cuba is leasing to China and other countries drilling licences to drill just a few miles off the coast of Florida? Do you know they will use horizontal drilling? what means they will be sucking oil from under our feets.Do you think China and the cubans will be more concerned with the environment than us? So, if they will do it, why you guys are so reluctant to let US companies to tap in that reserves? Can you give me an logical explanation why. It doesn’t make any sense at all unless your motives are to destroy our industry because they represent evil “Bush administration”?
Sarah wrote:
“The lady, and I believe her running mate as well, wants personal power with very little actual desire to be a humble Public Servant.”
And your guy and your party isn’t? What you call humble public servant? Only to the democrtas? Give me a break.
Sarah wrote:
“How dare she go out in public with a Polar Bear pin attached to her lapel when she is known to aim at restricting their protection and destroying their habitat.”
How she even dare to think about running for VP? That is the question you guys are really thinking. How she dare to do what she do. How close you thinking is from a totalitarist. You guys really think whoever think different is a moron? Dissenting is not a word in your dictionary? I know you guys rather see everybody running bicycles than disturbing poor polar bear habitat.
Sarah wrote:
“Quick, someone develop a Hybrid Snowmobile so she can be swayed!”
I bet you drive a toyota prius. Do you know you will get better mileage with a compact diesel than with a gas hybrid? But you want to feel good because you are doing the “right thing”. Do you want another example how stupid goverment subsides are? In order to please environmentalists goverment implemented a $1/ gallon of biodiesel and ethanol subsides. Now the corn prices are up because biodiesel plants will pay more than animal feed factories. Then, cattle ranches will no longer have food for their cows, then less caws, then less meat at the supermarket, then higer prices. In no time meat will cost more than gold. Holly smokes!! I guess you are vegetarian and eat tofu. right?. So you will have no problem with meat prices.
Elect Obama and we will be paying 10 bucks a gallon at the pump. By the time all your hydrogen cars and your wind mills are working , the arabs and hugo chaves had eaten us alive.
So as most are probably aware, Mitt Romney even declared today that he did not believe Obama should be labeled a Socialist. I thought this was a very Democratic (in the societal structure sense, not Partisan) way to behave and hopefully it gave pause to some that jump on party-based attack bandwagons.
I don’t think he aims to take away the public’s opportunity to make their own independent way and to be successful – perhaps he wants us to be accountable to our own fellow citizens. There is almost no community responsibility anymore as the Boomers have turned from drippy hippy Flower Power to Outsourcing Selfism and I think that’s where this motivation to “spread things around” a little bit comes from. Nature, People, Economies, all need balance. That’s what the plan takes aim at.
FAC – I’ve hardly mentioned all the reasons that I dislike Sarah Palin and her ‘policies’, choosing instead to just have a bit of fun with her, but believe me, the list is long. Being a hunter and offering $150 rewards for severed Wolf paws (Pro-Life, indeed) is very closely related to her political views and illustrate how she likes to wield her political power. Her hunger to drill for oil instead of investing time into sources of alternative energy is a huge political position and one that, again, I find myself in gross contrast with. The lady, and I believe her running mate as well, wants personal power with very little actual desire to be a humble Public Servant.
How dare she go out in public with a Polar Bear pin attached to her lapel when she is known to aim at restricting their protection and destroying their habitat.
Quick, someone develop a Hybrid Snowmobile so she can be swayed!
I fear I’m beating the proverbial dead horse, so I’ll just end with a favorite quote from Civil Disobedience. I’m sure Thoreau would find fault with both candidates on the grounds that any government regulations would be ‘meddling’ in our individual rights. Perhaps he is right.
“The authority of government, even such as I am willing to submit to,-for I will cheerfully obey those who know and can do better than I, and in many things even those who neither know nor can do so well,- is still an impure one: to be strictly just, it must have the sanction and consent of the governed. It can have no pure right over my person and property but what I concede to it. The progress from an absolute to a limited monarchy, from a limited monarchy to a democracy, is a progress toward a true respect for the individual. Even the Chinese philosopher was wise enough to regard the individual as the basis of the empire. Is a democracy, such as we know it, the last improvement possible in government? Is it not possible to take a step further towards recognizing and organizing the rights of man? There will never be a really free and enlightened State until the State comes to recognize the individual as a higher and independent power, from which all its own power and authority are derived, and treats him accordingly. I please myself with imagining a State at last which can afford to be just to all men, and to treat the individual with respect as a neighbor; which even would not think it inconsistent with its own repose if a few were to live aloof from it, not meddling with it, nor embraced by it, who fulfilled all the duties of neighbors and fellowmen. A State which bore this kind of fruit, and suffered it to drop off as fast as it ripened, would prepare the way for a still more perfect and glorious State, which I have also imagined, but not yet seen.” – Henry David Thoreau
Wow! this was a really cool article. FROM A PLUMBER?
~Eve
~age 17
Sarah wrote:
I don’t think Obama is trying to pass any agenda. I think he’s trying to find solutions for the problems this country has. John McCain is too. I just happen to agree more with Obama and the way he conducts himself.
If this was the 80s I’d say, “So sue me”.
Actually both parties and both candidates have agendas. The problem is that the “solutions” Obama is trying to implement have some weak points.
First, if Obama agrees that raising taxes kills economic grow, why raise them? If you want to re-distribute the wealth, you only need more money to give to the “poor”. In this case lowering taxes will give him/them the money to help their cause. So, why rise taxes? because his/theirs agenda is not to help the “poor”, but to destroy the system. The final goal is implementing a full deployed socialist system.
Sarah wrote:
“I will attack the messenger if that messenger is going to take a major national office!”
See, we agree in some points. The difference is that your point against Sarah Palin are not point at all. Being a hunter or being a pro life are in my oppinion no motive for impairment those are her political views. On the other hand, listening to inflamatory speeches for 20 years and lying about it, or claiming Bill Ayers is some guy in the neighborhood are really isues of trust. I’m sorry, but I can not trust your guy.
I just goin to drop couple of quotes from one of the latest times liberals hero.
“It is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high and tax revenues are too low and the soundest way to raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now. Cutting taxes now is not to incur a budget deficit, but to achieve the more prosperous, expanding economy which can bring a budget surplus.”
– John F. Kennedy, Nov. 20, 1962, president’s news conference.
“Lower rates of taxation will stimulate economic activity and so raise the levels of personal and corporate income as to yield within a few years an increased – not a reduced – flow of revenues to the federal government.”
– John F. Kennedy, Jan. 17, 1963, annual budget message to the Congress, fiscal year 1964.
Now this is the new leberal:
From: Democrats’ Before Pennsylvania Primary
GIBSON: All right. You have, however, said you would favor an increase in the capital gains tax. As a matter of fact, you said on CNBC, and I quote, “I certainly would not go above what existed under Bill Clinton,” which was 28 percent. It’s now 15 percent. That’s almost a doubling, if you went to 28 percent.
But actually, Bill Clinton, in 1997, signed legislation that dropped the capital gains tax to 20 percent.
OBAMA: Right.
GIBSON: And George Bush has taken it down to 15 percent.
OBAMA: Right.
GIBSON: And in each instance, when the rate dropped, revenues from the tax increased; the government took in more money. And in the 1980s, when the tax was increased to 28 percent, the revenues went down.
So why raise it at all, especially given the fact that 100 million people in this country own stock and would be affected?
OBAMA: Well, Charlie, what I’ve said is that I would look at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness.
Do you guys still think your democratic party is the same? I’m not talking about minor adjustment due to new times. I’m talking about a major shift. It is like two different parties. If you still call it democratic it is up to you. I’ll call it socialist party.
Interesting back and forth article from the Dallas News that suggests Joe the Plumber would most likely get a TAX CUT under Obama’s plan – the article also provides a LITTLE bit more background into what the term small-business really means:
McCain Remarks on Obama ‘socialism’ viewed as stretch
Jen,
I am not sure I can agree with you. I see a lot of liberals making an awful lot of money who seem to be able to find many ways of getting around taxes. I do not believe the republican have a monopoly of “greed” and corruption. There are many hard working conservative people who do not see nearly the same advantages as the rich upper class, who more often than not managed to gain that wealth by finding as many loopholes as they can.
My husband made 158,000.00 last year. Im a stay at home mom. I wouldnt mind if we had to pay a little more taxes than the guy out there making 45,000.00. Whats wrong with ppl. Thats the difference between Demo. and Repub. Republicans are so greedy!!! Why do you think someone making 45,000.00 dosent work hard? Usually the less you make the harder you work. Republicans are so uptight with money. If you give the tax break to the middle class the economy will no doubt get better because we are spenders and we are givers. Give it to the rich and they hoard it. “MINE ALL MINE” Its too bad because its our turn now.Get Over it you had the last 8 years you put the middle class in the whole. You ruind the economy and now B.O will get us back on the right track Soooo Barrack The Vote!!!!!!!!!bwahahah!!!!
Hey sarah – don’t stop responding though…it has been great to have some additional folks on the forum.
I don’t shy away from debates but like to keep them on the thread. Thanks!
I see Marty’s point.
This is a very complex issue and I love a good debate 🙂 but will refrain from further response per Warren’s request.
Thank you for the forum to discuss 🙂
Begging Warren’s pardon, one final response to sarah:
My son is not the same as my wife’s body. Seeing how it takes two to tango, it ought to take two to untango… right?
I’m still waiting for my ‘reproductive rights’ to be recognized.
sarah et al – I would like to keep the thread remotely close to the topic….
The topic of education is an important one but not one that was addressed by Joe W.
On that topic, the candidates are actually closer than on most topics with the exception that McCain favors vouchers and Obama does not. They do favor charter schools.
I just don’t believe government should mandate what someone does with their body.
Sarah,
What about what someone does with another living body which will determine whether that individiaul lives or dies – is that ok or not?
Not so much. Don’t put words in my mouth.
I just don’t believe government should mandate what someone does with their body.
Not to take this thread in a completely different direction, but I will argue the point…
Killing is killing and I don’t think any of it is right or okay – but let’s be consistent.
To argue that one is condemnable and not the other defeats the point.
If we’re going to put government regulations on the body, I motion for Mandatory Castration for men who rape or commit incest.
sarah doesn’t like shooting wolves from airplanes, but dismembering babies in the womb is A-okay.
What a world we live in.
“Don’t you realise (sic) some people are moved by different motives.” – FAC
You should take your own advice 🙂
“Why are you guys attacking the messenger and not the message? The only time where you attack the individual is when there is something that could impair him/her for the job. Can you link Sarah Palin to any secret organization, any terrorist group, and any voodoo sect?” – FAC
I will attack the messenger if that messenger is going to take a major national office!
I don’t know about voodoo, but I can link her to hunting – and I don’t like hunting. It really bothers me that she encourages aerial shooting, among a lot of other positions she holds on issues such as abortion. It nobody’s right, especially not some uber right wing, evangelical, Bulwinkle killer to tell a woman what she does with her body.
I vehemently disagree with almost everything I’ve learned about her and as a citizen of a free country, I d*mn well have the right to say so.
I don’t think Obama is trying to pass any agenda. I think he’s trying to find solutions for the problems this country has. John McCain is too. I just happen to agree more with Obama and the way he conducts himself.
If this was the 80s I’d say, “So sue me”.
wow! FAC really doesn’t like it when someone disagrees with him…
Quick, someone get Bob Schieffer in here, we need a moderator!
Colorado Blue wrote:
“The truth is he really won’t have any desire to grow his business because why add headache when you already make more than excellent money. Right? ”
How do you know what he would do? Do you know him? Following your point of view nobody will ever want to make big extra bucks because the head ache?
What about Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Donald Trump, etc, etc. They should be masochists right? Don’t you realise some people are moved by different motives. Maybe your motives are for the easy and fast bucks? Some people are for the rush feeling, others for power over others, etc.
Also, to answer the rest of your post here are some statistics:
In 1862 the first year income tax was adopted 3% and 5% for incomes 800 and above 10K.
Today:
328K pays 36.9% income tax
137K pays 57.1% income tax
If you think goverment will stop at 250K or any other limit, you are wrong. There will be an excuse to take more money out of you. Today are the people making more than 250K tomorrow maybe average Joe making 60K and on, and on….the only people don’t need to worry abot is the people who don’t lift a finger to make a living. They live out of wellfare and will stay that way because some people don’t have motivations or will to do better. Ther are people who are proffessionals at playing the game and living for generation after generation out of wellfare. Do you want an example how wellfare corrupt people’s minds? In France one of the best selling books was about using goverment help make a living without working.
When it will ends? When people will stop working hard and less and less money will be available to “spread” or “re-distribute”. People get tired of working hard when their money is taking away to paid others “less afortunated”.
By the way, the top 10% earners in this country pay 68% in income taxes. The bottom 50% pay only 3.3% in income taxes and want even more.
Corporate taxes 15 to 39%. Then you guys complain why corporations are moving out? or why rich people hide their money in off-shore fake bank accounts?
Why do you think the former soviet union collapsed? Reagan? Think again, they fell under they own weight. People lost the motive to work hard, productivity fell lower and lower until goverment didn’t have any other way to pay for their business. At the end bankruptcy and system collapsed.
Jayhuck wrote:
“Private schools – are you kidding? What happens to those families who can’t afford to send their kids to a private school?”
Educate yourself and read this:
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3231
Then read this:
http://www.epodunk.com/top10/per_pupil/index.html
If I could get the money government spend to “educate” my kids I’d send them to a private school. I want the free enterprise concept in education. Let the government compete with the private sector and see what happens. The government is not giving me the choice to elect the school I like for my kids. I like the liberty to choose for my own family what is best for us. I don’t want to explain to my kids that “An Inconvenient Truth” is not the only movie about climate change and there is other point of views. I want my kids to have the same or better math skills than kids from Japan.
Jayhuck wrote:
“The vast majority of my classmates went through the public school system and are all the better for it. We have good jobs, families and lead productive lives. “
Good for them. Now, wouldn’t you go to Yale instead of community college?
Why? If you get a degree from Harvard and I get mine from UCF. Who do you think will get the better paid job?
If you think education system is good, you better think again. Go to any US university and you will see that the vast majority of students in technical majors are foreign students from Pakistan, China, India, etc.
“FAC – when we re-read the constitution, who’s interpretation of it do we use?”
C’mon as you can see, English is not my first language, yet I hadn’t any problem reading and understanding it. Maybe it is because I went to school outside the US? Lol. You don’t need anybody to interpret it for you or you want the “convenience” of somebody else telling you what is in it and what it is means.
Or maybe you want a judge telling you that the 2nd amendment is not really your right to bear arms. That they meant otherwise when they wrote it.
NK wrote:
“Well, Obama will be great for this country. Bottom line is we need a tax cut, if you are reach and make more than 250K, an extra 4% is Nothing and will not make you poor..this money will help POOR people ..cause 95% of ameriacans are emplyees..and make less than 100K…so if I was rich and lived confortably i don’t mind paying little extra to help …what the hell?? can u be compassionate ? this country will go down the drain if we continue this stupid politics ..and so what if governement do soemthing for the people?? is too much?? u suck/..wake up americans are OVERWORKED ..anyways ..they deserve something back for the powrful ..”
I don’t care if you want to give your entire paycheck or your family fortune to the poor. IT IS YOUR CHOICE. I don’t want nobody to taking my money and give it to others in order to get elected by them. If I want to give charity I’ll give to the church. After all they are more efficient in doing that than the government. One priest can comfort and distribute charity in all his community. On the other hand you need hundred bureaucrats to do the same thing and get a paycheck for doing it.
“A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.” – George Bernard Shaw
Sarah wrote:
“lol, jayhuck – excellent point
FAC, the constitution was established by a very small group of white men who were aiming to protect their own interests and has been used as a scapegoat and a figurehead for years by people aiming to pass through their own agendas.”
Can you tell me what is wrong with the constitution? And what agenda do you think is Obama trying to pass. SOCIALISM. I guess the millions of eastern Europeans who lived for more than 60 years under the socialism are stupid. How come they get rid of such wonderful socialist system?
Sarah wrote
“Most of the people I know that went to private schools have major Emotional or Personality Disorders, Drug Addictions or worse.”
You should visit any “good” public high school in LA or any other major city to see what drug use, abuse and dealing is all about.
Sarah wrote:
“ I’m not saying they don’t have benefits of learning in a more controlled environment, but you can’t possibly think that is the solution for a country of 73 Million children!”
Why not? Not enough private schools? Not enough teachers? Give the people a voucher and let them decide. If they want to go to a public school so be it. But I bet anything the majority will choose a private school. And by the way you will not be “attached” to your neighborhood school; you can choose any school in any neighborhood. If you talking segregation there you have a good example why bad neighborhood will remain bad.
Sarah wrote:
“The truth is that people evolve and their needs and circumstances change. You can’t learn all you need to know by reading the Bill of Rights and calling it a day.”
Of course not. But the reason this country is the best in the world is because that. What we have here are because our constitution. After all it is the first and most important piece of legislation. Why do you think people want to immigrate to the US? Maybe I’m wrong and you guys have an occult agenda against immigrants. Here is my theory: By making this country more like USSR you are scaring possible immigrants away. Mhh very clever. lol
NK wrote:
“i mean rich ..when u make 250 and above a year ..u are automatically above average …so like sarah indicated ..instead of spending it in nonsense …help others ..that’s waht taxes are for..”
What is nonsense to you? Do you think what is for you is for the rest of us? See, that is the problem with liberals. They think they know what is best for everybody. They think everybody is the same.
Wait a second, isn’t that precisely what a socialism is all about? Why you guys call yourselves Democratic Party? You should change your party name to people’s party or socialist party or workers party. There is a lot of funny name for your party.
sarah wrote:
“FAC, honey, your taxes are not going to afford you Private School for your kids,
Plus or Minus the 4%”
See above first answer to Jaychuck
Sarah wrote:
“I will say that I haven’t researched Obama’s past very much…..”
Please, by all means DO IT.
Sarah wrote:
“..And she owns a lot of nice suits..”
That is your best argument against her?
Sarah wrote:
“Also, I wonder…does she explain to her kids that Santa doesn’t come to their house on Christmas Eve because she shot Rudolph?”
That is funny! I didn’t know you guys have a sense of humor. Seriously, it would be funny in other circumstances, not now. Why are you guys attacking the messenger and not the message? The only time where you attack the individual is when there is something that could impair him/her for the job. Can you link Sarah Palin to any secret organization, any terrorist group, and any voodoo sect?
On the other hand you can tell a lot about the other guy that really brings questions. Or it really don’t bother you his associations? Do you really think he didn’t listen to his pastor and mentor preaching against USA? Do you really think his wife being proud of this country in the last 30 something years for the first time wasn’t what she meant?
I don’t know if anyone out here acutally OWNS a small business and $250,000 a year is not that much money for a corporation. There is so much overhead with paying employees, required insurance like workman’s comp and general liability, and what else???? TAXES!!!! Some are saying it’s only 3% so business need to stop whining; however, don’t forget that when taxes get raised, these businesses are going to raise their prices too!!! And those that say $250,000 is too much for a plumber to make…someone calculated it out to approximately $120/ hr, don’t forget there is sometimes overtime which is charged more. Also, you are not only paying for your labor service. You’re paying for materials and OVERHEAD!!!! So, no, business owners are not COMPLAINING…these are valid concerns that Obama keeps dancing around. You can never get a straight answer from him; just LISTEN AND DO YOUR RESEARCH!!!!
Some of you guys are a breath of fresh air to listen to and know what you are talking about.
For those of you who think that you have the right to someone elses hard earned labor I will put it simply like this.
If you right now are not giving your paycheck to those less fortunant than you then stop being a hypocrite. What right do you have to someone elses hard labor.
When you get a job there are things called contracts. If you do not like the terms of that employer then find something else. If you agree to work for those terms then it is your own fault and you have no one to blame but yourself.
Now for those of you who think the so called rich don’t pay enough in taxes. Let me tell you that you are completely wrong.
The top 1% in this country pay 37% of the total taxes collected.
The top 10% in this country pay over 50% of the taxes collected.
The top 25% in this country pay 84% of the taxes collected.
The top 50% (30k+) pay 98% of the taxes collected
The Bottom 50% pay only 2% of the total taxes collected by the federal government.
now please tell me again who is not paying their fair share of taxes. if you are working for a crappy employeer then who’s fault is that? not mine or anyone elses. i have worked for bad employeers to. guess what i quit and found a different job.
As for the whole keating and plant thing hmm that came straight out of the liberal blog network. Someone asked Joe about it and he said he had no idea. Do you really think that a man with those wealthy connections would be behind in his taxes along with all the other trouble he has? I don’t think so.
Jay – I’m not really into the whole conspiracy theory thing being touted by some above, although it is pretty clear that Joe the Plumber was clearly not an undecided looking to be convinced by Obama. Instead, it seems more likely he’s a dedicated Republican who saw an opportunity to push some McCain talking points. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. 🙂
However, that said, this was almost as good of a laugh as some of the things Jim was saying:
If Joe were netting $250k, the idea that he wouldn’t be able to afford to pay 1200 in taxes because he got bumped up a few percentage points? Hilarious.
But the real funny comes when you realize, as is now being reported pretty much media-wide, Joe doesn’t make anything near $250k right now and thus would benefit from a much greater tax cut under Obama. So perhaps he’d better reconsider his support for McCain if he wants to get that lein off his house.
“this is the plumber that is not licensed as a plumber.”
He doesnt need to be. Unlike some other states, Ohio does not have a formal statewide licensing system for plumbers. He would need a license for commercial work, but not residential work.
“This is the plumber that has a lien against him because he has not paid his back income taxes.”
I knew there was something I liked about him 🙂 In seriousness, its only about 1200 bucks he owes. Which he wont be able to pay if his taxes gets raised.
“This is the plumber whose is related through his family to Charles Keating. This is the plumber who is a registered republican and voted for McCain in the primary.”
Yeah? So? And? His Father is the son in law of Charles Keating. So he’s related by marriage. In a case like this, we cant exactly choose our relatives. Whom he is related to means diddly.
“What was this guy doing at the rally and made sure he was on TV asking this question?”
Obama came to HIS neighborhood. And when a Presidential candidate comes to your area, wouldnt you go out to see him? Get the chance to ask a few questions? And there was no way he could make sure that he would be on TV. In front of the cameras? Sure, he could make sure of that. But he has no control over what the tv station would edit out and leave in.
OK…It’s simple…Everybody is way too trusting of good ol’ Joe to do the right thing with those tax dollars he would save under McCain. The right thing that is expected from McCain the Republican is to give Joe less of a tax burden so he can more easily grow his business and hire another guy or two and create jobs. Sounds great and makes perfect sense. Give tax breaks so owners will grow their businesses. BUT…in undeniable actuality, Good ol’ Joe will be more than happy with his $250k that he makes. Who wouldn’t? The truth is he really won’t have any desire to grow his business because why add headache when you already make more than excellent money. Right? Instead, he’ll take his tax break under McCain and rahter than doing what a good Republican would expect in return for that tax break ol’ Joe would instead go buy a sweet new sports car for his “hard work” instead of hire that extra guy. 95% of people would do back flips for $250k. Just like little ol’ Joe you can’t trust these mega corps to do the right thing either. The huge corps take their tax savings and buy foreign labor, foreign property, open off shore tax dodging accounts, open “off shore” businesses, etc. etc. Obama is simply forcing the money to stay in America and working for America through taxes rather than trust. You certainly can’t trust the corps and rich to keep it here but taxes means we don’t have to rely on trust. Can’t you just hear Exxon calling up McCain and saying that we as Americans can “trust” them to do the right things with the tax savings while they crush profit records gouging us at the pump.
It’s simpe… if the tax savings Bush forked out is being used irresponsibly than it’s our responsibility to take the gift back. If your kid trashed, raced and wrecked a car you bought him you would take it back too.
Joe the Plumber~
this is the plumber that is not licensed as a plumber. This is the plumber that has a lien against him because he has not paid his back income taxes. This is the plumber whose is related through his family to Charles Keating. This is the plumber who is a registered republican and voted for McCain in the primary.
What was this guy doing at the rally and made sure he was on TV asking this question?
Obama ’08 – wooohoooo 🙂
Joe has nothing to worry about. If he’s worried about tax on his personal income from his business, he’s running his business WRONG.
Why are we discussing these two people? Niether one is fit for the office of presidency.
I’m writing in my vote
Mary,
I am still trying to find time to come and visit, however, will forfeit my personal life if you need to write my name on the ballot – you can come to Washington to visit.
Why are we discussing these two people? Niether one is fit for the office of presidency.
I’m writing in my vote. And so should others.
I will say that I haven’t researched Obama’s past very much, but if you want to talk about convicted felons, then perhaps we need to remember this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keating_Five
I would much rather put a man in office who has questioned and been skeptical of the country he lives in. Anyone with half a brain would. So what if he protested? That meant he was paying attention! It’s those that sit by and let injustices happen that I’m most afraid of. And yet McCain and his spinmeisters are getting the better of a great many people who allow themselves to be tricked into a fear-based mentality.
I’m a woman and I don’t want Sarah Palin within 10 yards of the White House. Yes, perhaps she has been aggressive and proactive which women should certainly be. And she owns a lot of nice suits. But I don’t believe she’s directed that energy in the right places and the prospect of her as President scares the h*ll out of me, as it should any freethinking human being.
She wants CONTROL – has said it herself – for a position that should really do nothing except Break Ties! The VP has no control, and yet she, and an alarming amount of people in this country, believe that because she likes to hunt, she should be a National leader…? During the debates last night McCain mentioned earmarked spending and how against it he was. Did he neglect to find out that his running mate has the highest rate of requests for such earmarks? Or maybe they planned her “Build the Bridge Ourselves” speech to distract us, again, from the stains on their own sleeves.
Also, I wonder…does she explain to her kids that Santa doesn’t come to their house on Christmas Eve because she shot Rudolph?
I keep wondering why no one has questioned how a regular plumber, Joe Wurzelbacher, who lives in a 1,500 sq ft frame ranch home, can afford to buy a business in which he expects to NET (after deductions) more than $250,000 a year. AFTER EXPENSES and DEDUCTIONS!! That’s when taxes are computed. It must be SOME great plumbing business. Joe Wurzlebacher, who lives in a VERY modest 1,500 sq ft house, can afford to just up and buy that business, and begin earning more than 98 percent of the rest of America is amazing to me. I should have been a plumber!!
AMERICA – wake up NOW. Your Dem nominee is done. Before you press the lever on Nov 4 – remember this: Ayers, Wright, Rezko, – and the big one, ACORN. He lied thru his teeth last night. He didn’t answer why his campaign gave them 800K. He lied about his campaign kicking off in Ayer’s living room 6 years ago. OUTRIGHT LIE. Also, about BIDEN – a shame that McCain didn’t bring up that Biden is on record saying : 1) Women should be seen and not heard – 2) Electing Palin as VP is a Step Backward for Women. Can you imagine that. I guess he learned nothing from losing his first wife !! Too Bad. Getting back to the other guy, Don’t fall for him. He’ll do to Joe the Plumber what he’ll do to everyone. This is nothing more than a slick, street character, hiding being nice suits. THere’s nothing else there – and you better understand this now. NO TIME TO EXPERIMENT ON AN EMPTY TRACK RECORD – AND A GUY WHO HAS AFFILIATED HIMSELF WITH TERRORISTS, INCENDIARY FOLKS, AND CONVICTED REAL ESTATE FELONS – RIGHT IN HIS OWN HOMETOWN OF CHICAGO !!!!!!! One last thing – Rev Wright. Here was there for 20 years, married by him, kids baptized by him. ANOTHER LIE from him, saying he never heard an incendiary speech – YET – after 20 years, and under fire, he tells the AMERICAN PEOPLE that he has resigned from the church. WHO ARE WE KIDDING PEOPLE ????? Even Rev Wright, as bad as he is, goes on record saying your Dem nominee is a coward, and took the easy way out by resigning. SOUND FAMILIAR ? Yes, same thing as voting “Present” over 90% of the time. Can’t make a decision, has never made a major decision. WHY ? He has no record of anything. WAKE UP NOW You want to be conned any further, give him your vote – because by 2012, you’ll be in much worse shape than you are now.
Here are some facts for, as Jim would put it, “the uneducated”:
1) Households making over 250k a year make up 1.5% of US households. I suppose we could haggle about what exactly the definition of rich is, but that looks like a pretty exclusive club to me.
(PS – I’m pretty sure nobody needs 250k to “raise their kids right” – that’s an insult to the vast majority of Americans doing so with far less.)
2) The 40% (or whatever it is) of the population not paying income taxes are hardly the “lucky duckies” you make them out to be. People with low incomes pay excise taxes, sales taxes, and payroll taxes at much higher rates relative to their income than the rich do. They also generally enjoy such privileges as no paid time off and lack of health insurance coverage.
3) The idea that individuals are in complete control their economic destinies, and that “trickle down” economics is the way to stimulate more income mobility, are both myths well past their prime. Most credible sociologists and economists agree that the family you are born into is the greatest single factor in determining your class as an adult. There are lots of reasons for that. But although belief in mobility has increased over time, actual mobility of families has actually decreased, not increased, over time – since fiscal conservative and neoliberal politics began to reduce the tax rates on businesses and the highest income brackets. Likewise, people believe it is easier to move up in social class in the US compared to European countries, but cross-country comparisons show that US mobility of families in poverty into middle-class status is amongst the lowest of developed countries – we compare favorably to the UK, but do worse than France, Germany, Canada, or Scandinavian countries like Denmark.
4) It turns out that Joe the Plumber’s prospective business might be worth $250k to buy, but is nowhere near $250k in profits. Which means he’ll probably get a tax cut under Obama – and probably a larger one than he would under McCain. Perhaps he’ll use that tax cut to hire some cheap labor and stimulate the economy.
FAC, honey, your taxes are not going to afford you Private School for your kids,
Plus or Minus the 4%
i mean rich ..when u make 250 and above a year ..u are automatically above average …so like sarah indicated ..instead of spending it in nonsense …help others ..that’s waht taxes are for..
lol, jayhuck – excellent point
FAC, the constitution was established by a very small group of white men who were aiming to protect their own interests and has been used as a scapegoat and a figurehead for years by people aiming to pass through their own agendas.
Most of the people I know that went to private schools have major Emotional or Personality Disorders, Drug Addictions or worse. I’m not saying they don’t have benefits of learning in a more controlled environment, but you can’t possibly think that is the solution for a country of 73 Million children!
The truth is that people evolve and their needs and circumstances change. You can’t learn all you need to know by reading the Bill of Rights and calling it a day.
well, Obama will be great for this country. Bottom line is we need a tax cut, if you are reach and make more than 250K, an extra 4% is Nothing and will not make you poor..this money will help POOR people ..cause 95% of ameriacans are emplyees..and make less than 100K…so if I was rich and lived confortably i don’t mind paying little extra to help …what the hell?? can u be compassionate ? this country will go down the drain if we continue this stupid politics ..and so what if governement do soemthing for the people?? is too much?? u suck/..wake up americans are OVERWORKED ..anyways ..they deserve something back for the powrful ..
The vast majority of my classmates went through the public school system and are all the better for it. We have good jobs, families and lead productive lives. FAC – when we re-read the constitution, whose interpretation of it do we use?
Private schools – are you kidding? What happens to those families who can’t afford to send their kids to a private school?
WHO IS THE REAL JOE THE PLUMBER:
Turns out that Joe Wurzelbacher from the Toledo event is a close relative of Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio. Who’s Robert Wurzelbacher? Only Charles Keating’s son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. The now retired elder Wurzelbacher is also a major contributor to Republican causes giving well over $10,000 in the last few years.
Sarah, I think our school system is bankrupt for many reasons. I rather have the goverment give me back my taxes, and let me select a private school for my kids. We have to return to the roots. We have to bring the constitution and the bill of rights and re-read it again. You will find the answer to all of our problem right there.
I’d happily pay higher taxes if it was going to our schools and education system getting up to par instead of spa trips and life rafts for “hard working people” who have been playing the system for years. People on welfare aren’t the only ones who take advantage.
Think about it. You work so you can afford to live well. In this country, living well means pacifying each other with material goods. Each generation is growing up progressively shallower and more spoiled and as test scores show, Dumber.
Instead of worrying about tax breaks for business owners, I’m far more concerned with an ethical shift happening first and some long term thinking instead of whose platform will afford me a yacht sooner.
Really, where are you going with that? Once you get the darn thing it’s, as Dad likes to say, a Hole in the Ground to which you throw money.
This man is an actor and a Republican plant!
I’ve seen it proven definitively. There is no record of him in Toledo.
Vote for the fair tax if you want fairness in tax matter.
**comes back to cheer for Sammy**
JIM, gee, I wonder, do you think the $700+ billion bailout is not the same redistribution you disagree with.
On a second note, will Joe plumber CHEAT on his taxes when he owns this business. I have uncles who own several hotels, 8 of them, and boy it seems that Escalade they bought for the “business” sure gets used for personal reasons a ton. Sure, I agree we should not redistribute income, but then we should also have ZERO loop holes in taxes. Look. You want to play fair, then play fair across the board. Stop cherry picking!
Jim,
I’m not sure if you’ve read the papers for the last decade or so but a bunch of those “bad evil corporations” really are bad and evil – especially when it comes to healthcare. When the bottom line is the dollar, people lose, they get ripped off and they get cheated out of many things. How many corporate scandals have we born witness to over the last several years? I make a VERY good salary and I can still see that many corporations (granted, not all) are simply greedy machines.
This guy is a fool. Joe may have worked hard to get where he is, but he now has become a wannabe elitist. He is a conceited man who thinks because he MAY achieve success, or already is, that he has become a new person. Think back to the times when you had a wooden spoon and how hard it was. You did not use a plumber. You washed your dishes by hand. You did your laundry by hand if need be. I admire hard work and that he is achieveing success. But get a LIFE Joe! OOOH!!! 3% more in taxes. If you have a good accountant, you can get most of that in write offs. PLUS, Obama’s plan will CUT your taxes if you supply your workers with good benefits and things that THEY WORK HARD FOR AND DESERVE! But, no, you think because you could SAVE money and have more, you would rather CUT your workers benefits and everything else, just for you! JOE, you are OFFICIALLY a REPUBLICAN! SOMEONE HAD TO SAY IT! YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN! And, as a wealthy democrat, who believes in PEOPLE AND THE AMERICA DREAM (which you DO NOT anymore considering you don’t care about your workers in my opinion) I HOPE THAT PEOPLE REMEMBER YOU AND BOYCOTT YOUR BUSINESS! The REAL power of being an AMERICAN! And yes, let other REPUBLICANS support your business and I wish you all the best, but with this economy…..you may just go back to being an AVERAGE PLUMBER making $42,000 a year (what most plumbers make) and BEGGING for OBAMA’S PLAN!
Jim, you are freaking hilarious I must say.
Lee, I agree with you on that. Bail out business is wrong. Economics are cycles, and you should not attempt to mess with those natural cycles if you don’t want to screw up things. The problem is the big corporations are so big that if couple of them fails, they pull down the whole economy. That will never happens if just mom and pop business goes downhill. They will not drag nobody. The gov. is the one who let those big monsters get so big, and pass laws that benefit those corporations in detriment of small business. In my oppinion that falls into the scheme for world socialism to take over. You don’t need to nationalize any industry, just help big business getting bigger and wait for the right economic cycle to take over. I am a little pessimist, but it is what I’m seeing and people are following the game. Is like cows going to the slaugther house. No bodys asking themselves where are the 60 millions members of the communist party in USSR? What about the other socialist countries in europe? Where are the KGB , Stassi, etc. They are sitting in the Kremlin right now. McCain was right when he said he saw a KGB on Putin. He is right. Do you think communist are stupids to give up so easily? They are just re-organizing the strategy. You won’t find them in any communist or socialist party. Haven’t you see a rise in liberal activity here in the US after the fall of communism? People, wake up. I know them, I live with them for many years.
Absolutely Jim. Im with you. The banks arent wrong or evil for foreclosing. They are simply trying to recoop some of the money they are haven stolen from them from deadbeats who refuse to pay their bills.
Anyway, one mans foreclosure and loss of house is another mans good deal when purchasing a house. Thank God for the idiot who couldnt afford to pay for his beach house, he allowed me to get it at auction for less than 50% of value.
It seems to me that redistribution of the wealth is exactly what’s been going on for a number of years already, to the benefit of the wealthy, with their tax cuts and loop-holes, etc, etc. Obama’s plan works in the direction of evening out the playing field: taxation more closely according to one’s means.
There’s nothing new about the story of people on the border of tax brackets feeling the disincentive to rise across that border. But isn’t it a different quality of life for those whose biggest concern is about having to shoulder more taxes because of their increased level of affluence. It’s a problem sure, but a better qualtiy one than most can afford.
Re: Princess wears prada’s prattlings
I assume, Princess, that you’ve read this interview in full. Mr. Wurzelbacher seems like a really great guy, the kind of guy I’d like to have a beer with, but he’s certainly not an economist and if he’s aware of certain economic facts, he blithely glosses over them:
-“You know, I don’t like people going without healthcare, but it’s not my job to pay for everyone else’s healthcare.” Clearly, Joe doesn’t understand that the fact that some people don’t have healthcare means that he’s already paying for their healthcare in the form of his higher premiums. This isn’t some obscure bit of trivia: Obama said as much in the debate and the fact that this is how uninsured people drive up others’ premiums has been widely promulgated. Somehow, Joe missed the message.
-“You’re going to tax someone else more that’s been working hard to fulfill the American Dream and you’re gonna give it to other people who – I’m not saying they don’t work as hard, but I’m sure some of them don’t – and I don’t think it’s right just to give it to them or reduce taxes on their part and hike it up on my part like a teeter totter to bring it back even. ” The root of Joe’s complaint about Obama’s tax plan is that his business’s revenues lie right on the cusp between two tax brackets in Obama’s plan. This, we can agree, is selfish—Joe himself says as much when he says that if he were in the position Obama mentioned, i.e. someone just starting out, he would likely support Obama’s plan. But now this hurts Joe, and Joe doesn’t think that’s fair because Joe thinks he’s worked hard enough to enjoy a tax break. We can deduce this from Joe’s digression in the middle, the part about “I’m not saying they don’t work as hard, but I’m sure some of them don’t.” Now, in theory, if some people don’t work harder than Joe, some people must also work harder than Joe, unless we’re going to give Joe the title of America’s Hardest Working Man. But Joe doesn’t mention any of the people working harder than him. Doesn’t seem to cross his mind. Princess, I’m waiting to hear one of these incredible insights….
-“Some even say he could plunge us into a depression or even bankruptcy in about three years.” Who is this questioner? Large, stable governments, governments like the United States, governments whose money is treated as hard currency around the globe don’t go bankrupt. The fact that we’ve run trillions of dollars in the red the last eight years has to be proof that the United States might go into a depression but that it can’t go bankrupt, at least not how we think of that word. I’ll ask again: who is this questioner? When Joe very nicely says that he doesn’t think he can make a prediction about the world economy three years from now (well done, Joe!), the questioner comes back with “That’s fair enough. Could it be that people won’t be as productive?” Could WHAT be that people won’t be as productive? This is the most ham-fisted attempt to bring the Laffer Curve into a conversation I’ve ever seen. One more time: who is this questioner???
I suppose I’ll stop there. Princess Wears Prada, if you get a chance, shoot me an e-mail and let me know where you saw insight from Joe. [email protected]
-dan
Let’s face it. Both candidates are wrong in even attempting to halt the foreclosure process. Lenders (hard money and conventional) need to be paid or they need to take the property. You cannot attempt to stall the foreclosure process. If they do, many more defaults will occur, because it will provide a way to pay bills. Skip a payment and pay other bills. I strongly disagree with stopping the rights of lenders to foreclose!
I think nobody is a looser while he is trying to improve themselves. I think looser is the one who stop triying to get to the next level. You can be in welfare but trying your butt off and no being a looser. You could be a professional wanting to do things but no trying to reach your goals and that is a looser. while you are moving and fighting you are not a looser. I miself am an immigrant sepoarated from family and friends having to start over again. Right now bluish collard worker, but working like mad and savig in order to go on my own. It is hard and no easy task and right now it can be done. It is harder than in the past certaninly easier than in the future. If you know your industry and its history you will realise how much regulations and gov. bureucracy has emerged in the lates years. In the future there will be more regulations and litigations if Obama is elected.
“Whenever I climb I am followed by a dog called ‘Ego’.”
– Friedrich Nietzsche
I don’t dream of not spending time with my children or gaming consoles that ultimately make me dumber.
And I’ve been to Paris, thank you, FAC.
I’ve stayed with the company because I believe you should give it at least a year before moving on. In my company the owners are the least effective members of the team and usually screw things up more than help them. I’ve had many offers and will probably be taking one soon, so thanks for the pep talk, Jim, but I’ll be fine.
Have a nice day everyone.
Poor life choices on your part does not constitute an emergency or crisis on my part. Nor do I feel like paying for your poor life choices.
To put this whole thread in simplist terms for the uneducated.
Liberals are the children on the playground at school who are always whining “not fair” and “you cheated” when they lose.
They have simply grown up and are now doing to same thing.
Losers always hate winners and want to punsish them.
Its much easier for some moron making 8 bucks an hour to blame the evil corporations, the GOP and Bush for his 8 buck an hour job, than for him to look in the mirror, take personal responsibility and think “Gee, maybe I make 8 bucks an hour because my resume says GED under education and Can work a mop, under skills”
on a side note – I think another problem is that you’re looking at people who labor as “uneducated losers”
I’m technically a laborer, but I come from a wealthy family and made the choice to do what I do. And I trained for a long time to do it. When most of my “Educated” counterparts were going to the State U and practicing their beer bong technique, I was working on my trade. Now, in your train of thought, that makes me a ‘loser’.
Not everyone has the same jumping off point and not everyone wants the same things.
Sorry Sarah but that is just plain envy.If your business is not giving you enough, MOVE ON to another until you can buy ten nannies and hundred Wii consoles and a yatch and a condo in Paris and…………… just dream and go for it.
Sarah, you said and I quote “I work 60+ hours a week for under 40K because I want the company to do well”
That is wrong…..You work 60+ hours a week for under 40K a year because you havent chosen to give yourself the skills that make you worth higher pay. You are simply not worth a higher paid job. The reason your boss hired you was to make money for himself and his own family. Nanny and all. Your boss has a Nanny and can afford a nanny because he is simply worth that and made the choices in life to make himself worth that.
In this country we all control our own pay. We all choose our own pay. We all have the freedom to make as much as we want. If you want higher pay, its up to you to make yourself worth higher pay. No one is owed a job or higher pay. YOU EARN IT.
John, it is a BIG deal. I don’t care if Bill made ten billions per hour. IT IS HIS MONEY and HE should be the only one deciding how much and who to give to.
The problem is people don’t look for information when they have to make decisions. All people want to hear is american idol and the latest stupid fad. They trust CNN, MSNBC, etc as the bible. Then when problems arise they blame everybody but themselves. I don’t bame nobody for dropping out from school, or for not fleeing when a major hurricane is coming. I’ll blame myself. I don’t deserve nothing I have not worked hard for it. If you think otherwise you should be more responsible for yourself.
Ok, lets look at that John.
When Obama says he wants to cut taxes for “95%” of americans and 40% of americans dont even pay income tax. Obama is basically saying he wants to hand a check to people who dont even pay income tax.
You dont think Obama taking 4% of 30K is a big deal?
Why dont you personally volunteer to give some uneducated loser who refuses to earn 1200 bucks of your own money?
Of course they need to co-exist. But everybody should be willing to make sacrifices.
I work 60+ hours a week for under 40K because I want the company to do well. I pick up slack where others leave it – and then instead of having insurance or incentives like raises or even bonuses (of which we have none of the above) – I watch my boss hire two nannies because his wife is too busy running around on his dime to take care of her own child. I watch them buy motorized ‘baby soothers’ for him and enroll him in a fancy academy that he won’t attend for at least 4 years, but forget to buy pacifiers and hats when it’s winter.
There’s waste everywhere – I guess I’d rather waste it on people that are working now than see it go to buying Nintendo Wiis for kids who will have a distorted sense of reality when they get older.
Jim, well said I couldn’t agree more with you
If Joe had net income of 280k, he would pay the added 3 ot 4 percent on the 30k. Big deal!
Sarah, business owners and employees need to co-exist to create wealth. One can’t exist without the other. Capital gain is the engine that moves economics. If you think you can make a living as an employee without an employer, you are wrong. Because as long as you don’t need them you are them. Even a contractor is a capitalist because he/she own their tools. Marx said a worker is the one who don’t have capital or tools of their own.(When I said tools I means way to make goods)
FAC
and that, Jim, is the problem.
For all you uneducated Obama supporters, let me explain how business in this country works.
I own a small business and the yearly profits are way over $250,000 a year. However, I am not even close to being rich. Im simply a successful upper middle class american and single father of 3 kids, who uses all of his money to raise my kids right.
Now, Obama wants to raise my small business taxes and my personal income taxes and hand some check over to some lower paid moron who doesnt even pay income taxes.
This is how it really works. I consider taxes simply an opporating cost of doing business. An increase in taxes simply means Im going to have to make cuts in the budget to pay those increased taxes. Now, Im sure as hell not going to cut my pay and take money from my kids. Im sure has hell not going to cut the pay of my more important higher paid educated skilled workers. In business, cuts almost always come from the bottom line. I will simply cut the pay of some of my lowest paid workers. Those workers are easiely replaced and pretty much expendable.
The same thing happened when my state increaed minimum wage. Because of state laws I am required to pay my commissioned sales people an hourly wage, plus commission. So my sales people get minimum wage plus commission. Keep in mind that most these sales people easiely make 6 figures. When my state increased mininimum wage, I was forced by the government to give 6 figure employees a raise. This needs to be paid for. So cuts in my payroll budget had to be made. Again, Im never going to cut my pay. Im not going to cut the pay of my educated important workers…they make me the most money. What I did was cut the pay of my sales support group who are young unskilled people who made about 9 bucks an hour.
What liberals dont get is IN BUSINESS, INCREASED COST FOR THAT BUSINESS, ALWAYS COMES FROM THE BOTTOM OF WAGE EARNERS.
CORPORATIONS DONT PAY TAXES, THEY SIMPLY PASS THE COST DOWN.
Seems like a lot of hoopla about nothing, I’m pretty sure this is how it works out:
First, Joe the plumber only needs to worry about this if he is a sole proprietor or “S” corporation. I haven’t heard of anything yet that will change “C” corporations.
Second, Joe the plumber needs to *net* after expenses $250K. So first he deducts his business expenses, employees salaries (but not his “own”), etc. If he borrows money to purchase the plumbing business, the interest is likely an expense as well.
If at the end of the day he has $250K of gross profit (the equivalent of salary), then he begins to trip into the next tax bracket. And then, he is probably only paying the 3% (assuming the number is true) on the marginal income. So if he profits by $280K, he’s paying an additional 3% on the $30K in excess of $250K, or about $900.
I would gladly pay $900 extra in taxes to make an extra $30K, and I have a hard time believing that Joe can’t buy the business because of $900 a year, given that he is taking $250K out of it (before paying any principle). If the business can’t support that, it probably isn’t worth buying at the price he had planned, and Obama is doing him a favor.
People SHOULD get upset if their check is late.
This is what I don’t get about some small business owners, and I’ve worked for a lot of them as I’m an independent contractor (Graphic Design). You want someone to do work for you but you don’t make sure that before you enlist their services that you can afford to pay them?! That’s either crooked or just plain stupid.
Business owners have just as much right to give back as they do to make money as there is no way they would get to where they are without the help and labor of others. In fact, in the case of most of the business owners I’ve worked with, the only thing they have is an idea and then they’ve got to turn it over to other people to make that happen. Without the people working for them, they’ve got nothing.
So Joe the plumber, and the rest of the folks that think they’re accomplishing the American Dream on their own, better be happy to pay a little more in taxes to be on the top of the food chain. Obama’s right, whether it sound like Socialism or not, if people don’t have money to use your business, you won’t have a business for very long. THAT’s simple economics that everyone should be able to understand.
Can someone explain to me who is goin to decide on what is and what isn’t fair? On how much I can keep from my paycheck? Obama? Pelosi, Reed? No, thank you , I’ll pass.
So, if I make more than 250 K I’m being unfair? What about if I make 249,999 Am I fair now? If you really think they are goin to stop at the 250K mark, you are being naive. You need to go back in time and learn about taxes. Do you know income tax was inconstitutional? Do your homework. This is nothing more than a sharp turn to the left and socialism. We should learn from the french and elect another Sarkozy.
To Bill MD, just wait until you become an employee of the US Dep. of Health. Do you want to know what happen to doctors under socialism? Go to Cuba and check the rate of MD driving taxis down there. I really don’t know what your point is. When you went to college you decided to become somebody’s else employee. If you decide now to go on your own, you become “heated greedy capitalist”. It is not suprise that a business owner made more money than their employees. Who was the one risking their hard made money? Who was the one working 18 hrs a day to make their dream come true? What have those screamming about fairness done to help themselves ? Give me a break. Do you want to know what welfare and socialism make to people? Ask any western german about their unification with theri brothers from east germany. Ask any venezuelan what happens when you vote for a socialist. Why voting against the “corrupt same people” is not always the best choice. Are you telling me obama is the “messiah”? Wow, that is amazing.
I don’t think US will become a socialist country with obama, but little by little we are getting there. Liberal president with a liberal congress, a liberal senate and a liberal supreme court is what will follows if obama is elected. Want to know what will be of all us when that happens? I don’t want to be here by then.
Thank you for your time and sorry my broken english.
FC
I am a small business owner and a CPA. If my business was residential plumbing, I would want to make sure that 95% of my customers had more spending power. In a bad economy where the majority of Americans are strapped, I am going to have a harder time making over 250K. In good times, I work a lot of hours but I have never made 250K in net income, and most plumbers I know don”t either.
@ Legolas – Thanks for pointing out the difference between nominal and real tax rates. The OSCE probably has the best data providing tax comparisons across the developed world, and their analysis consistently shows that the real US corporate tax rate is surprisingly low, and that the US has almost the lowest overall tax ration as a percentage of GDP. (here: http://www.oecd.org/document/4/0,3343,en_2649_34533_41407428_1_1_1_1,00.html)
Also, Warren, you’re comparison with “that region” (Ireland, presumably) bringing in business is probably skewed by circumstances. I’ve been to Ireland regularly for business over the past two years, and it is certainly an atypical country in that:
– It experienced roughly 10% GDP growth rates throughout most of the 2000s, no doubt a feat easier for a country of 4 million to achieve.
– It is severely lacking in human resources, and relies on massive immigration (from eastern Europe) to staff new jobs being brought in.
What I’m getting at is the fact that Ireland’s model is not one that can be replicated by the United States because the circumstantial factors are entirely different.
@Lee: And also read Joe’s entire interview at Family Security Matters.
Whether it is 3% or 30%, the principle Obama rolls with is income redistribution. For those of us opposed in principle to socialism, going further away from free markets is not an advance.
A strong case can be made that the government interference with the housing market in the form of the Community Reinvestment Act and subsequent revisions and additions interfered with the markets to the point of bringing us the present crisis.
Please note that Obama is not going to campaign as a socialist and expect to win. He is subtle and shrewd. However, the philosophical foundation of spreading the wealth around is not a principle I want to put in the executive branch.
@ Jeff & Bill –
Jeff – ‘…only the rishest people and corps in America will be taxed more.’ ? First off, who do you think pays the VAST majority of taxes in this country already? What Obama wants to do is to not only cut taxes for people on the lower end of wage-earning, he wants to have the government giving larger refunds to people who don’t pay income taxes in the first place!! Smells like Marxism to me!
Bill – You sit there and throw out that ‘Joe’ must make $120 an hour. I find that od coming from someone in residency, as you undoubtedly work far more than 40 hours per week (how your figures were based). If you’ve ever owned or even managed a company, or for some who are just on salary, you would understand that with that kind of responsibility, you *never* work *only* 40 hours a week. I would be willing to bet that ‘Joe’, and many small business owners, work more like 80 hours+. Most of them I know haven’t taken a vacation day in years, not even a sick day. They bust their asses off.
Your claim that the ‘Average American’ will do much better undr Obama is based on conjecture and class warfare.
You guys just don’t get it. If you tax the people who make money and jobs, there will be no money or jobs.
Check out factcheck.org people and educate yourselves for once! You McCain supporters ESPECIALLY…have you been living in a freaking box for the past eight years or what?!! Or are you all rich? And..yes, today making over $250,000. a year is rich, and if it isn’t then I am in poverty..wayyyy below poverty and I work at a plumbing business, GO FIGURE! This isn’t our country anymore, it is that of our children’s..think about it!
I Love Joe the Plummer! Really, I LOVE Joe the Plummer! PUMA’s for Joe!
The business that Joe wants to buy generates revenue between $250,000 and $280,000. This is according to Joe.
Obama’s plan would raise the tax on this business by 3%.
$250,000 * 3% = $7,500.
So after one year of owning the business, Joe would need to pay an extra $7,500 in tax. This is going to keep him from buying the business? Really???
Please take the time to watch the untouched version of the actual interview with “Joe the Plumber”. Obama did an excellent job. Joe was actually pleased with the answers. Joe was actually getting health care cuts and only a 3% increase in his taxes. I mean really people, this is over going from 36% to 39% and at the same time a business affordable health plan.
There was just pressure from someone that caused Joe to change the way things went in that direct conversation with Obama.
Please see the full version…..Joe just didn’t like Barack Obama beforehand and still has some hatred against him, even after he totally explained it so well.
WATCH THE ENTIRE U-TUBE INTERVIEW…..THANKS
The 250K referred to must be profit, post the cost of supplies, etc. To me, that is rich and Joe is whining.
@moddr:
McCain – If you wanted to run against George Bush, you should have run 4 years ago.
lol what happened to small business under Bush..enough said
Ireland tax rate argument debunked here.
Lets see. Joe the Plumber makes more than $250,000 per year.
.
Thats more than $120 an hour (which is about $100 an hour more than I make … but I’m only a Medical Doctor in my residency … so 4 years of college and 4 years of med school and 3 years of residency really don’t count for much)
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Thats great for Joe … but he is NOT an average American. The average American will do much better under Obama. The average millionaire or the average billionaire or the average multinational corporation will do great under McCain.
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In a few more years, I’ll come close to making the quarter million dollars a year that Joe the Plumber makes. I only hope that greed will not turn me into a conservative.
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If you have any question what God thinks about money … just look who He gives it to.
@Jeff:
What is false here Jeff? Obama’s plan will tax income over $250k at an increased rate.
Couples making over $250k are not rich by American standards and businesses pass on tax increases to the consumers, which is an indirect tax.
Did you notice what McCain said about Ireland’s corporate tax rate? 14%; I recently spoke to an official from that region who made it clear that the country is doing quite well bringing in business. We have the second highest corporate tax rate in the world. Let’s create a better business climate and keep businesses from relocating to the old country.
Actually that is false information.
Middle Class , and anyone making under $250,000 K a year won’t be hit by Obama taxes, only the richest people and corporations in America will be taxed more.
McCain wants to screw the middle class like bush and working class and give tax breaks for rich oil companies and corporations
Dont fall for the GOP (Gas and OIL PARTY) BS
If you are a middle class small business owner, you will lose in an Obama administration!
Obama hates capitalism and wants to tear down this great country.
all this incredible insight….from a PLUMBER…who know!?!?
I used to always say, maybe i should just date a plumber…now i know why!