Wake up and smell the hormones.
I wonder what would happen if we varied sexual orientation? Would the involuntary responses say something about learning or about orientation?
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Ann, what you said earlier bears repeating: “this is why it is so imperative that those doing the research or studies actually TALK to individuals without constraints and then they will have accurate information rather than assumptions which can be so dangerous. If they start with the assumptions you mentioned, research is doomed “
But actually talking to gay people is not nearly as much fun as making presumprtions about them and then finding “proof” of your presumptions.
Ann,
What feels natural — that’s debatable. What feels natural can be put into place by practice too, the earlier the age, the stronger the effect. You asked me something on a different topic, about a “self-locking” mechanism that might preclude later changes in orientation. I know there is a less visible category of people who got some degree of same-sex feelings during adulthood, after having had exclusive opposite-sex attractions all of their childhood and adolescence and who found it difficult to reverse the later SSA effect. Had they gotten the same feelings earlier in life they would have now reported that they feel natural to them, but as their memory is more recent, this category of people might not feel that all of their feelings are natural or inborn. So, we can have comparable feelings to study but different backgrounds and developmental paths. Some might report natural SSA feelings, although those feelings might not be inborn, whereas others might report having similar feelings that don’t feel natural. So reports can be tricky, because we don’t know whether feelings really are inborn to any degree or how does any feeling get to feel natural.
Finding that some gay men get a rush of testosterone when meeting women won’t say much about why it feels natural to them to feel greater having sex with men. It all depends on interpretation. If the scientist who conducted this experiment ascribed the effect to evolutionary patterns of behaviour doesn’t mean he can prove it. Evolution is not replicable. Whatever he says is post-factum interpretation that gets some factual support. But it would be interesting to see why gay men can still have sex with women if there was any evolutionary plan for them to increase their mother’s fertility and why would straight men in prison or in pornographic movies be able to have sex with other men. If evolution made as much sense as scientists are keen to point out every time they discover something, then there would be no point in making straight men able to have same-sex intercourse. I haven’t heard any argument yet for why would evolution create exclusive same-sex attractions in women.
Evan,
The reason I ask is because some SSA men and women have verbalized that it does not feel “natural” to have sex with the opposite gender. That is important. I think it would be interesting to see how these details fit in with the current research. The reason I said “some” is because there are those individuals who have fulfilling sex with either gender and those that feel natural only with the opposite gender.
Ann said:
It’s tricky to listen to people talking about what they look for in a partner, because there’s a cultural lingo about partners and relationships which can spoil scientific inquiry. A researcher might get a lot of universally valid criteria, like ‘similar interests’ or ‘compatiblity’ which can eclipse real gender and orientation specific requirements. Plus, people might not want to acknowledge some feelings. Brainscans showed that gay men feel greater anxiety when they see pictures of other men. However, they don’t report that they look for protection in another man. That feeling is probably differently processed by masculine (gay) brains and feminine (straight) brains. The same feeling could get into greater arousal to discharge stress in men, while another could push women to look for a partner they feel safe with.
But, asking can produce mixed results. A good research design can get some good answers and some insignificant answers. Answers which contradict some hard facts can be useful too, because there’s a lot to understand from biases.
Definitely. Some things should emerge as specific to “attractions to women” or to “attractions to men” (no matter what the gender of the attracted is), while other things should be specific to gender. There might be a few specific to orientation. But scientists believe more in objective measurements than in reports, that’s why I think whatever data they get from asking people will be interpreted against other facts, like the one in this study with hormones.
Reading the posts lately is like being given permission to breathe. Here and on the other threads.
To give an example:
Straight women look for:
– security
– feeling appreciated, emotionally and physically
– stability
– someone who has something going for himself (resources, projects, influence, at least a car)
+ possible fulfillment of other instincts (maternal).
Gay men probably look for:
– someone who overwhelms them physically and emotionally
– feeling appreciated, physically and emotionally
– peculiar experiences
Lesbian women could be looking for:
– good looks
– emotional compatibility
– stability
Straight men target:
– good looks
– sex
– appreciation, having one’s ego confirmed and respected
– experience or stability, depending on the type of woman
Men, in general, target the physical and look for experiences, while women are more in need of security, stability and emotional connection.
This would be the basic requirements.
Evan,
Do you think individuals describing these feelings and the intensity of them could add to what research is currently being done in brain scans? I realize it is more research than science but I am wondering if the two would compliment each other.
Yes, that makes sense. If there were similarities between what a woman and a SSA man look for in a man, and that could be verbalized in detail, wouldn’t that be important to research? Same with what a SSA woman and a man look for in a woman?
Ann,
THat’s the issue. No one can tell how strong another one’s attractions are. We think that it must be the same for both opposite-sex and same-sex attractions, but it might be wholly different. The brain studies showed that gay men and straight women have some patterns in common. Maybe attractions to a particular gender are similarly expressed in the brain and similarly felt by any of both genders. So men and women who are attracted to men might feel similarly towards men, but could process those feelings differently (physically). That would mean that gay men’s feelings and what they look for in another partner is not comparable to straight men’s feelings and what they look for in a partner, to answer in the terms of your original question. There are similarities, in that men are more visual than women, but the difference is, I think, more of intensity than of nature. Just the same, lesbian women probably feel similar attractions to women, but they should be a bit less intense than straight men’s.
Drowssap:
It should be emphasized that this is, indeed, instinctual and not necessarily cultural or experience based. Culture may determine what is currently considered appealing on some level (voluptuous v. waifish or familiar v. exotic), and relationship experiences may influence taste, but certain facial features seem to transcend culture, community, or time.
It has even been found that young infant react to physically attractive faces so it may be that we are born with an appreciations (or comfort) for certain feature combinations.
Evan,
Regarding #115991 – thank you again – very interesting and informative.
My observation has been that most women initially find the appearance of a man either attractive or unattractive and that first impression is temporary and fleeting. Well, unless we are talking about David Beckham 🙂 What we do find very attractive and sustaining is how a man acts and comports himself in various situations. We want someone more intelligent, logical, and decisive than we are. Men, on the other hand, are more visual and tend to be attracted to the object of their affection. Whether it is consciously or not, their goal is to mate with the female. Courting, dating, etc. is done with an end goal in mind. All the things that happen in between these two dynamics will determine if they fall in love and if that love is enduring. I know that the feelings of attraction and love are just as intense with individuals who are attracted to the same gender and hope future research factors in what they say about this along with the other studies. I think it would tell us a lot.
We don’t see physically attractive people.
We see people who are a match for what our instincts tell us is attractive.
Drowssap,
Ok, this is very, very interesting – I know you mentioned it before and seeing it again really makes sense. How can we, or do we, define “instinct” and the role it plays in our lives – where does it come from and where is it located in our bodies? Is it developed and /or can it be interfered with from external sources or is it innate? I think the only two instincts babies are born with are the fear of falling and adversion to loud noises – where and how and why does this other instinct kick in? Any how can it be so different in people who share so many of the same human characteristics?
P.S. – love the term “flatline” 🙂
Ann,
No problem. You always have great questions.
Evan,
Thank you so much for all the information you wrote in response to my question – I am going to read it again (and maybe again) so I understand before responding.
Yes, my gay friends and I sometimes try to figure out what makes straight men “tick”. But we don’t seem to wonder about it as much as straights seem to wonder about gays.
Michael,
Thanks – that is kind of what I thought. It seems to be an ongoing commentary for heterosexuals about same gender attractions and I was just wondering if it was the same in reverse. I thought ,along with all the other things that are going into research, perhaps actually talking to individuals who are SGA about what they find attractive would be so much better than making assumptions and would also be a very important factor in research.
Maybe that’s because we don’t presume that there is something wicked, evil, broken, damaged, immoral, sinful, sick or psychologically disordered about being hetero.
That is the other part of my question – this is why it is so imperative that those doing the research or studies actually TALK to individuals without constraints and then they will have accurate information rather than assumptions which can be so dangerous. If they start with the assumptions you mentioned, research is doomed – if they start with the desire to attain knowledge, their research will be far more accurate.
I agree. But if you don’t have two types of body that can match in some way those instincts, neither beauty gets in the eye of the beholder. You could keep instincts intact but have no appropriate person they can find attractive (because they are mutilated or mutants suviving a nuclear war, for instance). So we can say there is beauty for humans and instincts which can “understand” it (bears and wolves would not get it). Just as male bodies are the contrary of female bodies, so must those instincts be somehow matched to perceive them appropriately. Or maybe this is only logical. Daryl Bem thinks that attractions are not really inborn, but built on basic animal dimensions by using gender segregation.
Eh…. put simply.
We don’t see physically attractive people.
We see people who are a match for what our instincts tell us is attractive.
If we could turn off those instincts neither men nor women would be physically attractive.
Actually I think gay men prove that there is NO SUCH THING as physical beauty. If gay men didn’t exist we might not realize this.
A) Gay men flatline on beautiful women, a fact that most straight men can’t comprehend
B) Straight men flatline or are even averse to other men, a fact that most gay men can’t comprehend.
This illuminates a truth about beauty that is simple but fundamentally important. Physical attractiveness doesn’t exist. If you lack an active instinct to perceive something as attractive it won’t be. All physical appearances are equally neutral.
Beauty is not only in the eye of the beholder, it only exists AT ALL because of the eye of the beholder.
Tim
Ann
Ann is as sweet as they come. I’m sure she read your posts. Sometimes it’s hard to keep track of people and posts in a thread. Plus I think people sometimes agree with a post so they don’t bother to respond because it’s already been said.
But yeah, I’m definitely not an expert on SSA. Quite frankly I’m lucky that I get to practice OSA in my spare time. If somebody wants to understand homosexuality either you, Mike or other gay men are first in line for an explanation of how it feels.
Timothy Kincaid wrote:
I hope so. 🙂
I’m not doing it on purpose, though.
Michael said:
Everyone is interested in how attractions work. You don’t have to be gay or straight to get an idea of how straight or gay attractions work. All you need is observation skills and some data. It’s mostly conjecture, but to quote Simon LeVay, you have to start somewhere. I usually start from facts and then try to see how other facts can be explained. In this case, I started from the gender atypicality of gay people of both sexes, something which is documented in a number of scientific works. In the case of gay men, I noticed this “hybrid look” I was talking about by looking at pictures of gay men and of men that gay people rated as being very attractive to them (they’re all over the internet posted on blogs, websites, online magazines). On average, I noticed this particular blend of masculine physical constitution overlaid with feminine neat features (paedomorphic characteristics). Obviously, it doesn’t apply to all gay men and to all preferences expressed (as Patrick pointed out), because not all gay men may be gay for similar reasons, but on average I think it holds.
But I’m not talking only about gay men here. IMO, heterosexual women can be attracted to this type of looks too, due to the flexibility of their attractions. The world of attractions is more complicated than a masculine vs feminine principle (opposites attract) and heterosexuals and homosexuals being attracted to typical gender traits of the opposite or same sex. Inside each gender category there are many gradient variations of gender traits that we are going to understand a few decades from now on, after geneticists will fully elucidate the interactions by which genes work to produce gender. We have a very poor understanding of gender right now to be able to fully grasp the nature of attractions. I recommend this interview with Eric Vilain, a geneticist from UCLA, to get an idea of the complexities of gender determination, which may have many implications in how typical people really look and feel and how is that reflected in the type of people they are attracted to, even if gender identity and sexual identity may develop separately. The most interesting information from that interview is that there are four types of genes that work to produce gender: pro-male, pro-female, anti-male and anti-female. Add hormones, stir, and watch the results. 🙂
Michael,
well said.
Ann
It seems you missed what I said above, so I’ll repeat it:
Gay people DO talk freely about themselves and what they find attractive and what they are looking for in a relationship.
Please stop ignoring real gay people and instead trying to think of us as some mysterious tribe far away that is full of shame and misery.
Frankly, it’s rude.
And non-productive. If you talk to us instead of about us you might find that some of your presumptions are in error.
Drowssap,
Perhaps Ann still pretends that I’m not part of the conversation as she repeatedly announce for a while. Can you please tell her that she’s mistaken entire about gay people and their freeness to communicate.
Evan,
You never cease to amaze me
Ann: Yes, my gay friends and I sometimes try to figure out what makes straight men “tick”. But we don’t seem to wonder about it as much as straights seem to wonder about gays. Maybe that’s because we don’t presume that there is something wicked, evil, broken, damaged, immoral, sinful, sick or psychologically disordered about being hetero.
We (and I am only speaking of me and my friends) think of it in the same way that we might wonder why some people like strawberry ice cream and some don’t. I listen to what straight guys say they find attractive. For straight men, it seems to have a lot to do with breasts. As someone who was weaned decades ago, I have never quite understood what all that fuss is about… 🙂
Patrick, Michael,
Do men with same gender attractions ever wonder what attracts heterosexual men to women or women to men? Is it ever discussed, theorized, analyzed, or even thought about? I’m just wondering if there is the same interest level that has been expressed about same gender attractions.
Evan, unless you are gay, how the heck would you know what we are and are not attracted to? Lots of people study us and guess about us and theorize about us — but unless you have lived inside the body and mind of a gay man, it’s all conjecture.
I agree with Patrick when he said: “I think it is rather obvious that the conclusion you are drawing here is more a product of your bias than anything. Just because you cannot see male beauty (poor you) doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.”
Evan.
You admit to having a bias about not believing in a ‘male beauty’ as opposed to ‘female beauty’ – and then you go on to say that gay men project a beauty dimension onto men (which you claim is a feminine feature).
I think it is rather obvious that the conclusion you are drawing here is more a product of your bias than anything. Just because you cannot see male beauty (poor you) doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Lots of men and women would most certainly disagree with you here. Heck the Greeks even got it down to specific ratios in body measurements to define male beauty.
I am still not clear what a hybrid male is. I think you are taking about masculine body types (broad shoulders, musculature etc) with feminine female features (such as ?)
I know you don’t put much stock into what gay men say they are attracted to (because of their biases) but I myself am attracted to ‘bearish’ type men. If you are not put off by men without shirts (there is little to no nudity there) – visit shutterbear dot com and let me know what feminine features you see in the faces there. I am not being argumentative here – perhaps as you point out I just cannot see it .
For some reason we know what we like and we know it from a very early age.
Drowssap,
Do you think if this information can be discerned and shared freely as it is with heterosexual relationships, it could be an important part of research? For instance, all throughout history, men and women have talked about love, attractions, relationships, differences between the genders, etc. and I am just wondering what can be learned if individuals who had same gender attractions and/or are in same gender relationships could talk freely about themselves and what they find attractive in the same gender or what they are looking for in relationships. Something tells me it might tell us alot and could facilitate the current research.
Even blind guys know what they like. I’m pretty sure that mentally retarded guys know what they like. It’s like a compass.
Ok, but how? Wouldn’t this matter in research?
Women… still a mystery.
Thank you for noticing – I’m glad we are still having this effect 🙂
Ann,
I thought about this topic a while ago. There is one study done by Bailey and colleagues in 1997. It’s called “Butch, Femme, or Straight Acting? Partner Preferences of Gay Men and Lesbians”. Although, according to previous research, gay men are on average more feminine than straight men and gay women more masculine than straight women, both categories tend to rate themselves as being gender typical and to look for the same typical qualities in partners of the same sex. It looks like a bias against the type of traits which are characteristic of the opposite sex. Better yet, they are biased towards rating themselves similar to the type of partners they are attracted to. That’s a bit paradoxical, considering that on average both gay men and women are more atypical than not.
In my opinion, this issue is a lot subtler than researchers are able to pin down right now — because they lack the tools. Asking subjects to rate themselves for gender typicality is more interesting from the bias point of view than from an objective one. Most gay men, for instance, tend to usually rate themselves as being muscular and to look for a similar trait in a partner. But this trait can be acquired by effeminate men too which might make them rate themselves as being masculine, although other components of their appearance affirm the contrary (I always say that the neck tells the truth…). I think that, judging by physical appearance and by preference, male homosexuality is rather oriented towards hybrid-looking men rather than typical men, who actually are not attractive. Well, this is my opinion, that there is no actual “male beauty” like there is “female beauty”. What women, on average, rate as physically attractive in men mostly shows qualities related to typical male “services”, like protection. So women rate higher men who look taller, physically bigger, and have a coarser look. On the other hand, women probably rate lower men who are taller but wiry and dainty looking. There is, however, a growing trend among men to focus on their appearance, due to pressures coming from fashion and the media. It’s like a new ground for competition which encourages men to enhance their looks in ways that before were considered feminine. What was metrosexualism some years ago now is mainstream popular culture: more men are into fashion and looks than before. I think this lead to the fashion & media business promoting more male stars who are more hybrid looking, in a way that a few decades ago was considered gay looks. Probably for the first time, media promotes male stars who are no longer straight-looking as opposed to gay-looking. I wouldn’t rate Keanu Reeves as a straight-looking guy, but he has hordes of female fans.
Anyway, I was arguing that this new male archetype promoted by the media is more hybrid looking than before, which is very convenient for businesses which aim to thrive on making men think about themselves in terms of self-enhacement and “beauty”. But in scientific studies, males rated for attractiveness have traits which have secured a robust evolutionary advantage, like capacity to protect a female and their offspring, physical ability to secure resources, etc. Not much room for “cute” traits, as many gay men call some men they are attracted to. So, to return to your question, in my opinion, men attracted to same-sex individuals are more likely to be attracted to hybrid-looking men who have masculine body constitutions but facial features and physical neatness which combine masculine size with feminine characteristics (paedomorphic, juvenile traits).
It doesn’t matter very much how raters label what they are attracted to in a same-sex partner, because they tend to project the desired gender dimension onto all other aspects they are unconsciously attracted to and which might be more subtle to measure and explain. I think there is a good measure of attraction to strongly ambiguous features than to ordinarily typical ones (this might explain some results from brainscan studies, because the amygdala brain area is more activated on ambiguous stimuli). In conclusion, I think gay men project a “beauty” dimension, which is a feminine feature, onto a masculine blueprint. Judging by the media they produce, they are, on average, attracted to slightly ambiguous types that they rate to be masculine.
Lesbian women, on the other hand, are biased towards femininity, although on average they are rated more atypical in gender terms. But the main difference comes from the fact that all women have less channelised sexual attractions and greater flexibility — the sexual component is less related to orientation and more to other factors. That makes female homosexuality more of a masculine pattern of exclusive attractions. Brain research seems to confirm that they are more similar to straight men in this respect. Well, not really similar in the same degree of sexual interest in more partners.
I think researchers would do better to study the types of same-sex people that raters are attracted to in relation to how raters can be rated. It’s not reliable to ask them to describe themselves and the type of people they are attracted to. Emotions are typically hard to quantify because they are mixed states of tension and tendency rather than something organised and easy to talk about and describe. I don’t see any tools right now for researchers to see how people actually emotionally perceive “femininity” and “masculinity” and how typical or mixed those feelings are in relation to the type of perceived individuals. I did not reply to Michael Bussee here when he said that he does not need to feel gender “otherness” to become attracted but I disagree with him. It’s one thing what you consciously rate you are attracted to (masculinity or femininity) and really another what the nebulous emotional brain says. For instance, straight masculine men may be visually attracted to more effeminate men because they embody female physical features. Does that make them same-sex attracted? Is their attraction linked to the sex of the person they are attracted to or to the typicality of those gender traits (what gender they belong to)? I don’t see this type of questions reflected in research right now, so neither do I place much value on studies which rely on verbal rating.
Ann,
You ask a good question but I think you may be mistaken about gay folks.
Within the gay community, or at least those gay persons whom one runs into in Southern California, there is no shame in gay conversation. There is no justifying of feelings. The only time you find gay people being defensive about their attractions is when they feel that they are being attacked.
Perhaps that’s because SoCal is so very open and welcoming (or at least the part I live in) or because CA has mostly equality or because one tends only to meet those gay persons who are a bit younger and a bit more comfortable with themselves.
There probably are gay persons who live lives of shame or justification in other parts of the country. And I’m sure some of those in an older generation are less comfortable in their orientation. And those who wish they were heterosexual no doubt operative from an arena of shame and dismay.
But I’d imagine that any participants of studies today would probably draw from openly gay folks. And issues of shame or justification probably wouldn’t hinder the ability of researchers to get free responses.
But I do agree with you, it would be interesting to find out if there is anything different in what gay and straight folks find attractive.
Ann
I think men and women are hugely different on this. But as far as men are concerned I think gay men are just like straight men. For some reason we know what we like and we know it from a very early age.
Even blind guys know what they like. I’m pretty sure that mentally retarded guys know what they like. It’s like a compass.
Women… still a mystery. 😎
Has a formal study or research project been done to see what attracts individuals of the same gender to each other? Perhaps a greater understanding would be had if they were able to speak freely and without shame as to what attracts them to another individual and what they are looking for in a relationship. Is there the “good guy” – “bad guy” dynamic there too? In other words, so much has been discussed about opposite attraction but I’m wondering what we can learn from what individuals say about their same gender attractions. So often they are justifying their feelings rather than opening talking about them and I am thinking a lot could be learned that way too.
Evan
You’re definitely right, this could come up a blank. But it’s super cheap to try. That alone makes it worth the effort.
Even if they find that OSA and SSA works exactly the same that would be a GREAT find.
Drowssap,
If a gay man is left alone in a room and then three other unattractive men come into the room asking for directions, nothing happens (maybe cortisol levels rise a bit). But if they ask him to help them move some furniture, testosterone levels might go up if he jumps at their proposal (if the guy is in good health).
Masculinisation probably varies within the same category of gays and so do baseline levels of testosterone (independently of orientation), so if you repeat this experiment with women asking gay men for directions you might get variable results and not much correlation with sexual orientation.
But if two types of women ask them to move some furniture for them, T levels will probably go higher as they prime themselves for a manhandling approach to big stuff.
On the other hand, if the studied gays encounter some other attractive men, their T levels might go higher for different reasons. There are many reasons testosterone levels can vary.
But sometimes research can stumble upon unexpected results. So it’s good to have this experiment done for the sake of having it checked.
PS. Increased salivary testosterone levels in women during ovulation is correlated with increased attraction to masculine faces. What does that mean? 😯
Ann
Sadly I am all to aware of these on a deep personal level. 😎
You could be right. It would be interesting if all men had a testosterone surge when they met a woman. It stays high in straight men but for gay men it falls off after a minute or so. Oh man… this could go so many ways. And it’s cheap enough to test 100 different ways. This one is gold.
I mean they could find that gay men show no testosterone surge or even a decline in the presence of women. That would be just as interesting. Whatever way this goes it’s awesome.
Timothy Kincaid
I guess that in this study the guy had to talk to the woman for about 5 minutes for the testosterone to surge. How it might work… I have no idea.
Realistically I bet it won’t surge for gay men. But I found it fascinating that the guy didn’t need to be attracted to the women for a T surge. That’s why I think there is a decent but still outside shot that gay men might respond similarly.
I don’t think men would automatically notice a 10% testosterone surge. It wouldn’t feel like attraction. They would just feel more “testosteroney.”
BTW, interesting you should write that. The actor who played Doogie Howser came out of the closet a little while ago and he said the same thing. In fact another guy… the guy who dated Lance Bass told a similar story on the Stern show. He said he had girlfriends at first, the plumbing worked fine but then he switched because he knew he was gay. Come to think of it Stern asks pretty much every gay men if they’ve had sex with a woman and nearly all of them say yes. It’s usually the general story. It felt good physically but there was zero attraction or it felt empty or something along those lines.
Figure. The fibonacci sequence. We see a figure that has that ratio ( I forget what it is) and we call that attractive. We do it subconsiously all the time. Just a thought.
Here’s the kicker. If we’ve had a pleasant sexual experience with someone who does not fit that perfect model – then we may immediately have arousal only to have it cool down because the figure doesn’t match that pleasant expereince.
Whatever it is – boys and men tell tall tales about almost everything.
Drowssap,
I’m sure you have heard about “mood killers” for a couple who are on their way to completing a sexual act – baby crying, phone ringing, knock on door, etc. A man might get the instinctual signal to produce testerone when encountering a woman and then consciously, for whatever reason, understand it is the gender that is not compatible with him and that becomes the mood killer and interferes with the completion of a sexual act with the woman. It seems both are integrated in heterosexual men but distinct in homosexual men.
Drowssap,
And if we are factoring in instinct, isn’t this the way the animal world works? Their instinct kicks in subconsciously without any thought to emotion or whether the female is attractive, etc. – very interesting. It is only when that instinct is blocked or hindered by the sexual act not being pursued or completed that brings up the questions.
Or we could ask gay men. Now that’s a revolutionary idea!!! 😉
From what I hear, when very young some guys could have sex with pretty much anything. And after that it involves a WHOLE LOT of fantasy. But I’m not a good source… I’ve no experience to speak from.
I think it would have something to do with the way in which the brain “perceives” the presence of the woman.
Tests suggest that peripheral vision responds differntly by orientation. So we can tentitively rule out vision.
And if it’s by scent, tests have shown that straight men and gay men respond differently to female sweat and to (if ya believe in them) pheremones.
So I’m not sure how the brian would “know” there’s a female in a way that would cause it to swing into gear. I’m pretty sure not not taste or touch and audio doesn’t seem very likely to me.
What other way would the brain sense the woman?
Maybe this is why some gay men can be married and have sex with women
A) On a sensory level they aren’t attracted to women
B) However, other secondary physiological mechanisms (like a testosterone surge) swing into gear in the presence of a woman. Maybe that’s just part of being a man.
Ok… I’m getting ahead of myself. 😎 I’ll wait for the data.
Ann
Well, thanks for your kind words. I pretty much throw darts at a board, if anything sticks I’ll go with that one and forget all of my earlier misses. 😎
That would be the absolutely fascinating part. From a purely hypothetical standpoint the brain might have a mechanism that says, “there’s a woman, increase the testosterone.” It wouldn’t know why this works, but it’s effective and the trait spreads around the world. But this trait might not be integrated with attraction per se. It doesn’t matter if the woman is attractive or not, it just senses a female. So a man with SSA looks at a woman and feels zero attraction. But on a different level his mind is still looking at a woman and it swings into gear, “there’s a woman, increase the testosterone.”
Drowssap,
Very interesting points – you have a critical way of thinking that is always worth exploring. If the brain can sense the opposite sex, regardless of appearance (hot vs. homely), and trigger testosterone unconsciously in preparation for sex, then what happens to shut down the desire for pursing and completion of sex with the opposite gender? They do sound like they should be integrated but somehow an interference takes place that keeps them separate.
Ann
Wait a minute let me rephrase that…
The T rise might not have anything to do with attraction AT ALL. These guys weren’t attracted to the homely woman and testosterone went up just like the hot girl.
It might be that the brain senses a woman and triggers testosterone to get the body ready for sex. But that mechanism is totally seperate from any attraction mechanism. If that was true… HOLY TOLEDO! That’s a universe changer.
Ann
I think you are right, and the test will probably show that SSA works exactly like OSA. But what if it didn’t?
What if a totally seperate part of the brain is responsible for that testosterone rise? Attraction isn’t necessarily one mechanism. Being able to split apart our unconscious responses would tell us so much!
Warren
R I G H T O N ! ! ! 😎
Timothy Kincaid
I assume what you probably assume. Gay men will flat line on women and rise on men.
But what if they didn’t? These were women that men didn’t find attractive and testosterone still went up. WOW! What a find that would be if gay men did the same.
Well some kind of level is going up for Drowssap.
But I am more than a little interested in this line of research and am making some steps in that direction. I have a learning curve to get up on this specific protocol but I am pursuing it.
Evan is correct. We do not know exactly what the rise or lack thereof “means.” However, I wonder if sexual orientation would be a predictor as gender was in this one.
What if some gays’ testosterone levels go up in the presence of a woman, while other gays’ T levels remain constant? Does it have something to do with their orientation (Ho) or with gender identity and gender relations in general? Whatever result, it doesn’t say much about orientation being inborn, ingrained or a combination of these two. It could depend on factors that are not related to orientation but to gender roles, if we take into account that attractiveness was not the cause of surging T levels, so the interest was not in the female but in one’s gender status being confirmed.
Here’s another experiment: check T levels when the national soccer team plays against a top competitor and one week after the match. Then see how it correlates with lower or higher interest in soccer. Men who are interested in the competition will have elevated T levels, while those who are interested in something else whether or not they attend that competition, they will have lower T levels than the others. The same with male video gamers. Does that mean that interest (in women, sports of video games) must be present in order to boost testosterone? Nope, it’s competition and gender status that lead to this upsurge. The presence of interest in the object or person is not necessary, interest in one’s gender status is sufficient. Even threatened symbolic status can lead to a rise in testosterone levels as a priming stage for aggression. Just check Dov Cohen and Richard E. Nisbett’s paper ‘Insult, Aggression, and the Southern Culture of Honor: An “Experimental Ethnography”‘ and see this effect.
Drowssap,
I believe people who are attracted to their same gender feel exactly the same excitement and stimulation that opposite gender individuals feel toward each other. What each individual decides to do with this is an individual choice but I believe the intense feelings are the same. I really do not know if there are any exceptions to that but perhaps there are and THAT would definitely be interesting. I think the shift one can feel in attractions come after emotionally knowing another person and not on the initial contact.
Drowssap,
I suspect the results would be very different from what you are assuming. 🙂
Patrick
I must admit that after reading this story I shot past “Attention Deficit Disorder” and went all the way to “Maniac.” 😎
This one is sooooo good, sooooo cheap, sooooo awesome. It’s a perfect test vehicle to discover human response mechanisms.
When I grow up I want to be a scientist.
I think drowssap’s testosterone is going up just thinking about this 🙂
Warren
Holy mackeral, how hard would it be to test 60 ex-gays?
20 talk to a homely woman
20 talk to a hot woman
20 talk to a guy
What if you find that…
No matter what your orientation is
No matter what you find attractive
If you are a man and you talk to any woman at all your testosterone goes up.
That would be a find for the record books.
Warren
Couldn’t you spend a few thousand bucks, run this simple test on 20 gay men, film your conclusion and sell it to a TV producer? People make science/sex documentaries all the time. Find one of those guys and sell your clip to them for use on TV. This one would be awesome. So simple, so inexpensive and no matter what you find it would be interesting.
I found it EXCEEDINGLY interesting that the test woman didn’t have to be attractive. Women in general bump up male testosterone.
If the same test found that gay men’s testosterone jumped in the presence of women… holy FREAKIN’ smokes!
How expensive could a saliva test be? Couldn’t this whole thing be done for a few thousand bucks? Please, oh please, oh please somebody test this one.
Yes, indeed Scott.
I would however, like to replicate this and vary sexual orientation. It would not settle questions of origin but it would add to the literature on sexual orientation related differences (or lack thereof).
Without having read the article in Hormones and Behaviour, I would have to say that the experimental design does not seem to allow the researchers to distinguish between a learned and innate (sexual orientation) response. To me as a scientist it seems a big scientific leap to read it as one or the other.
Perhaps the point of Warren’s question (the second one, taken separately from the first) was to suggest caution in interpretation?
The researchers believe that ” the rise in testosterone may be an automatic and unconscious reaction that has evolved in man when faced with a woman, to prepare him for possible mating opportunities.”
Like Warren, I wonder what would happen if the subjects were all gay males? The same automatic and unconscious response? My guess is yes — which would lend more weight to the idea that sexual orientation (or what some Christians prefer to call “temptation”) is a built in response.