Desmond Morris, author of the Naked Ape, has a new book out called the Naked Man. Not a protocol for your next New Warriors Training Adventure, rather, it is an attempt to apply zoology to human behavior. In this article, Richard Brooks reviews reaction to Morris’ new theory where
…he concludes that men are “made gay” because they retain infantile or juvenile characteristics into adulthood – a phenomenon known as neoteny.
According to this theory, gay men also tend to be more inventive and creative than heterosexuals because they are more likely to retain the mental agility and playfulness of childhood.
With his new theory, he has left the reparative/Freudian reservation.
Morris, who is 80 in January, long thought that absent fathers led to boys and young male adults becoming gay. “[It is] the dominant and ever-present mother theory,” he said. “But now I’m convinced that is wrong, and that it is neoteny which makes people gay. Gays are using what is reproductive or creatively constructive to non-reproductive ends. This is very much a positive.”
Not all agree of course.
His theory was, however, attacked by Steve Jones, professor of genetics at University College London. “It’s arts faculty science to say that gays are neotenous,” he said. “It’s a stupid idea. Where is the real evidence?”
And as if we needed anymore whacks at the gay gene, we read
Most commentators though, including Morris, Tatchell and Glenn Wilson – co-author of the book Born Gay, published in 2005 – believe that the so-called “gay gene” theory is discredited.
Speaking of gay genes, fruit fly sexual orientation is of great interest to all people who like fruit. I, for one, would like it if the little critters would stop being so prolific in my kitchen. At any rate, researcher David Featherstone is pretty excited about the discovery of a gene he called genderblind (GB). GB is involved in distinguishing male and female and with some laboratory manipulation can make straight flies gay.
Putting the two studies together…well, I will leave that to you and Dave Letterman.
H/t on the neoteny article to Jayhuck
Evan,
It sounds like you are doing a great deal of speculating! 🙂
Let’s not try to dilute the topic until it gets lost in general human traits. If you look at recent studies, they already start from the premise that on average gay men are more feminine than their straight counterparts. This neoteny hypothesis builds on the concept of paedomorphosis, which posits the existence of bio-evolutionary similarities between females and children’s physical make-up. They extend this idea to SSA-ed males who, on average, are more feminine than OSA-ed males. Of course, there is a world of differences in other ways between females, children and SSA-ed males, but this hypothesis looks at the commonalities and how they are expressed even if in different ways, according to sex or age. Childlike males may only share smooth appearance and coy demeanour with females, but share playfulness with children and emotional empathy with both females and children. It could the same thing expressed differently, according to other variables.
The relation to the Freudian idea of ‘arrested development’ would have to be inferred in a history of scientific ideas. Freud had technologically and scientifically limited ways at hand to examine this issue and others.
Yes, however the trait could be more specific, on average, to homosexuals. But then, there could be more paths leading to the same thing, inasmuch as it’s about intra-gender differentiation.
Eddy,
thanks for the chuckle.
Eddy,
In general I don’t like to presume I know how someone is defining something when someone hasn’t told me what they mean. I’ve been burned many times before for doing such a thing.
As for “So, you can have ‘creative’ in a vast assortment of people…it will express itself differently but it is always that blend of imagination and striving for something new. A creative cook, homemaker, gardener, thinker, teacher, pastor, artist, salesman, activist, blogger, leader, therapist, scientist, musician, entertainer, etc.”
I couldn’t have said it better myself or agree more 🙂
Jayhuck commented on this article saying: The other problem with this article is that no one defined the word “creative”? What types of creativity are we talking about? Scientists (including psychologists) often have to be as creative as people we label as “artists”. There are so many different “types” of creativity its hard to know if this article is talking about all of them.
They didn’t need to define ‘creative’ since they were using it in its well-defined sense. Talking about people who “have the quality and power of creating”…’creating’ is “to bring into being; cause to exist; produce”…it is having things ‘evolve from one’s own thoughts or imagination’.
So, it doesn’t matter whether you’re a thinker or an artist; it matters whether you’re a creative thinker or a creative artist. You can be a thinker who digests the works of others and the writings of the ages only to transcribe them…high end on the thinking, low end on the creativity. Or it could be a thinker who wants to find new ways, new answers, new perspectives. This thinker would peruse the same materials but with an eye to discovering a new truth, a link not before seen, a pattern for a new way of looking at things. The creativity rather than the thinking is their driving force.
Likewise there are artists who, while gifted artistically, aren’t’ really that creative. They replicate or imitate rather than bringing something fresh from their imagination.
So, you can have ‘creative’ in a vast assortment of people…it will express itself differently but it is always that blend of imagination and striving for something new. A creative cook, homemaker, gardener, thinker, teacher, pastor, artist, salesman, activist, blogger, leader, therapist, scientist, musician, entertainer, etc.
I tend to agree that gay people, as a whole, tend to be more creative than straights. But, I have absolutely no idea which came first! Do the pressures of raising a family squelch the creativity of many? No time or energy left to create? Do gays simply want to hold onto seemingly ‘childish imaginations’ or do many see a real value of an imagination both as a stress reducer and a way of inventing new things. (The latter is my defense! My humor has been judged ‘certifiable’…goofily cerebral. And if growing up means I have to let that playful side go, then I wanna crow “I’ll never grow up”.)
Off the wall: Today we got a memo from the company president’s assistant announcing a Holiday Luncheon next week where we will have the opportunity ‘to enter special drawings’. I purposely misinterpreted her wording and, a few hours later, handed her a ‘special drawing’ saying I’d like to ‘enter it’. It was a very rough sketch of a cabin in a woods next to a pond. I am very creative but I am not an artist by any means. The combination of the word play and the child-like drawing sent her and two others into hysterics. Soon, we were imagining dozens of ‘special drawings’ covering the 6 refrigerators in our break rooms. As she headed for the door laughing, I quipped “Think nothing of it; that’s why they call me ‘Special Ed’.”
(BTW: It’s not my style to chum-up to higher ups but Betty and I see eye to eye…she’s just over 5′ tall, like me. There tends to be an instant bond between people who are ‘super short’.)
According to this theory, gay men also tend to be more inventive and creative than heterosexuals because they are more likely to retain the mental agility and playfulness of childhood.
Me? Playful?
Evan,
Again, rights should not be based on research and research should not be tailored to rights — do we have to find out only things that comfort us?
This is true – I know of no one who posts here regularly, especially Timothy who would disagree with this – but it needs to be expanded to include research that is tailored to a person or group’s own religious or or political ideology.
Evan,
Regarding arrested development, you never responded to my questions about whether this term is actually synonymous with Neoteny or not. I think you might have rushed to assume this. Having childlike qualities (something that I think would be good for so many of us to have) isn’t really the same thing as suffering from arrested development is it?
most creative people I know are less happy. It seems great things come at a great price.
I’m assuming this goes for the creative heterosexual as well as the creative homosexual, right? here is an additional way of understanding the people you know who aren’t happy – Are creative people possibly more self-aware? – sometimes ignorance is bliss.
The other problem with this article is that no one defined the word “creative”? What types of creativity are we talking about? Scientists (including psychologists) often have to be as creative as people we label as “artists”. There are so many different “types” of creativity its hard to know if this article is talking about all of them.
As for personal experience – I live in a very artistic community and I have to say that the majority of the creative people I know are very happy.
There are many problems with this idea, not the least of which is that this article doesn’t PROVE anything – but it is interesting.
Ok, so bisexual fruit flies are just 1 chemical away from being heterosexual. Does anything else work like that?
Sure, probably lots of things. Here is a recent example.
Brain Chemical Closely Tied to Narcolepsy
http://www.dailyadvance.com/health/content/shared-auto/healthnews/somn/517910.html
“mouse study cements a link between narcolepsy and a chemical that serves as a brain messenger”
“Narcoleptic mice that were given the neurotransmitter orexin were miraculously cured of the disease.”
In the case of Narcolepsy genes play a roll in susceptability but the cause lies in the environment. Humans have around 30,000 specialized neurons that produce the neurotransmitters that regulate our sleep patterns. For some unknown reason a virus learned how to knock these cells out like a smart bomb. When the cells are gone they can’t produce the neurotransmitters and people get Narcolepsy. Orexin replaces the missing chemicals.
A slightly more detailed link on the fruit fly discovery
Fruit Flies, Homosexuality Is Biological But Not Hard-wired, Study Shows
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071210094541.htm
I believe they will find the same general thing is true in sheep and humans.
Evan
I hope they figure it out too, for the sake of those interested. No doubt flies, sheep and humans are different. I believe this might be the answer or at least a huge step in the right direction. Whoever figures this out will turn into a rock star overnight. I’m sure that fact isn’t lost on the research community as they get closer to unraveling the mystery of SSA.
Yep, man, I have to say I really admire your optimism. I hope you’re right and we are too busy listening to lab nerds in their excitement to make things more and more complicated. :)))
You are right, they already pointed out that this simple mechanistic model of sexuality could work for many other species, but they were very skeptical about finding similar triggers in mammalians. It seems the latter have greater sexual dimorphism in brain anatomy and greater variability in experience which accounts for the same variability in brain anatomy.
I mean, these flies have only four pairs of chromosomes! But again, 50% of their protein sequences have mammalian equivalents. It might be.
Timothy,
No one here said that gays are immature, although it may have looked as if it was implied. You can find whatever word you can feel comfortable with in associating with this idea of ‘arrested development’, which is not yet empirically substantiated, it’s just an opinion shared by some people, more or less educated in these matters. Of course, apart from trained thinkers most humans are prone to making secundum quids in their reasoning, no one is safe from that, it’s part and parcel of our thinking in patterns. All you have to do as an opponent of this idea is to come up with discordant patterns.
Jayhuck found this story reference-worthy although there was a risk of it being given a different spin than his. It shows he found some positive points in this neoteny argument. Is increased creativity a desirable trait in people? Yes, it is. Would I ever want this to fade away in them? No, but I have to say, as a word of warning — I have another pattern on this: most creative people I know are less happy. It seems great things come at a great price. (Freud wrote about the “sublimation of libido” in artists and thinkers and even resolved to quit sex when he was in his 40s, convinced that any great human achievement is incompatible with an active sex life. Of course, this is only linked to the neoteny argument by the strand of sexuality and creativity.)
Again, rights should not be based on research and research should not be tailored to rights — do we have to find out only things that comfort us?
Warren,
I didn’t mean that all biased people are bigots, but aren’t all bigots biased people????
Biased people are not always bigots. One may have views based on inadequate sampling but not have malice toward the object of those biases.
I may believe bloggers are immature (I don’t but go with me here) and not be a bigot. If I do not hate them or mistreat them, then I do not think my cognitive appraisal, biased as it might be, qualifies as bigotry.
Warren,
Bigotry can occur even when you know your stereotypes or biases have been disconfirmed but you trash the group you dislike anyway.
I’m wondering if in the mind of the bigot, the stereotypes have actually been disconfirmed or not. It seems as if you can always find someone to support your stereotypes and biases.
Warren,
More fun with words:
Bigots are often biased, aren’t they?
And as one of your definitions states above, stereotypes can be evidence of prejudice, right?
WordNet from Princeton defines a bigot as “a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own”
Fun with words:
Bigot – a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
Stereotype – a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment
Prejudice – (1): preconceived judgment or opinion (2): an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b: an instance of such judgment or opinion c: an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics.
I would call the “hey I guess gays are immature” as more of a stereotype or a bias than bigotry. In social psychology, we call it an illusory correlation, e.g., “it always rains after I wash my car.” Actually, check out the link, it may help explain why reparative therapists feel as though they can generalize their experience to all gays.
Bigotry can occur even when you know your stereotypes or biases have been disconfirmed but you trash the group you dislike anyway.
Tim,
Ah yes. Somehow I knew that this conversation would devolve into “homosexuals are immature” and “homosexuals have arrested development”, and “homosexuals are afraid to be adults”, etc. etc.
I knew there was a chance but hoped it might not when I sent a link to the article to Warren.
Ah yes. Somehow I knew that this conversation would devolve into “homosexuals are immature” and “homosexuals have arrested development”, and “homosexuals are afraid to be adults”, etc. etc.
It’s funny. You can recognize bigotry by one’s response to a situation. If a report says, “Ethnic Group A had a 5% increase in arrests”, the bigot says, “see, they’re all criminals”. The logical person says, “what was the population growth? were they under or over represented as a criminal subgroup? is this just arrests or actual increases in crime?”
Morris’ wild guesses are listed and suddenly there’s talk of immaturity. I’ll let each of you decide for yourself if your own responses were bigoted or rational.
Drowssap –
I’m refering to men, for women it might not be so simple
It might not be so simple for men either 🙂
Evan,
I also agree with your intuition and can support it further with something a friend of mine has said about young people in general. They are not growing up. This is a condition that is being recognized around the world. I would have to say I am definitely recognizing it in university students these days. I will admit for myself this has been the route of so much of my SSA. I rejected adulthood and the responsibility that it asked of me. Growing up calls for us to be responsible for our actions and accept the consequences of our choices instead of trying to convince those around us that it was in our genes and therefore we are not responsible, it is just who I am. This is a very difficult thing to do in the culture we are presently living in, but if we do not begin to turn this around we will loose everything.
Evan
The reason these findings are important is because they can be used on different animals. Exposure to a common substance changed orientation within 24 hours. Sheep will be next up for testing. If it works the mystery is over.
jayhuck
Yes, it would theoretically be true both ways. 1 Neurotransmitter either way. I’m refering to men, for women it might not be so simple.
Evan and Ann,
I don’t believe that this article was talking about “deferred sexual adulthood”.
This article was also quick to point out that Neoteny can be a very good thing.
These ‘findings’ have been around for some time in the scientific community. There’s not much of a breakthrough here, I have to say. I remember I read a study of the neural circuitry function in the male courtship behaviour in Drosophila more than one year ago. Here is one I was able to track and I am sure there was at least another one by Ebru Demir and Barry Dickson from the Austrian Academy of Sciences, published in 2005. They already pointed out that the differences in sexual behaviour in this fly could not be attributed to neuroanatomical differences, since the morphologies of both sexes are the same and the neurons count is very close, so it was only left to neurophysiology to have a say in the differentiation between male and female sexual behaviour. They concluded that sexual courtship behaviour was regulated by a single gene called fruitless (fru), which influenced the neural chemistry of Drosophila males and females and accounted for the observed dramatic differences in behaviour (pursuant vs. pursuee). It’s a mechanistic response regulated by one gene that influences olfactory neurons, which is really far from the subtleties of mammalian sexual dimorphic neuroanatomy activated by a more complex physiology.
Just think about Helen Fisher’s lust-attraction-attachment model of mammalian reproduction to get an idea of what a breakthrough means in nature from insects to mammalians. These flies just smell each other…
As for neoteny, I already pointed out before my impression that Freud was onto something when he used the phrase ‘arrested development’ in relation to homosexuality. Some people here criticised me for supporting that intuition with my own impression. I still believe there is something to this question of deferred sexual adulthood
Evan,
I agree with you.
Evan
Human sexuality is clearly 1000x more complex than fly sexuality. However our basic “urges” or search patterns probably aren’t complicated at all.
Call it a hunch but I believe that scientists will ultimately determine that gay and straight people are virtually identical. Something as simple as 1 neurotransmitter, or a common drug will probably flip the switch one way or the other. They need to try the same drug that worked in flies and try it in sheep. Something tells me we are within weeks/months of somebody testing it out on sheep. If they get a similar result the mystery is solved.
Drowssap –
I’ve read speculation on other blogs (from guys five times smarter than I am) that people with SSA are probably just 1 neurotransmitter short of OSA
Or people with OSA are just one-neurotransmitter away from becoming SSA – LOL – where do people come up with this stuff? I’m just kidding Drowssap – I’m ok without further speculation 🙂
Evan,
I don’t know that “arrested development” as Freud understood it and Neoteny are the same thing – are they?
I think this article is interesting though – and, even if this is true – as the studies author’s point out – it can be a very GOOD thing 🙂
I read it again and the gene was a discovery. Interesting. Dr. Featherstone suggests that these flies appear to exhibit some sort of heightened sexual interest that spills past OSA and into SSA.
This makes some sense. In a tough environment heightened sexuality might ensure survival. If some of this spills over into SSA no big deal.
I hereby catagorize this find a HUGE BREAKTHROUGH! 😎
I’ve read speculation on other blogs (from guys five times smarter than I am) that people with SSA are probably just 1 neurotransmitter short of OSA. The fact that one common substance turns bi-sexual flies into straight flies lends some credence to that hypothesis.
Is this translatable to human sexuality? To my knowledge, humans are peculiar in the animal realm for their delayed childhood, long formative period before entering adulthood and leaving ‘nest’. We also have some significant extra neurological load. I have yet to see the flies that would sacrifice their life for their religous beliefs. Some people argue it’s in the genes or in some regions of interest…
As for neoteny, I already pointed out before my impression that Freud was onto something when he used the phrase ‘arrested development’ in relation to homosexuality. Some people here criticised me for supporting that intuition with my own impression. I still believe there is something to this question of deferred sexual adulthood. There are similarities between females’ smooth physical make-up and children’s features (paedomorphosis) which I have noticed in many SSA-ed men. Does he imply that males who go through a form of neoteny or progenesis form a sense of gender in opposition to adult males? I think it’s a hypothesis worth investigating, which adds a new creative input into this otherwise barren field.
From the MP3 about the story
“It’s as if the gender blind mutant flies are overreacting to sexual stimuli and specifically pheromone stimuli and therefore as a result of this sort of overreaction they basically broaden their horizons and go for both males and females.”
You can bet that whatever hormone/neurotransmitter/chemical they used to turn SSA into OSA in flies will find it’s way into sheep and then humans. Time will tell if this is just a great clue or can actually flip the switch in humans
They mentioned it was a mutant version of a gene that created SSA. Was it lab created or did they breed it into them? The videos on the site mention that wildtype flies don’t have it.