The Washington Post in reporting that the Montgomery County Council passed the transgendered bill 8-0 yesterday.
According to the Post article, the locker room provision was removed prior to yesterday’s vote.
Late last week, in response to the outcry and concerns from some fellow council colleagues, Trachtenberg agreed to pull an amendment to the bill that would have specified restrooms and locker rooms as public accommodations in which an individual could choose a room based on the gender identity that the person “publicly and exclusively expressed.”
Taking out the proposed amendment, according to the county attorney’s office and council staff, would allow employers to maintain “current gender-based restrictions” on such public facilities.
I suspect a referendum might be in the offing. It would take 20,000 signatures to get a repeal on the ballot.
Britain is like Japan.
Yvette –
I think you may have made an error here:
“I think *all* of the unisex public or institutional toilets have been connected to sex crime of some description, voyeurism or child pornography, those that exist (in schools) now have matrons in some cases etc.”
Please support your statement with some research that all of the unisex public bathrooms have been connected to a sex crime.
When you exaggerate to this extent, it is hard to believe anything else written. Please be careful in your statements.
Cameras in bathrooms is an entirely different issue to transsexual use of restrooms…I’m also not sure of this connection.
“Do we know of any bathrooms that are truly Unisex in the sense that men and women use them at the same time, AND that rape has occurred in these bathrooms?”
The United Kingdom I can do.
I think *all* of the unisex public or institutional toilets have been connected to sex crime of some description, voyeurism or child pornography, those that exist (in schools) now have matrons in some cases etc.
However in Great Britain very little of that will send anybody to jail. In countries which routinely imprison pedophiles it might obviously be a little different. It must surely have some effect.
Also, in the UK placing a secret camera in a girls toilet is not in itelf illegal. So it is quite common in schools and other places, original photography of schoolgirls in toilets or taking ink out of blouses etc., can be sold in Japan for a lot of cash.
In the UK the number of males associated with U18 pornography is 2.4 millions.
That was before child pornography was criminalized via the SOA 2003. Child pornography web-site usaage, is about 800,000. The Brits use to produce a lot of child pornography for export.
“I read the letter from the lawyers and there seems to be a fear that rapists could exploit this law to their advantage. And then I thought, wait. The rapist (who isn’t an intersex person or a transsexual) would need to ‘go in drag’ to a public place.”
I organized vents in Berlin when the Stasi ran the the ‘other’ place, the ‘bring a shovel’ parties over the wall were 1920s hedonism on a tight budget.
I have to say that this local authority has completely me out-done in strangeness.
I was prepared to go to a gulag for a joke, for fun, for something that was rationed, freedom, not the liberty to flash my penis in the park, or to scare women. I think these politicians are betraying America.
With respect I don’t think MC has stereotypical ideas on gender appropriate dress, they are a radical thinking organization and I am not aware that beards have to be shaved or dresses worn etc.
Obviously anybody will have a free pass to peek, but that would appear to be the price to be paid to protect whatever it is they are protecting.
I am not being vague on the last point, they simply don’t know, they are apparently wide open on the definition front.
They are famous now, which is of course precisely what they wanted.
Eddy,
Please see profiles and stats on criminals and their geographic area of incident. You will be surprised to find out what people do to “get away with it”. What you “imagine” is not what the criminal imagines.
Warren, in 64491 Ann claimed to “know of” an incident in which a man dressed as a woman to enter a woman’s bathroom and rape a woman (as it’s an “experience that’s indelibly etched in her mind” obviously she observed it). In the context of the conversation, I think she’s asserting that the person was trying to appear transexual – but I’ll admit that’s uncertain. They may have just been pretending to be a woman… but then it wouldn’t be applicable to the conversation, I think.
3 or 4 threads same topic…I said this on one of the other ones but realize it should be here also.
Mary-
I realize that rape is a horrible crime. Several of my female friends have been raped…for one of them it was nearly 35 years ago, a year or two before we met. I understand the fear. But Pathia reminded us that there is the letter they are required to carry.
The restroom rapist you’re fearing isn’t the transsexual or the intersex person, rape isn’t what their situation is about. They simply ‘gotta use the facilities”. Unlike men’s bathrooms, women have closed door stalls for all users. Everybody should be able to do their business without anybody seeing anybody else’s anything.
I read the letter from the lawyers and there seems to be a fear that rapists could exploit this law to their advantage. And then I thought, wait. The rapist (who isn’t an intersex person or a transsexual) would need to ‘go in drag’ to a public place. I mean, they’d have to be able to walk into the ladies room without drawing any suspicion, right? So, they’d have to go beyond ‘football player drag’ and really do themselves up right. And, unless they were exceptionally great at transforming themselves into a woman, they couldn’t get away with this stunt within 30 miles of their home…for fear of somebody recognizing them under the makeup. I really can’t see this as a viable possibility.
Do we know of any bathrooms that are truly Unisex in the sense that men and women use them at the same time, AND that rape has occurred in these bathrooms?
Jayhuck,
I’m not sure – the incident I mentioned earlier was not in a unisex bathroom. In fact I don’t think I ever said what the facility was or the details of the incident.
I actually think Unisex bathrooms might be safer because men could monitor other men and women could monitor other women for anything inappropriate and protect each other. The individual who is in transition would not have to worry so much about being in isolation if both sexes were present. The problem would be if there were only two people present in the bathroom and one wanted to harm the other. For the person who wishes to be in a same gender facility and that is breached by another person disguising themselves to be the same gender with the intent of harming them or another, then a very real fear is realized and could have devastating consequences.
I just want to reiterate the point that transgendered people are NOT the same as “cross-dressers.” I think we need to be clear about this.
Jag,
This is a very important distinction and one that should never be confused with the other. In my earlier post I tried to separate the two with an “on another note” distinction.
Timothy – I am not sure what you are referring to. I do not see where Ann said she saw anything like this.
Jag,
How do you tell the difference between a man who is dressed as a woman for less than medical reasons (criminal intent) and the man who is the would be perpetrator and the man who is beginning his transition? How do you tell whether or not the man in transition still has his penis and can get an erection from watching women in the locker room? How can you tell the difference between the man in transition with a penis who is still sexually excited by women and then man who is in transition and has no sexual attraction to women?
You can’t unless you talk with and ask each individual. And a man with male hormones who is taking female hormones is still different than a woman with full blown female hormones. Hormones make us very different people with different sexual responses. It is shown that testosterone is needed for sexual excitement. How do I evaluate where a man in transition is with his hormone regiment? I can’t. And it would be very innappropriate for me to demand that he disrobe to show me his non- functioning penis. (That would be regarded as sexual molestation)
Sorry – no penises in the women’s room.
Timothy,
You exagerating and using that as reason.
Ann,
Does it really happen? Do we know of any bathrooms that are truly Unisex in the sense that men and women use them at the same time, AND that rape has occurred in these bathrooms? I’ve never heard anyone offer evidence to this.
As for me, I guess I really don’t care too much. Like I said, my town has a few unisex bathrooms and has had them for years. We’ve never had an incident in them. If towns or groups of people want to have them, I say let them have them – if they don’t, then don’t have them. Or, as Jag said, just have unisex bathrooms that allow only one person in at a time – that seems to work well.
Wow. The single instance in the history of crime prevention in which a man masqueraded as a transexual for the purpose of raping a woman in the ladies room was witnessed by Ann. Consider the odds.
But I agree. That experience would be indelibly inked in my mind as well.
I just want to reiterate the point that transgendered people are NOT the same as “cross-dressers.” I think we need to be clear about this.
Transvestic Fetishism is a different issue than the transgendered position.
I think the point is, if a man really wants to rape a woman, it won’t matter whether the bathroom is Unisex or open to those in transition or not.
Jayhuck,
I think the point is that it does happen and should be considered when these laws are passed. It is a matter of safety. I think it is also a safety issue for a female who has transitioned to a male to be in a men’s restroom. It goes both ways and the issue of safety is for all involved except of course for the perpetrators.
Ann,
I think the point is, if a man really wants to rape a woman, it won’t matter whether the bathroom is Unisex or open to those in transition or not.
Jag,
I have no problem with transgender people. I have worked with and befriended two and know several. In fact, I am usually the first to report any comments, threats or remarks made about gay, lesbian, or transgender people to HR. That’s not the issue.
The issue is that it increases the risk for women again in public places where we should have a certain amount of measured risk. A locker room, bathroom, etc… where we are undressing and exposing our bodies (presumably in a safe environment) becomes an environment where a woman cannot measure her risk any longer. Lower the boundaries and barriers and watch the criminal take advantage.
Criminal minds are very creative when they seek to fulfill an unmet need. (Just so you know – this is an area of familiarity for me by association with those who prosecute such individuals) And I suggest that people take a good look at the statistics of criminal/sexual violence : places of occurance, victims knowledge of perpetrator, etc..
I am a very angry that those who know me here in this blog have decided to suggest that my concern shows lack of empathy for intersexed or transgendered people and have instead decided that anyone who holds an opposing view to theirs must be intolerant of intersexed and transgendered people. That’s a shame and a real insight into the blindness that others are making decisions on.
How many men who rape (who arguably have issues of control, power, masculinity, etc..) are going to dress as a woman for access? Do you know of such cases and their prevalence?
Jag,
I only knew one but the experience has been indelibly
etched in my mind and I find myself being very vigilent because of it. Yes, men do use this as a cover to gain access to other men, women and children who initially feel safe until that safety is breached by the perpetrator and the cover-up.
Regarding the majority of individuals who are in transition or who have completed the transition, I do agree with what you said and hope they can find all the peace and contentment they are looking for. I don’t have any real knowledge about this subject except for the two people I know who have made the transition – one to have the physical body of a man and the other a woman. Initially they were both very relieved and for all intents and purposes, happy. It is not that way now – too complex to go into but both regret the decision and the emotional pain they felt is still there without any relief and often intensified. One made the transition in the 80’s and the other one in the 90’s. Everyone has their own story and many times it differs from what we assume it to be.
On another note, a professor at a large university here just revealed to my friend (she is dating his son) that he is a cross dresser and his family accepts it. She knew it was true because at the next family dinner, it was discussed just as if they were discussing the weather. He has no desire to transition into a female and is happily married with three sons.
Jag,
THAT, is a good role to assume 🙂
Mary –
In a restroom, in a local mall a number of years ago when I was in college, a man walked into a women’s restroom and raped and murdered a classmate of mine. He was dressed in male clothes, and did not attempt to conceal his identity. It was during the daytime hours.
How many men who rape (who arguably have issues of control, power, masculinity, etc..) are going to dress as a woman for access? Do you know of such cases and their prevalence?
I do know that transpeople are repeatedly victims of abuse – sexual, physical and verbal. They are not “cross-dressers” (people who cross-dress have transvestic fetishism, and experience some level of arousal from dressing as the opposite sex although they do not wish to be the opposite sex).
Transgendered individuals are repeatedly misunderstood, and most often walk among us without us even knowing who they are. Check out Leslie Townsend (type her into google), a beautiful woman who was not a biological one.
If you have an issue with transvestic fetishism, that’s one thing, but if you really have an issue with transgendered people…I think perhaps you need to do a bit more reading. A great read? “Becoming a Visible Man” by Jamison Green.
Transgendered individuals have more to bear than I can imagine, I suppose I see my role as a fellow human in this world to try to make it a safer place for all of us.
Mary,
I will also note the incident I spoke of above occurred when I was homeless. Private bathrooms were not an option for me.
My parents forced me into conversion therapy as a teen, I rejected it and was kicked out disowned at 17 over the matter. I was homeless off and on again until I got into college at 24. Technically I am intersexed AND transsexual. I was assigned at birth, then rejected that later. My parents did not agree with that rejection.
The likelihood of young transsexual experiencing attempted murder is something like 1/10. I have lost so many friends, we are dumped in back allies and the police don’t bother to ever do investigations because we tend to be homeless. The men that assaulted me quite intended to kill me, and the police refused to even charge them with drunkenness. Of course, everything is statically anecdotal, doing statistics on a population that is 1/100000 the country who tend to be homeless isn’t exactly a walk in the park.
That is very typical with police behavior involving transpeople, it is one of there reasons we live on the fringe, we cannot even trust the law to protect us, because we are freaks.
A few years ago, a transwoman was hit by a car in washington DC, when the EMT’s noticed she had a penis, they stopped treatment to laugh at her. They continued to laugh and mock her until the bystanders started screaming at them to do their job, the girl died at the hospital. I can’t count how many stories like this I know, it is sickening and disheartening.
Mary,
I am intersexed, not a man.
The count of unisex bathrooms in this area is about zero. I haven’t seen one anywhere.
Timothy – before you take my statment out of context again – I am saying that I have seen women engaging in sex in restrooms at a lesbian bar/gay bar. Yes – I did see it – Yes, I did walk out.
Timothy – I was suggesting women having sex in a restroom.
Pathia,
If you are in transition then go to a private bathroom or go to a unisex bathroom which I suggest.
Pathia,
I take it you are a man and were in a men’s restroom. Hence my concerns. Men are usually the perpetrators and I don’t want them in my restroom. I am soooo sorry you had that experience and the experience of the inept police officer.
Jayhuck,
Please go get some education on rape before you make such comments.
Mary,
What if there is no Unisex option? I do understand your concern, but if someone wants to hurt you, they are going to find a way to do it – Unisex restroom or not. We have a few unisex restrooms in the town I live in and there has never been an incident in them. I understand why some women might feel uncomfortable in them – heck, I’m sure some men are uncomfortable in them as well – but let’s not allow our fear to control our decisions.
I have never seen a Craig incident in a woman’s restroom between women – except of course in a lesbian or gay bar
With all due respect I very much doubt that you have witnessed any women having a toe-tapping session in the women’s room of a gay or lesbian bar. Really now, what’s the point of insinuating that you have?
Mary,
Unisexed bathrooms are simply not everywhere. I have been assaulted and nearly raped by entering the mens room more than once. The cops just laughed at the incident when I tried to get them to do anything about it, I was just a ‘bitchy queen’.
By forcing me into the men’s room, which is what is usually done, I will be subjected to this again and again and again. Eventually I WILL be raped if it continues. I don’t know if there are any actual studies, but the amount of transgender and intersexed people I know that have been raped is far higher than the natal women. My anecdotal experience is about 3/4ths of the trans/intersex people I know have been raped or sexually assaulted, while about 1/4 of natal women.
This is why they are so worried and want these protections. I understand your concern, but you are in a round about way condemning us to rape by doing so.
I know Jim has his own opinions on who is disordered, but is there some objective science that says this is really a disorder? I’m just curious.
As a woman, I am always aware of my surroundings and what could become an easy target. Removing my undergarments to urinate is just one less step a rapist in a public bathroom has to go through – and then knock down or through the flimsy door. This is not about discriminating on the basis of anyone’s politics or lifestyle choices. It’s about the reality of public safety for children and adults. (I have never seen a Craig incident in a woman’s restroom between women – except of course in a lesbian or gay bar)
Men in one restroom, women in another and if you are intersexed or in transition then take the third option of the unisex.
I dislike Jim Phelan’s un-Christlike contempt for people who are born intersexed or who are postsurgically transgender, but I agree with one point:
Restrooms are not an appropriate place for nudity outside of the closed stalls. Why not legally prohibit nudity in restrooms outside of the closed stalls? And why shouldn’t all public bathrooms, thus regulated, be unisex? What difference does it make whether the person washing hands at the sink next to mine is a man or woman??
“Opponents focused on a component of the bill that would prohibit discrimination in public accommodations. They said the language in the legislation was too vague to prevent male cross-dressers or drag queens, for instance, from taking their clothes off in a locker room next to women. ” This is interesting, public accommodations are an option. I don’t see how this violates personal choice. People should be able to change where they want. There is always the stall option. But with people like Sen. Craig, that’s not even safe. These transpeople are disordered. But, we can’t discriminate against people with mental disorders from using the public facilities. The bottom line is that parents need to supervise their kids in public facilities to prevent molestation and flashing. And, people need to go in and do their thing (#1 or #2) and stop staring and tapping their feet and wash their hands before they leave.