More on sexual identity therapy and values

80 thoughts on “More on sexual identity therapy and values”

1. Warren,

   I have appreciated your input over the past few months and gained a lot of insight into why I have struggled for so many years with my SSA. I have also come to the realization that I must not encourage those feelings in any way in my life, but must turn to support from my faith community in dealing with any going temptations.

   I have also come to realize that I do not need to further feed those temptations by listening to others who have chosen to accept that there is nothing more that can be done. Homosexuality and heterosexuality are not one in the same. One provides a natural life giving power to us and the other can only provide a sense of fullfillment in an artificially created environment. It may feel natural to someone who wishes to live there live that way, but it has become increasingly obvious that a great deal must be ignored inorder to find that balance. I am not prepared to ignore the many reasons why I may have these attractions in order to believe they are innate or unchangeable, because if I do that I would think it would be very difficult to say that anything human beings do to each other is unacceptable. I believe I have made many mistakes, but I also believe that Christ has offered much in the line of forgiveness for these mistakes, but he does still call me to avoid making the same mistakes again. Sadly, I was trapped in that pattern for many years because I was led to believe there was nothing I could do to alleviate the pull toward these temptations. Now I realize there is much that I can do and the first step is to surrender my will to his. It has always been my will that has gotten me into trouble. My attempt to justify the behavior. I have stopped doing that. Whether that means my SSA will deminish or disappear only time will tell. I know it has changed a great deal.

   I want to thank you for the help you have given but I must leave this discussion now to focus on more rewarding challenges.

2. Micheal –

   A brief word “Our most inimate experience was holding his hand as he died. We always were intimate and never stopped being intimate. Sex was part of it, one way we expressed it, but was not the basis of it.”

   That was beautifully written and I appreciate you sharing that. It certainly speaks to the intimacy and beauty that is shared with opposite-sexed couples as well as same-sex ones.

   And on that note…you stated that you would “love” to marry your current partner? What stops you? A quick drive to Canada and it’s as legal as can be. Sure, it is not recognized at home…interracial marriages weren’t for a time either….but committing in whatever way you feel led to do is important.

   Committing under God is not bound by the legal restrictions of the land.

3. ANON asked “where is the science?” in reference to the APA’s stance on conversion therapy. I have another question for you, why aren’t organizations (like NARTH or Exodus) that claim conversion is possible doing any research?

   If you were to say the APA is biased against conversion therapy I would agree. However, I do believe if you were to produce some valid scientific research showing change can occur, you could sway the APA’s stance. So my question is why aren’t the supporters of conversion therapy producing such research?

4. I think you are correct when it comes to direct legislation.

   Here is how influence can be applied. By the professions changing ethics codes and standards of practice, they in effect change state laws because states simply rely on the professions to set these guidelines. If the professions say to people in conflict, your only mentally healthy alternative is to come out as gay, then the legal landscape becomes very tricky for anyone who works within a client’s values framework – even the one I have advanced. It is an indirect route but it can be very effective. I suspect the HRC and similar groups would support the professions making these steps.

5. Ryan,

   You talked in length without addressing my point:

   If you remove same-sex attractions from a homosexual person you do not end up with a heterosexual.

6. Warren,

   While I seldom agree with the language of HRC, I think you are misreading shields.

   And at the Human Rights Campaign, we believe the only choice there is about being gay is, you know, whether or not you choose to be open and honest about it, if that’s how you were born.

   Shields believes that the only choice that brings happiness is to be openly gay. I don’t necessarily think that is correct.

   But neither Shields, myself, or any other gay leader or organization is making ANY political effort or supporting ANY political agenda that would in any way force ANON (or Haggard, or Chambers, or any ex-gay) to live in any way. There is not, to my knowledge, a single piece of legislation presented, supported, or even conceived that would place any limitations on ex-gays. I wish the same could be said for Exodus, Focus on the Family, and the other ex-gay ministries.

7. Timothy wrote:

   I don’t believe that is the case. While there are, no doubt, some individual instances of ex-gay individuals that support equality, I know of no organizations, ministries, or leaders that support equality. I do know that some wish to de-politicize the effort but I challenge you to name a single leader in the ex-gay community that publically supports gay people having equal access to civil institutions such as marriage and military service.

   The ex-gay leadership does not speak for all ex-gays anymore than the Pope speaks for all Catholics or Jerry Falwell speaks for all Southern Baptists. Just as their are pro-choice Catholics and pro-artificial birth control Catholics who are denigrated by Catholics who support the party line, there are ex-gays who do the same. In other words Tim, it is a mistake to generalize attitudes based on social and religious “labels”. There are ex-gays who believe the institutional church is hypocritical since it denies gays the same rights it gives their members who have been married and divorced multiple times, or just live together.

   Unlike Catholics who oppose their church’s official stance, ex-gays who oppose the “party line” are demonized as wolves in sheep’s clothing so they keep their political opinions to themselves, therefore you will probably never find an organized ex-gay group that supports gay marriage. Of all the ex-gays I personally know none oppose gays in the military and based on my personal experience with the institutional church I can understand why most ex-gays who support equal access under the law do not publicly verbalize their support. I have been called a wolf in sheep’s clothing by ultra conservatives only because I oppose Stephen Bennett.

   Michael wrote:

   And YES, when it comes to letting clients know what science does and does not show about changing sexual orientation, I feel I have a responsibility as a therapist to be honest. I don’t push my feelings on clients. I tell them what we know — and what is still unproven.

   Since I am not a mental health professional and you are, would you answer a question for me. Since 1973 how many studies have been sanctioned by the APA on the effectiveness of counseling those with unwanted SSA? I have found a couple that I would consider biased toward the APA “party line” and a few that have put the clients goal as being more important than the “party line”, which have been thoroughly attacked as being “unethical”. In other words, where is the science?

8. Timothy said in response to a comment:

   Commenter said: What about the polictical agenda of the pro-gays who cannot accept that someone could be happy not living their live in a way that they find disordered by natural standards.

   Timothy said:

   It doesn’t exist – that’s what about it.

   No gay person or gay organization is trying to stop you from living however you like. In fact, most gay groups would campaign for your right to live the life of your choosing.

   Listening to the Human Rights Campaign representative this evening while Alan Chambers was talking, I didn’t feel the love for the choices of folks like Alan. Mark Shields said:

   SHIELDS: Again, absolutely not. Every bit of evidence we’ve seen is that it does not work. And at the Human Rights Campaign, we believe the only choice there is about being gay is, you know, whether or not you choose to be open and honest about it, if that’s how you were born.

   Whether change of orientation is possible for some or not, saying their is only one choice does not seem respectful of those who choose a different happiness.

   I do not mean to pick on Timothy because I believe from his statements here and at EGW, he would disagree with Mr. Shields. However, it seems clear that we have a lot of work to do.

   I would say Alan was very close to a sexual identity framework stance.

   The transcript is here.

9. The disagreement that we have mostly agreed to disagree about here is the nature of biblical teaching regarding homosexuality. David and I are traditionalists on the subject while many commentors understand the Scripture to either be silent or favorable toward some degree of homosexuality. We occasionally get into those issues but they often lead where many religious debates end – we agree to disagree. I follow your theological train of thought regarding the Adamic curse.

10. Timothy,

    Thank you for your observations. I would just like to start by saying that all of us are extremely unique and intricate individuals and that no body is “just like” some body else. I know I am answering you in over simplification, but I wanted to start with that baseline.

    Now as far people in the church seeing people as exactly the same and not embracing the specialness and uniqueness of every individual, I’m sure that occurs and have seen it occur. It is often much “easier” to lump people into one category and not deal with them as unique individuals with special and wonderful talents and abilities. This also happens quite regularly in life outside the church. Our uniqueness as individuals is what makes life interesting.

    My point earlier with temptation is not that every temptation is equal in strength or takes the same form, but that the solution to any temptation is universal. It is ultimately Christ’s power that overcomes any sin tendancy there is. Now Christ also deals with us uniquely in our life situations and what He allows us to go through, but we must all ultimately seek His way.

    Also, I disagree with the statement that once an alcoholic has “overcome” his/her alcoholism he is just like a person who doesn’t struggle with alcoholism. He/She still prone to fits of alcoholism in that the “sin nature is still present in their bodies and will be until they go to be with the Lord. Just because a person has “overcome” their sin tendancies doesn’t mean that that they are going to feel just like someone who doesn’t struggle with that particular sin.

    People who no longer are homosexuals should be treated with care and concern unique to their particular personality.

    It all comes down to believing God that His ways are the right ways, he knows best, and that He will provide the right feelings when we trust His ways. Whenever a sin is being subdued, it doesn’t feel good, but we trust that it is the healthy thing to do and that he will provide the desires that are holy. Which is most often a genuine compassion and care for our fellow humans. Thanks again.

    Sincerely,

    Ryan

11. Hello everyone,

    Thank you for comments left regarding the post I made earlier. Also thank you for the tone of discussion and the thoughtfulness of everyone’s answers. It is much appreciated. I would like to respond with a few thoughts. I agree with David’s four points, stated above, in some situations. I have seen those tendencies in people.(Whether church or non church people) Unfortunately what happens many times with “church people” is that in an effort to change sinful behavior, they use sinful behavior to accomplish this. An example of this in the Bible would be the Pharisee’s on many, many occasions. Particularily the woman who was caught in adultery. When the “church” people demanded justice, Christ extended compassion without condoning the act of adultery. In the same way, that is what I hope I am doing in my life. God makes it clear in His Word that he deeply loves sinful people(which includes everyone ever created) very, very deeply. Hence the salvation he provided on the cross. That is an example for how we are to be to one another. Anyone who doesn’t operate out of love in confronting sin is actually doing more harm than good. The goal as a Christian is to be love to everyone we meet, which means sometimes speaking things that people don’t want to hear in an effort to save people from harmful behaviors. True people might misunderstand or reject, but that is the risk you take. You operate out of genuine care and concern, because God calls us to be love. It doesn’t mean you nag or berate, but you do stand for God’s clear truth while extending the same grace and mercy in situations that we ourselves need and receive from God on a daily basis.

    I would like to answer Timothy’s thoughts in my next post.

    Thanks again,

    Ryan

12. Ryan,

    I would disagree with your premise. I think it assumes that all persons are basically similar and overlaid with specific temptations. That is, if each person were to subtract that temptation (“overcome” it) then they would be in that manner similar to other persons without that temptation.

    An alcoholic that was delivered from a desire for alcohol is similar to someone who has no alcoholism. A lustful person who overcomes lust is the same as someone with healthy control.

    But this simply does not appear to be the case with the majority of same-sex attracted people. If you remove homosexuality from them you do not end up with a heterosexual.

    Take those persons who do claim to have done just that – “overcome” their homosexuality. Other than in just a few examples, these persons could not be described as “heterosexual” in that they do not find the opposite sex to be generally attractive but instead have bonded with a singular opposite sex person.

    In addition to the 4 points David listed above, I believe that this is the far stronger issue. The church is often unable to see that gay people are not straight people with a gay overlay. They think that if a gay person can be “delivered from” homosexuality then he would be just like them.

13. Anon #1 (I think… consider using SOME descriptive.. this gets confusing)

    …many ex-gays fought for equal access and treatment for gays before and continued after commencing their ex-gay journey…

    I don’t believe that is the case. While there are, no doubt, some individual instances of ex-gay individuals that support equality, I know of no organizations, ministries, or leaders that support equality. I do know that some wish to de-politicize the effort but I challenge you to name a single leader in the ex-gay community that publically supports gay people having equal access to civil institutions such as marriage and military service.

14. Indeed, reading studies is my life 🙂

    Seriously, check out the most recent post about love and sex. I wonder if the perspective I outline is a way through.

15. Anon #1 I think): I should have said “some ex-gays” or “some ex-gay groups”. it was wrong of me to generalize and say “ex-gays” as though all folks who call themselves “ex-gay” are the same. I apologize for that. By the way, I think the term “ex-gay” is an almost useless term because it has never been defined and seems to mean whatever the person using it wants it to mean.

    Alan Chamberss of EXODUS has dropped the term and Joe Dallas of EXODUS says it just means “a Christian with homosexual tendencies who would rather not have those tendencies”. He explained that it does NOT mean “ex-homosexual”.

    When I asked why ex-gays would get so exercised by those of us who simply want to live our gay llives in peace, I was responding to another post that asked why EITHER side of this discussion gets upset. I do not understand why my simply being a gay-affirming Christian evokes such antagonistic responses in SOME ex-gays or why groups like EXODUS want to strip me of legal protections.

    And YES, when it comes to letting clients know what science does and does not show about changing sexual orientation, I feel I have a responsibility as a therapist to be honest. I don’t push my feelings on clients. I tell them what we know — and what is still unproven.

    I support their decisions to change their BEHAVIOR and if their orientation changes from gay to straight in the process, that’s cool with me too — even though I have never met such a person. That’s why I like Dr. Throckmorton’s approach — shifting away from “cause” and “cure” and helping clients to LIVE in accordance with their values. If they believe it is wrong for them to act on the gay feelings, I would definitely respect their choice. If you know of any good scientific studies that prove a change from homosexual to heterosexual orientation, I would be very interested in reading them. (I think Dr. T. might like to read them, too.)

16. Michael Bussee wrote in post 7391

    Are you talking to me — Michael Bussee? When have I made incorrect generalizations about counseling, about the possible causes of homosexuality or about ex-gays? Do you have me confused with someone else? Please give some specifics.

    Michael Bussee wrote in post 7426

    But, I don’t know of any good science that proves that we can choose our basic sexual orientation — or unchange it. What we DO choose is our behavior. We choose how to treat others. We choose our values. We choose to cheat on our partners or stay faithful.

    Tell me Michael, as a family counselor do you feel it is your duty to tell those dealing with unwanted SSA that there is no evidence to support one can change their orientation? Although I cannot find the specific post, I think you made this statement on this blog. If I am incorrect then I apologize for an assumption. Although you “don’t know of any good science that proves that we can choose our basic sexual orientation — or unchange it” is confusing. I think what you mean is “or change it”.

    On the other hand I don’t know of any good science that proves any human being is born with a “basic sexual orientation”. What I have found in my research is sexuality is a combination of psychological issues, personality, and cultural mores. Gay luminaries like LeVay and Hammer put it this way “biology, personality, and environment”. For instance, Sparta is often appealed to as a homosexual Greek city state. However, Sparta separated the sexes at age 7 when boys began their military training. Spartan men were required to marry and produce children at age 30. This supports pederasty, not homosexuality. Pederasty is found in many cultures including some in Borneo and pre-Islamic Arabia (where pederasty is still practiced by some tribes) as well as Ancient Greece. Some also appeal to Athens, however anal receptive Anthenians were subject to loss of their citizenship. And no I am not implying that anal intercourse is a universal practice among gay men. Homoeroticism was not universally accepted in Ancient Greece. Now, the foregoing paragraph is not meant to be a definitive analysis of the history of homoeroticism or attitudes toward homosexuality.

    As to your “generalizations” concerning ex-gays, some of your posts are careful to distinguish between some ex-gays while some of your posts and published comments refer to “ex-gays” as a group who oppose your basic human rights.

    From your post 7089

    We also tend to get touchy because folks on the “ex-gay” side are all too frequently the very ones who are trying to strip us of the legal, social and occupational protections we have fought so hard and suffered so much to achieve.

    Regarding the “vice versa”, I can understand that “ex-gays” would get upset at gays who attack their choices and relgious beliefs. I can fully understand that. But, as for why “ex-gays” would “get exercized” by those who simply come to accept and value their homosexuality, I don’t have a clue.

    This is a generalization that denies that many ex-gays fought for equal access and treatment for gays before and continued after commencing their ex-gay journey. And not “all” ex-gays “get exercized by those who simply come to accept and value their homosexuality”. Also the history of Christianity is full of those who got “exercized” by competing theologies. So why should either group get “exercised’ over competing concepts? Because each group thinks they are correct based on their interpretation of God’s word. One group sees their “freedom in Christ” allowing their choices, while the other side see God judging the “immoral” as defined by a literal understanding (or interpretation) of God’s word. However, neither side has the right to judge the other and engage in hate filled rhetoric since in the final analysis God has the last word.

    Go back and read your post 7193, which was addressed to Warren instead of asking me to clarify my email which I have attempted to do starting with my post 6981.

    David, thank you for understanding the purpose of my email.

    Anon2, thank you for your kind encouraging comments. I believe your contribution to this topic will encourage those who deal with unwanted SSA and choose marriage over celibacy.

17. Anon2, I completely agree with your statement: I ALSO do not feel “they should be directed to just accept that that is who they are”. A competent and caring therapist helps a client live in accordance with the client’s deeply held values — and in a way that shows respect for themselves and other human beings. I NEVER “direct” a client to “just accept” anything. That’s not very therapeutic.

18. David & Ryan – Ditto to David’s comments. If I reply as a moralist, I follow you and many of the folks I work with arrive at this place. As a counselor, I think there are enough potential differences that each situation must be taken individually.

19. Ryan and others,

    I think comparing homosexuality to alcoholism is a non-starter. I say this as a devout Christian and a Psychologist. It is just a bad comparison, for a lot of reasons.

    I personally like your use of each of us being given different challenges to face.

    However, same-sex attractions are a particularly difficult challenge for the practicing Christian to face:

    1. The sensations are not very common and are taboo to talk about in their churches.

    2. Narcicisstic disgust for those with SSA is common both inside and outside the church (“it’s OK to hate gays”).

    3. Compassion is not part of the formula for the church when ministering to gays (typically)

    4. Unrealistic hopes for changing attractions become the goal of too many programs (both religious and secular). This remains a possibility, but not a certainty and should not be advertised as such.

    Just some thoughts.

20. Michael,

    Now I could not agree with you more on your earlier comment. Thank you for your clarification. My only concern is when someone who finds themselves attracked to members of the same sex goes for help to a “professional” councellor I do not feel they should be directed to just accept that that is who they are and embrace their homosexual orientation, because as you have indicated there are many reasons why we may have these attractions.

    I am speaking from my own experience here, when years ago I was first starting to find some help with my identity confusion and I was sent to an openly gay psychologist by a professional health nurse. This person could not offer me anything because it was obvious that our value systems differed. I eventually found some Christian couselling that did help me, but it was a long journey back from the added confusion the early councellor created in me.

    All I am saying is that each individual should be allowed to find what is right for them. They should not be told that their religion is wrong and that they should embrace a new way of thinking inorder to find happiness, because just maybe the councellors ideas of what is good is not good for the person seeking help. In the Catholic Church this is called spiritual direction, this allows the person to discover for themselves what they are being called to and it does not negate the presence of God, their creator, or a Higher Power in there live. The main issue I think where we may differ is the idea that I can find truth from within myself versus recognizing that ultimate truth can only be discovered outside of myself along side my own experience by reaching out in community and service to others. I may be wrong. I do believe there is an ultimate truth I just do not think we have found it yet. I will not negate what my religious upbringing tells me because someone else decides to interpret things differently, especially when I find so much of what my faith teaches me does help me to live a fullfilled live.

21. “I know that the tendencies homosexuals talk about, sounds an awfully lot like the tendenacies that I have, to run toward impure heterosexual thoughts, or that an alcoholic talks about in wanting another drink.”

    IIt sounds like it but it’s not. The only thing that homosexuality is “like” is heterosexuality. Gays and straights alike can use their sexuality in selfish, hurtful, irresponsible, sinful ways or they can use their sexuality for good — as a symbol of the love, attachment and commitment that two people have for each other.

    Sexual orientation (gay or straight) is like fire — neutral in itself, neither sin nor virtue. It is how we use the fire. We can use it to warm our neighbor and ourselves or we can set fire to our houses with us both inside,

22. Good Morning Mr. Thockmorton,

    Thank you for your good article about homosexuality and living a valued life. I also am a Christian who is passionatly devoted to Jesus Christ. I agree with you that the answer many social conservatives take regarding homosexuality is to narrow in saying that every case is caused by an inadequate relationship with their father. I do believe that there is probably some truth to that statement, but definitely too narrow.

    I would like to hear your take on the theory that I am about to submit. If you have time, please respond at the e-mail address I provided.

    I believe that all of us are given to certain “bents” or sin tendenacies in our life. Whether we learn those bents or they we are inborn is up for debate, but I do know, that according to God’s Word, we are all born with a sin nature. For some people they might be bent toward alcoholism, for some homosexuality, for some heterosexual fornication. The point being that we all generally have a sin that tends to be a bigger struggle for us individually than it is for other people.

    I know that the tendencies homosexuals talk about, sounds an awfully lot like the tendenacies that I have, to run toward impure heterosexual thoughts, or that an alcoholic talks about in wanting another drink.

    My point being that sin can be very tempting for anybody no matter what their particuliar bent may be. It reminds me of Paul in Romans when he says “the things I don’t want to, is the very thing I do”. I believe that just because God doesn’t remove the temptation, doesn’t mean that we are doomed to repeat it time and time again. It just means that he wants us to be overcomers through dependence on the only thing that we can depend on for true release and freedom. That being Jesus Christ. That is the same conclusion that Paul came to when he said that Jesus Christ can deliver me from this body of death, that is the situation all of us find our self in with our sin nature, that ultimately we can’t conquer without a daily dependace on Christ’s living power that we access through faith. I can certainly understand when a homosexual says that they can’t change this longing or desire inside of them, that can only come through the daily supernatural dependance on a holy loving God. That is true for any of us with any sinful longing.

    So in conclusion, I don’t think this is somehow unique to homosexuals, but to the whole human race. Looking foward to your comments at my e-mail.

    Your brother in Christ,

    Ryan

23. Anon2: You misunderstood me. I didn’t say that sexual orientation was “fixed” at an early age — only that in my own experience, I was AWARE of it very early. I didn’t “choose” it . It was just there. I didn’t “choose it” anymore than hetersexuals “choose” to be attracted to the opposite sex — they just are. My daughter expressed straight attractions in first grade. She did not “choose” her sexual orientation and neither did I.

    You see your homosexuality as “childish” and “addictive”. Many people (gay and straight) aer both these things. But unlike you, I did not have gay feelings out of some sense of inadequacy or to “cover up feelings of insecurity”. Perhaps you did. And I am not putting you down for that. I am just saying that YOUR experience of you homosexual feelings is not what EVERY gay person feels. All of our experiences are unique.

    I also know straights who act out their sexual orientation in a childish, addictive manner. That does not make heterosexuality wrong. It just means those straights have not grown up. The same is true of gays who use their sexuality in immature and aaddictive ways.

    By the way, I do not encourage people to “do what feels good”. I think that sort of amoral and hedonistic approach to sex has caused MUCH suffering for gays and straights alike. I do not believe in “if it feels good, do it.” I believe in “do unto others as you you have them do unto you” — which means respecting other people’s differences and treating each other with dignity and respect.. Gay or straight or in between, we are all God’s kids.

24. Michael,

    I am sorry to have to disagree with your view that orientation is fixed at such an early age. I see the biggest problem for myself was not understanding what the attraction meant. Now that I can see that it is healthy to desire to be accepted and feel like I belong in the company of other men I do not have a need to be attracted to them sexually. This to me is a sign of growing up out of childish ideas. I admit I was caught in much addictive behaviour for many years because I did not feel like I belonged and I tried to cover up my feelings of insecurity, but now that the addictive cycle has been broken I no longer have a need to feel like I can only find fulfillment through sexual relationships. That is very freeing.

    Yes I know many of you will try to say that I am still living out of a homosexual orientation, but I would have to disagree with that. I am living out of a maturity that I never dreamed possible for many years.

    Brigid I could not agree with you more that it is our permissive society that has brought these problems into the family. We seem to be encouraged to do “what feels good” rather than what feels right. If society begins to be a little less condoning of many kinds of sinful behavior families will not have to struggle so hard to stay together. I pray that the father of your children is able to see what he has given up for an idea that is really only present because we as a society have come to want what is easily obtained.

25. Thank you, for your supportive and understanding words. I can’t tell you how much it means to me to have you “get it” about our situation.

    We married before there was a lot of understanding about this problem and I know he felt this was the best he could do at the time. It is very hard on the children, who are all adults now. The youngest was 15, he suffers the most.

    There has always been homosexuality, promiscuity, and infidelity in the human race. But I think our culture and in our time, we have given carte blanc permission to do “what feels good” and that isn’t good for marriages, families or children. We can’t always be happy and sometimes we have to “suck it up” for the sake of those three things.

    I wish it were different but as the Catholics say: “offer it up” and it becomes redemptive suffering. I’ve done my share of it over the years and will continue to do so. My children have given up chocolate for the sake of their father – someday, they believe it will have an impact on his spirit, his soul and he may find a way to live and bear his cross and still be a part of a family. He’s pretty much the swinging bachelor now (at 59) and not much a part of their lives.

    Thanks again. I appreciate you all very much.

26. Yes, Anon2, we DO have “some choice in the matter” — of how or how not to express our sexual attractions. But, I don’t know of any good science that proves that we can choose our basic sexual orientation — or unchange it. What we DO choose is our behavior. We choose how to treat others. We choose our values. We choose to cheat on our partners or stay faithful.

    But I do not believe that we choose the orientation itself. I was FIVE when I first felt it. I didn’t choose it. I HAD it. Or it had me — whether I wanted to have it or not.

    By the way, as a gay man who knows the pain of divorce (for all involved, especially the kids) I COMPLETELY agree with NickC: “married people should make every effort to make the marriage work–for their spouses’ sake, childrens’ sake, and their own sake.

27. Timothy,

    I want to say that there is much selfishness on both sided of this debate. I am sure there are many men who would choose to stay with their families if they were given more accurate information on why they may have these struggles and have councellors who have not decided ahead of time that there is nothing they can do to live a happy life with someone of the opposite sex especially if they have already begun a family. Again is saddens me so much when I hear of these breakups, because I have come to understand how much there is that can be done to live out ones responsibility to ones family if only given the tools to do it.

    I would not encourage anyone to go into a marriage if they are not willing to look at their struggle with SSA in an open and honest way. They should not rely on the media or Hollywood for their answers and science is not altogether realiable either if there is a political agenda behind it. Having said that I am releaved to see that the science is beginning to show that this is not a cut and dry case of innate character traits and that we do still have some choice in this matter.

28. A further thought prompted by Timothy Kincaid’s response to Brigid:

    Anon and some other posters seem to think that when some of us say we would discourage other homosexually-oriented people from entering a heterosexual marriage, we would also encourage those who are already married to consider leaving. In my case, at least, nothing could be farther from the truth. I think married people should make every effort to make the marriage work–for their spouses’ sake, childrens’ sake, and their own sake.

    But for anyone who is not married and considering that step: remember that marriage is a life time commitment. A lot can change over 25 to 50 years, including your own understanding of your religious beliefs and motivations. One thing that seems not to change for most people is basic sexual orientation.

    If you find it a struggle to deal with your same-sex attraction now, don’t expect the struggle to get any easier with time just because you are married. The difference is now that other people can be very deeply hurt.

29. Brigid,

    I am sorry to hear about the breakup of your marriage. It is so sad and I wish that your husband had been able to value his family more.

    But this does raise an illustration of why some gay people – who are genuinely loving and caring and not trying to dictate to others – will sometimes discourage same-sex attracted men from marrying. Your story is sadly far from uncommon.

    In discussing the appropriate decisions by same-sex attracted people, we should not ignore that a poor choice may end up hurting far more than just the stuggler. I support the rights of an SSA struggler to live as they choose, but I would counsel that they not choose to selfishly drag someone else into their battle.

30. Question: Is EXODUS signalling a change in focus as Warren has done? Is Alan Chambers doing the “Throckmorton Shift”?

    I don’t think so. Alan is not saying that one should seriously identify one’s values and accept the outcome of an examination and live accordingly.

    All Alan is saying is that “change” means that you have to change your identity. He’s said more than once that “a gay identity” is sinful regardless of how that is expressed (ie. Side B gay Christians are “living a sinful lifestyle”).

    And I’ll start believing that Exodus is willing to take the Throckmorton approach on the day that Alan turns down the chance to lobby against equality because he respects values. Or on the day that Alan stops talking about “overcoming homosexuality”.

31. Anon (not Anon # 2) said:

    “Would you you agree your assumptions about me are rude? You make incorrect generalizations about counseling, the possible cause(s) of homosexuality, ex-gays, and the religious right.”

    Are you talking to me — Michael Bussee? When have I made incorrect generalizations about counseling, about the possible causes of homosexuality or about ex-gays? Do you have me confused with someone else? Please give some specifics. Regardining counseling, I agree with Dr. Throckmorton’s approach. Regarding the “causes” of homosexuality, Dr. Throckmorton and I agree that no one really knows. And regarding “ex-gays” — I dislike the term because it it never well defined and is sometimes deliberately deceptive. Even Alan Chambers of EXODUS wants to get rid of it.

    Regarding the “”religious right” — I have no problem until certain groups try to take away legal protections and civil liberties that every American citizen deserves. How am I disrespectful of you? I support your right to marry. I respect your right to be celibate. I respect your right to live in accordance with your beliefs. Please tell me how I have been rude to you.

32. To Anon:

    First, while I fully understand that you might want to be anonymous in your comments, could you please use some type of id for posting just so the rest of us can figure out if all the Anons are the same person? Kind of hard to follow a discussion when you’re not sure who’s talking.

    Second, I want to address your complaint that gay people don’t respect the choice of those who want to live as “ex-gay”, however we define that.

    Reading your various posts, I find quite a few contradictions in your own claim to support those of us who are openly gay. On the one hand, you say: “I do not mean to say that you should live any other life other than the one that you find makes you happy” and “I will continue my grass roots campaign to counter the radical religious right. I will continue to promote acceptance for the ‘gay community’.”

    But then you add: “I just want to say that I do not support same-sex marriage. I believe that for some the feelings may be to strong for them to even consider the opposite sex, but this does not mean we should reconstruct the family for their sake. Why should I tolerate “gay pride parades” on my street. To me it is like second hand smoke. It is an attempt to convince others that this is the way you need to live your life if you want happiness.”

    So it seems that you support our right to live by our own moral choice and decisions, as long as we’re not too visible or don’t want too many rights to protect our relationships and families.

    I think the real problem between us, Anon, is captured in your comparison to “second hand smoke.” Frankly, you seem afraid that if you have to see or hear too much from those who are happy as gay, you’re going to be drawn away from your own choice.

    I don’t think anyone in the posts above suggests that you are not happy or that you should leave your marriage to come out as gay. I have no problem supporting you in your marriage and wishing the best for you. The fact that you continue to have a successful marriage does not make me feel in the least insecure about the different choice I eventually made for myself.

    What I don’t understand is why my happiness seems to threaten you.

33. Anon,

    I wish to apologize to you for using the same identification as you on my post. I just realized how confusing this may be. I also want to thank you for some of the things that you have expressed here. I feel it is time that others who deal with same-sex attraction but do not wish to be labelled by some political force had an opportunity to speak out.

    I will not likely be responding here much anymore but I have found this discussion to be very enlightening and it has given me a great deal of peace as to the choice that I have made to stay with my family and to work through the issues relating to this attraction. I do not believe in the “Gay Gene Hypothesis”, it is a political issue. Parts of this struggle may be innate, but as I have discovered a great deal of this can be alleviated if I open my mind to all possible causes for my feeling the way I do. This also opens me up to many healthy and rewarding relationships that I would have missed out on had I decided there was nothing that could be done to change.

    My family is what I am proud of today and I have come to recognize them for the gift from God that they are and no one but God can take that away from me.

34. It amazes me how one person’s narrative of how they have persistently struggled with an issue becomes fodder for firery rhetoric.

    The letter that triggered this long set of sometimes aggressive responses and counter-responses is first personal and certainly subjective. It may be of great use to some and of no use to others.

    I find that most of these firery interactions on blogs have to do with one or two sentences which are extracted from a larger dialogue. In this case a humble and transparent one that calls on us examine where we place our sensations in the context of our identity.

35. Well, Anon, you are mistaken. You think you know me but you don’t Orgasms are great (I think God meant them to be pleasureable.) But, I do value acts of true friendship more than orgasms. Don’t you think it’s kind of rude to make assumptions about people you don’t even know?

    Would you you agree your assumptions about me are rude? You make incorrect generalizations about counseling, the possible cause(s) of homosexuality, ex-gays, and the religious right, my presence as a participant in this discussion by addressing comments to others concerning my email, and then take offense with an email when you have never met me or asked me to expand or clarify an email that was not originally meant for publication and then call me rude. It seems to me than when I wrote that “from my conversations” you should accept my conclusion excludes those who may not agree with me. I concede I should have written “generally speaking the institutional church and the ‘gay lobby’ do not understand..”. I also backed up why I believe what I wrote while all you have done is take offense and ignore all my explanations and have not even tried to refute those explanations.

    My comments have nothing to do with “valued friendships” they deal with living a celibate life.

    This topic is not about you or me, it is about those who seek help in dealing with unwanted SSA and the best way to help them.

36. I was married to a gay man for 23 years. Then he decided to leave. I like the approach Jim took and his attitude about bearing his cross. I was willing to stay married even though the sexual relationship was non-existent. There are three children and an intact family is very important to me.

    I believe that the commitment we made was for life “for better, for worse” etc. and the cross was difficult but I’d carried it for 15 years up to the point when he decided to leave. Then the cross was shifted over to my children because my husband decided not to carry it any more.

    As JIm said, we all have difficulties, not the same ones and I think God gives us what we can handle and that is our obligation. People aren’t much into meeting their obligations anymore, though. He wasn’t.

37. Dr. Throckmorton’s SIT guidelines shift the focus away from “cause and cure” and toward helping people live in accordance with their values — a move I strongly endorse. Now, it seems that Alan Chambers of EXODUS may be doing the same thing. Consider this quote from Alan:

    “”And so when men and women are seeking to find freedom from homosexuality, their number-one goal shouldn’t be to move into heterosexuality — because sometimes they don’t. That doesn’t mean they continue to keep a homosexual identity.”

    He’s clarifying that the freedom he is talking about is not freedom from homosexuality, per se — or even becoming heterosexual — but a change in “identity” — how one sees oneself and what core values one tries to practice. Add to this the fact that Alan has done away with the term “ex-gay” and thinks it should “never be used again”.

    Then you have Joe Dallas of EXODUS admitting the “ex-gay does not mean ex-homosexual” but refers instead to a “Christian with homosexual tendencies who would rather not have those tendencies”. (Notice the words “with” and “would rather not”.)

    Question: Is EXODUS signalling a change in focus as Warren has done? Is Alan Chambers doing the “Throckmorton Shift”?

38. Anon asked: “Can you view a hug from a true friend exceeding the power of an orgasm? I really doubt it.”

    Well, Anon, you are mistaken. You think you know me but you don’t Orgasms are great (I think God meant them to be pleasureable.) But, I do value acts of true friendship more than orgasms. Don’t you think it’s kind of rude to make assumptions about people you don’t even know?

    My lover Gary and I had a very intimate, emotional, sexual and spiritual relationship. There was no sex at all for the last two years we were together because he was too sick. He died in my arms — in a hug. I would trade all the orgasms I ever had or will have to hug him just one more. Try thinking before you say something so hurtful and absurd.

39. Jim, in spite of your kind remarks the overwhelming majority of your responses to my email are judgments based on assumptions of who I am, what I stand for, and what I believe. When I expanded on my short email you continued to question what I wrote based on your assumptions. I think respectful dialogue includes asking questions before drawing inaccurate conclusions.

    I have been working for equal rights for gays for over 3 decades, first as an out and proud gay man and then among the religious right.

    Anon, I really wish you well. I hope you believe my sincerity in saying that. I also wish you peace.

    I do and I hope you believe I also wish you peace. What is unfortunate about his whole issue is the political religious right and the ex-gay leadership do not speak for the majority of ex-gays, at least the ones I know. In spite of our differing stands on homosexuality we have a common goal, and that is equal respect, justice, and rights for all human beings.

40. Jim, you have confirmed that all you want to do is assume.

    I had to re-read that message several times before I figured out that you were really talking about me. Wow.

    I don’t think I purposely misrepresented or twisted anything you said. I read what you said, interpreted it in my tiny little brian and posted my reaction, right or wrong, as part of an ongoing discussion. this is how conversations take place, and if I do say so myself, I’m not half bad at it. If I got something wrong, I’m sorry, but civil conversations are for correction, proposing ideas, setting the bad one aside, giving more food for thought… all of these things.

    I read what I read in good faith, and reacted accordingly. I’m sorry that you don’t seem to be interested in conversations that don’t agree with you. I’m sorry to see you lash out in language that makes a lot of very broad and, in my view, unearned assumptions about me

    I think you mistake us (me, Timothy and Michael) for those who, when hearing a self-identified ex-gay say black, automatically jump to screaming white. This most certainly is not the case with me, nor is it with Michael or Timothy.

    This suggests two possibilities, 1) that I am not communicating myself very well (and I certainly concede that possibility) or that 2) you are not reading me correctly. (Do you recognize that possibility?)

    I fully support those who work to reduce misconceptions and fear on both sides. I don’t know of Dennis Jernigan, but I certainly have been very appreciative of Tony and Peggy Campolo’s work in this area. And I’m afraid you missed what I said earlier:

    You have my full support — and admiration — for the the path you have chosen.

    I am very sorry if my post appeared as an attack on your chosen path. I did not intend to make it so and I apologize for not making that plain earlier.

    I fully support the right of anyone to live in accordance with whatever path he or she chooses. This includes ex-gays. I only oppose the efforts of many in the ex-gay leadership who insist that their way is the only legitimate way to live, and who actively seek to limit my civil rights. That is the full limit of my efforts.

    If you could only hear the arguments I get into when I visit San Francisco, you’d know how wrong you have me. So yes, speaking of assumptions….

    I can see that it is time for me to withdraw from this conversation. It’s okay. These are sensitive subjects, obviously, and I think we all have some good things to chew on (or maybe stew? I dunno. I really don’t stew much, a quality that completely baffles my partner who is a consummate stewer).

    Anon, I really wish you well. I hope you believe my sincerity in saying that. I also wish you peace.

41. Michael wrote:

    Warren: I just re-read the original post, and I also take serious exception with your correspondent when he claims that “A hug from a true friend of the same sex is more powerful than those who are sexually active will ever understand.”

    I don’t know if he meant this to be offensive, but it is. It implies that those of us who are “sexually active” are shallow, dimwitted and sluttish and somehow incapable of understandiing true bonding and intimacy, What makes him think that we don’t value “hugs” from a “true friend”? Does he think we only have gay sex buddies, not real friends? Does he really think that we don’t know the power of a loving hug? If so, Isn’t that rather ignorant and/or arrogant on his part?

    Do sexually active people have strong emotionally intimate relationships with members of the same sex? Of course they do. This is especially true of men who share a fox hole. However, as I pointed out earlier gay theology has besmirched this type of relationship by claiming David and Jonathon were lovers. Gay theology has done the same thing with Ruth and Naomi.

    Now put that one sentence in the context of living a celibate life. Can you view a hug from a true friend exceeding the power of an orgasm? I really doubt it and based on my conversations with gays and straights who wonder why I have never married neither can they.

    Generally speaking American men have a problem with physical intimacy. Ah, there he goes again, he is implying that American men are “shallow, dimwitted and sluttish and somehow incapable of understanding true bonding and intimacy”. However, the American media and comics had a field day when President Bush walked hand-in-hand with Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah and planted kisses on Chirac and Lieberman. Paul wrote “Greet one another with a holy kiss.” Gay men understand that a kiss is not always an upper persuasion for a lower invasion, however when was the last time you saw a straight American man kiss another straight man in church, let alone in public without getting weird looks and/or sarcastic comments?

42. Micheal,

    I am sorry for being “touchy”, but I have heard so many judgements toward those of us who struggle with same-sex attraction but who wish to live by the Christian values against the values that we have learned from when we were children. There was a time I thought my Christian values must be wrong because so many people seemed to be standing against what I felt was true in my heart. Now I see that so much of that is anger.

    I am not nearly as touchy as I was when I allowed myself to be controlled by my same-sex attraction. I now see this attraction for what it really is. I am drawn into friendship with men and allow them to help me understand my masculinity. I am a sensitive man and for years I used addictive sexual behaviour to try to cover this sensitivity up. It was the way I coped with life stresses. Now that I no longer use this as a way to run from my problems I must face life on lifes terms and you know what, it is not so bad. My depression of many years has gone, my love for my family and neighbor has increased and my love for myself is much improved. Is this because I choose to accept that I was “gay” and there is nothing that can be done to change that. No. It is because I learned to accept that my sexuality is a small part of who I am and for years that was distorted because of what I was looking at and hoping for.

    Now I realize that I have something very special in my wife and children. I love my wife (our relationship is not sexless) and I try to be there for my children. When others who have choosen a different path want to convince me that I am probably not as happy as they are I do get abit touchy. I may not be but that is not for them to judge.

    Michael. I do get emotional when I am told this kind of thing, because I have heard of many marriages breaking up lately because one of the partners has come out and feels they can no longer be happy. In some cases that may be true, but I suspect that for many they just do not know where to turn anymore because of all of the pro-gay propaganda that has been put forward in the movies and on TV.

    I just want to say that I do not support same-sex marriage. I believe that for some the feelings may be to strong for them to even consider the opposite sex, but this does not mean we should reconstruct the family for their sake. Why should I tolerate “gay pride parades” on my street. To me it is like second hand smoke. It is an attempt to convince others that this is the way you need to live your life if you want happiness. I got news for you I don’t think everyone is buying it and I think it is pushing many on the Christian right even further away. The polarizing of our society will only stop when both sides show some attempt at trying to understand the other.

    I have appreciated your openness with me. I keep telling myself that I need to stay off of this Blog because it sometimes gets me too worked up, but I really do admire Warren for his wisdom for opening up these kinds of discussions. As long as there are two polarizing sides to this issue I must try to stay as closely to the center as I can. Whether you believe it or not that is where I find my greatest happiness. I do not have to become a far right Christian or an in your face “gay activist”, I just have to learn to be content and happy with where I am at for today.

43. Anon: PLEASE stay with your kids and remain celibate. I think this is better for THEM. I wish I had stayed with daughter (for her sake) and I wish I would have waited until she was an adult before I became sexually active with ANYONE. I wish that my wife and I could have worked out a sexless marriage for my daughter’s sake — for ALL of us. But I could not. I was young, in love and I made a BIG mistake.

    But my love (not lust) for Gary was too strong. With HIM, I could love totally — body, mind, emotion and spirit. Try as I might, I could not give this to my wife.

    You said: “I was actually referring to how it makes me feel when you try to paint me as unhappy and some right winged Christian who has a closed mind on this issue.” Anon, I do not KNOW you and have not (would not) try to “paint you as unhappy”. In fact, I pray that you ARE. Nothing pleases me most than to have the conviction that people are HAPPY — living peaceably with their neighbors and living in accordane with their beliefs.

    You are “sure” that I am “sure” what kind of person you are. The opposite is true. I have NO preconceptions about the person you are. You sound like a loving, sincere Christian man. Try not to be so touchy, OK? I will try to be the same.

44. Wow, this has generated quite a discussion. I am glad for that and for the fact that for the most part it has been civil. There is much we can learn from each other I believe if we approach this discussion to learn about other ways of construing the issues involved.

    It seems clear to me that people on both sides have been maligned to the point where it is hard to hear other views without reacting in a defensive manner. None of us know the others well or can via a very brief presentation of our lives. I hope we can continue to listen and ask more questions than make assumptions.

    I am very blessed that you all have chosen to drop by and comment in this forum. I also appreciate the ex-gay watch blog as well providing discussion on the sexual identity and values focused models. I do not find many places where this kind of respectful discussion takes place – although this one is active enough that I doubt I would have time for many more if there were 🙂

45. Micheal,

    I thank you for your openness and honesty. I agree I do not know you or much of your story, but I have felt for some time that you do not have much respect for folks whose story leads them to stay in their marriage and find happiness by getting to the route of why they may have thought themselves to be gay. I do not mean to say that you should live any other life other than the one that you find makes you happy, but I will not listen to those of you who cannot accept that there are others out there who do not value the idea that they are “gay” and there is nothing they can do to change that. The science is finally getting to a point where we are seeing there are many reasons why people may have these attractions and as such there are many different ways that people may wish to deal with this. For myself, a married man with wonderful children, I do not wish to throw that away to go live a lifestyle that may or may not bring me happiness. I have worked very hard to understand why I might have these feelings. What I have come to understand is that these feelings are very much a part of who I am and that I can be a very good person without acting out on these feelings. Once I was truly honest with myself and others in my life I was able to move on in my life and grow up. Now I have meaningful friendships with both men and women and I very much disagree with those on this blog that want to try to convince others that I should not feel that way. If you are happy that is great. All I am asking is that you try to show that you can be happy for me and my family. I will try to support anyone who finds themselves attracted to others of the same-sex, but for those who do not want to self-identify as “gay” or “homosexual” I will not encourage them to just accept it because it is just not true. I will not encourage any young person to embrace the “gay ideology” because it is just someone else way of looking at their world, but I will encourage them to discover for themselves who they are in light of all the evidence before them.

    As for the comment you made about living in the little box….”It is insulting for you to say that I “live in a little box”. I was actually referring to how it makes me feel when you try to paint me as unhappy and some right winged Christian who has a closed mind on this issue. That is extremely insulting. I am a strong believer in the healing power of Christ and I have a Science degree. I do not find any conflict with what I am finding to be true in either of these areas and infact the more I open my mind the less conflict I am finding between these two philosophies.

    I am sure you have your own ideas about the kind of person I really am, but because you have not met me and because you do not seem to truly want to know how I reached the conclusions I have reached I suspect you will not really ever get to know me. And that may be find. I think it is sad though.

46. “Instead of attacking marriage I would ask you to actively support this for anyone who makes this choice in freedom.”

    I COMPLETELY agree with this, especially the part that calls for “active support for ANYONE who makes this choice in freedom.” My current partner (Richard) and I would love to get married. Are we ANYONE?

    In spite of what you may think, I am NOT attacking marriage. On the contrary, I think it needs some serious help. Nearly 2/3 of the STRAIGHT marriafes here in SoCal end in divorce. People all too often marry people they don’t love, for the wrong reasons and to have kids they don’t really want. It’s a national tragedy.

    In my past thirty years as a Marriage and Family Therapist, I have been trying very hard to help marriages and families survive. It’s hard work, but there are blessings. My daughter is getting married in two months and I am looking forward to having grandkids. Far from “attacking marriage, I love good, loving marriages and happy families. What makes you think I (or any other gay person) would want to “attack” or “destroy” marriages or families? We all CAME from famlies, for crying out loud! I view this warped perception that “gays are attacking marriage” as a sort of paranoid delusion.

47. Instead of attacking marriage I would ask you to actively support this for anyone who makes this choice in freedom.

    Just out of curiosity, do you actively support marriage for anyone who wishes to marry their same-sex partner?

48. What about the polictical agenda of the pro-gays who cannot accept that someone could be happy not living their live in a way that they find disordered by natural standards.

    It doesn’t exist – that’s what about it.

    No gay person or gay organization is trying to stop you from living however you like. In fact, most gay groups would campaign for your right to live the life of your choosing.

    Should we not remove the rhetoric that is being used to force this so called pride on the rest of us.

    No one is forcing pride or anything else on you.

    But I do find it amusing that you use “the rest of us” as though a tiny number of pro-gay activists were forcing some much-hated pride on a vast population of ex-gays.

    And don’t try to tell me there is no gay community or gay lobby because that would be just more rhetoric.

    There is a collective community of gay people but it consists of a vast variety of folks. And there are lobby groups that attempt to support equality in legislation and oppose efforts to exclude gay people from equal access.

49. Warren: I just re-read the original post, and I also take serious exception with your correspondent when he claims that “A hug from a true friend of the same sex is more powerful than those who are sexually active will ever understand.”

    I don’t know if he meant this to be offensive, but it is. It implies that those of us who are “sexually active” are shallow, dimwitted and sluttish and somehow incapable of understandiing true bonding and intimacy, What makes him think that we don’t value “hugs” from a “true friend”? Does he think we only have gay sex buddies, not real friends? Does he really think that we don’t know the power of a loving hug? If so, Isn’t that rather ignorant and/or arrogant on his part?

    (By the way, would he consider twice a week for ten minutes with one committed partner to be “sexually active”? Or is he using “sexually active” to mean “sexually compulsive and carelessly promiscuous”?) I experienced DEEP intimacy with my lover Gary as he lay dying of AIDS. We had no sex at all those last two years but were just as “intimate” as we had been when we “sexually active” with each other. Our most inimate experience was holding his hand as he died. We always were intimate and never stopped being intimate. Sex was part of it, one way we expressed it, but was not the basis of it.

    Just because HE didn’t experience real intimacy in his gay relationships, doesn’t mean the rest of us are thick mentally or emtionally stunted. Maybe his homosexual experiences were strictly physical and selfish. Maybe his guilt prevented him from experiencing same sex romantic, sexual and spritual intimacy. I don’t know. But, it sort of reminds me of Schoenewolf’s comments last year that only people who agreed with him were intelligent and that the rest of us were Marxist “busibodies” who were incapable of abstract reasoning.

50. I see another contributor to this discussion has chosen the name “Anon”. This is my first post since post #7072.

    Jim, you have confirmed that all you want to do is assume. I accepted my orientation in 1961 in a rural area where I thought I was the only person dealing with those feelings. I did not meet another gay man until a couple of years later and did not become sexually active until I was discovered gay bars after relocating to a major city in 1966. In those days the only place gays could openly congregate were the bars or cruising areas and as much as you seem to want to deny the real world the main purpose of bars and cruising areas at that time was to “trick out”. Gays and straights were caught up in the sexual revolution that defined the 60’s and 70’s.

    I fully understand your goals since I was actively involved with my local chapter of the Gay Liberation Front until GLF effectively folded in the early 70‘s. I also helped found a Metropolitan Community Church in the Mid West and after moving to the Gulf Coast worked with another local UFMCC congregation. If you know anything about the factions (the radical Students for a Democratic Society) within the GLF you should understand why so many ever straights have assumed that gay political activism is dangerous to traditional American culture. “Free love”, “make love not war”, Woodstock, and Viet Nam all contributed to a major shift in attitudes concerning sexual relationships as did daytime soap operas. It was during this time in our country’s history when the vernacular use of ‘love’ became equated with sex and to deny this is to ignore reality. “Lets make love” does not equate to “lets form a non sexual emotionally intimate relationship“.

    What is the “gay agenda”? Equal rights and the right to live your lives free of prejudice and discrimination, however Woodstock, Stonewall, the SDS, Anita Bryant, AIDS, scantily dressed gay men dry humping on lavish gay pride floats, and the misrepresentation of Michael Swift’s “Gay Manifesto” by the radical religious right polarized the nation. The medias reporting on gay men who opposed the closing of gay bathhouses in the early 80’s contributed to the average American viewing homosexuals as sex crazed degenerates. Most Americans who had never met a gay man assumed that those men chanting “we have a right to our sex” represented all gay men (the gay community).

    Michael, “what is the ‘gay community‘”? Why don’t you tell us since this phrase is used in gay publications as are the phrases “gay activists” and “gay lobby“. Like you I wonder what is meant by “gay lifestyle”.

    What polarizes gays and ex-gays? Those like Jim, Timothy, and Michael who project what they want to project on what ex-gays write. On the other side there are Stephen Bennett, Michael Johnson, and the other minions of the political religious right, who misrepresent the vast majority of ex-gays who are marginalized by both groups. Both groups also ignore Dennis Jernigan who has been instrumental in changing the attitudes of more homophobes toward the gay community in churches across America than Jim, Timothy, and Michael are willing to admit. There was a time when The Advocate and other gay publications understood and editorialized that ex-gays are your best ally in promoting social and political change in America. When did this change? When ex-gays started getting media attention and the political religious right hand picked their ex-gay mouthpieces to promote their bigoted and prejudicial spin on “Sodomites”.

    Jim, no matter what I write or say your personal agenda is foremost in your mind and you will try to spin what I write so you can try to deny the cultural and social changes that have occurred over the last 50 years. Well, be my guest, I will continue my grass roots campaign to counter the radical religious right. I will continue to promote acceptance for the “gay community” while you stew in your self-pity and denigrate ex-gays who want the same rights you do; the right to live our lives free of prejudice, discrimination, and hate filled self-serving rhetoric that only widens the gap between mutual understanding and respect.

    And Warren, it is my hope and prayer that due to your efforts those dealing unwanted SSA will be able to find the help they want without having some counselor inject his personal opinions and experiences into the mix.

51. Oops! That should have been “I just don’t WANT people who disagree with my choices to take away hard-won legal protections or to deny me equal rights under the law.” Sorry for the typo.

    And thanks, Timothy! I will try taking that gay elevator to the main floor that opens out into the gay lobby where the gay activists live the gay lifestyle. Do I need to bring anything? A gay covered casserole, perhaps?

52. Anon: You obviously don’t know me at all — or have ANY idea of where I have come from. I have NEVER “painted a picture that a person cannot be happy” making choices that differ from mine. I am sure that there are MANY such people. I have met a lot of them.

    Dr. Throckmorton knows me pretty well and can tell you that what I am saying is true. He also knows that I COMPLETELY respect a person’s right to make their own choices as well as their right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness — as long as they don’t “force” their values on me and try to strip me of my rights as a citizen.

    I have also never tried to “forced” my “pride” on anyone. I would not know how to do that even IF I wanted to. I am not “proud” of being gay. (I am just not willing to be ashamed of it.) Sexual orientation is nothing to be “proud” of, per se. It just IS. I am proud of my accomplishments. I am proud of my daughter. I am proud of the person I have become. I am proud to be a born-again Christian. I am proud to be an American. I can’t force this “pride” on someone. They have to find it for themselves.

    In fact, as a victim of an anti-gay hate crime that nearly killed me and took the life of my best friend, I am strongly AGAINST “forcing” my will on any other person. I am a pacifist, a conscientious objector and I strongly believe in “live and let iive.” I am non-violent. I believe in the Golden Rule. And, I am not a member of any “gay community” — I have a small group of gay friends, but most of the people I hang out with aren’t gay. I am not a member of any “gay lobby” either. The only thing I am a member of is my church and my choir.

    I am CERTAIN that there are many people who are happy making choices that differ from my own, and I respect their right to live in accordance with their values. I just don’t people who disagree with my choices to take away hard-won legal protections or to deny me equal rights under the law.

    By the way, you have no idea HOW I live. It is insulting for you to say that I “live in a little box” — implying that to be gay is to be limited or close-minded. At this point, YOU seem to be the one with the box.

53. Michael,

    Then don’t try to put those of use who have choosen not to live as you do into your little box by painting a picture that you cannot be happy unless you live as an openly gay person.

54. Anon said: “Should we not remove the rhetoric that is being used to force this so called pride on the rest of us?”

    What? Rhetoric can’t “force” pride (“so-called” or otherwise) on anyone. My being proud doesn’t mean that YOU have to be. I really don’t give a rat’s behind how you feel about gays — unless you use those feelings to deny me life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness.

    And I beg to differ, but there is no “gay community” anymore than there is a “straight community” or a “male community”. Gay people are as varied as straight people. Gay people, like straights, have a variety of political opinions and lifestyles. You can’t put us neatly into some little box so that you will feel more comfortable coexisting with us.

55. NICKC

    I had not read the end of your post so I just want to add that I am happy to see that you support Barry. I would also ask you to offer the same support to anyone who chooses to follow that path if they are willing to do the work that is necessary to make their marriage work. Otherwise we will just see more broken families. Instead of attacking marriage I would ask you to actively support this for anyone who makes this choice in freedom.

56. NickC

    Perhaps the reason it became more difficult for you to avoid the homosexual feeliings was that it has become increasingly acceptable in our culture in the west to accept gayness rather than support families who try very hard to work out their difficulties and struggles. Being gay these days is the easier way than working things out within a natural marriage. I do believe that their is much to be gained by working through struggles instead of standing against those that want to try to make things work.

    I do not no why it has now become unacceptable to support someones personal desire to maintain their family and help them find happiness instead of constantly telling them it cannot be done. I guess for me the best that I can do is ignore what I am hearing from those of you who have chosen not to work out these issues for yourself.

57. Timothy,

    What about the polictical agenda of the pro-gays who cannot accept that someone could be happy not living their live in a way that they find disordered by natural standards. Should we not remove the rhetoric that is being used to force this so called pride on the rest of us. And don’t try to tell me there is no gay community or gay lobby because that would be just more rhetoric.

58. Why do gay folks get so exercised about ex-gay folks, and vice versa?

    On the gay side, the obvious reason is that the religious right is engaged in a fierce attack on our right to live by our own moral choice, form families and relationships, and be protected from harrassment and discrimination. Barry may not personally agree with those attacks. The sad fact is, however, that most of the organized ex-gay groups are very much involved in the political battles. And they will eagerly use Barry’s example to “prove” that homosexuals can get married to women and be happy if they’ll just try.

    So I don’t have any hard feelings at all toward Barry for his decisions, but I think he needs to be realistic about how ex-gays get used against gays.

    Beyond that, I admit that it is also difficult for those of us who’ve dealt with these issues for many years to avoid skepticism about any ex-gay success story. I don’t doubt for one minute that Barry is genuinely happy in his marriage of 13 years. I was married 26 years, and was extremely happy in my marriage and family for most of that time. Especially in the first 15 years or so, when our children were small and family life was all-engrossing, I enjoyed my married life so much that it was easy to set aside my homosexual feelings. But for many reasons, as the years went by, it became more and more difficult for me to live in denial of my deepest feelings and identity. That led to the very painful end of my marriage.

    So naturally, when Barry talks about how happy he is at this point in his marriage, I tend to think: Well I was happy at that point too! And I want to warn other people, who might be tempted by his account to jump into marriage despite a strong homosexual orientation, that they could end up with a very unhappy situation in the long term.

    I sincerely hope for Barry and his wife that their happiness lasts another 13 years, and another 26 and more beyond that–truly until death do them part. But I hope he will understand why I might still urge other gay people not to follow his example.

59. “political agenda of the ex-gay leadership it should have said

60. Barry,

    Thanks for your comments. I’m glad that you have found a life that brings you happiness.

    You make some good points and I hope that efforts are beginning that may eventually lead to the place where a peace (however fragile) can be reached.

    Unfortunately there is one thing standing in the way – the political agenda of the ex-gay. I think that if anti-gay leaders did not use ex-gay testimonies as a tool in their arsenal against civil equality then gay people wouldn’t care at all what ex-gay people did.

    But for as long as Alan Chambers is going to testify to legislators or others to get laws passed denying gay people equal access to civil institutions then I, for one, will be standing there to point out his evil ways.

61. Barry asked: “Why do gay folks get so exercised about ex-gay folks, and vice versa? …..I think in some cases it may boil down to gay people being hated and discriminated against their entire lives.”

    Bingo Barry. And often this hatred and discrimination has come most strongly from the very folks who claimed to be Christian. Sadly, I have found that “non-religious” folks often find it easier to “live and let live”.

    We get weary of people telling us that we are sick, sinful or disordered, that we “chose” to have these feelings and that we are destined to burn for eternity if we don’t “change”. We get irritated by the “overpromises” and (at times) downright dishonesty of those who claim to be able to change gays into straights. We get worked up when we are told that only “they” are “real Christians”.

    We become defensive when we are told that if we were good, moral people we would want to be straight — and that if we didn’t become straight it was because we didn’t have “enough faith”.

    We also tend to get touchy because folks on the “ex-gay” side are all too frequently the very ones who are trying to strip us of the legal, social and occupational protections we have fought so hard and suffered so much to achieve.

    Regarding the “vice versa”, I can understand that “ex-gays” would get upset at gays who attack their choices and relgious beliefs. I can fully understand that. But, as for why “ex-gays” would “get exercized” by those who simply come to accept and value their homosexuality, I don’t have a clue.

62. Anon,

    Sadly, your response confirmed my suppositions. It seems to me that your story tells of someone who surrounded themself with people who were desperate and unhappy and as a consequence sees all gay people as being the same.

    You don’t acknowledge non-sexual friendships. You don’t see that activism for gay equality currently has almost no sexual component but instead is focused entirely on housing, jobs, insurance, access to civil institutions, etc. You imagine all sorts of things that the gay lobby thinks about you. Even something as simple as a friendly hug seems to you to be outside the experience of gay people.

    Clearly you are unable to be happy while living in accordance with a same-sex orientation. So I think you are one of those people who perhaps are best living as you do, either in celibacy or in pursuing heterosexuality. I wish you well.

    I do hope that at some point your derision of the person you fear you could be can be lessened and that you will be able to step beyond the stereotypes that protect you and reinforce your choice. I hope that some day you can like yourself and your decisions without having to hate and villianize others who did not seek your path.

    In the meanwhile, God bless you and keep you.

63. Michael,

    Just take the gay elevator to the main floor and it opens out into the gay lobby. That’s where the gay activists live the gay lifestyle.

64. AMEN!

65. Hello, I have read with interest the posts about the various journeys described. For the record, I also struggled with homosexual attractions and behaviors for many years, sought to find help which included counseling, and in the end after finding some personal answers chose to be married. I have been married for 13 years and I could not be happier. The homosexual attractions have not completely gone, but I do find that, for me, sexual attractions can change very gradually over a very long period; and that, as has been eloquently stated, God’s grace is sufficient for me. I am able to live in a way that is consistent with my understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    As for the posts, can we just say that a hug can be a hug and leave it at that? I find the constant fighting…then apologizing…then explaining “that’s not what I really meant” between the gay and so-called ex-gay communities to be agonizing. I realize this will be followed by long treatises from each of the previous posters explaining that they were not attacking, but just explaining their positions.

    Why do gay folks get so exercised about ex-gay folks, and vice versa? I don’t claim to have all the answers and I think anyone would be a fool to make such a claim, but I think in some cases it may boil down to gay people being hated and discriminated against their entire lives. When they see views that disagree with theirs and seem to question decisions they have made–even if those views are coming from former cohorts, they take great offense.

    A good example of this is the movement within the mental health professions to make so-called reparative therapy (a silly term) unethical. This movement is propogated by a very strong gay representation within the mental health world. They single such therapy out because it is not universally successful. Problem–no form of therapy is universally successful. Bottom line, apparently the thought of therapy to change or mitigate homosexual orientation is so offensive to some, they would like it to be outlawed. I find this sad since that form of therapy was quite helpful to me.

    Similarly, when so-called ex-gay (I’m not a big fan of labels) people encounter others saying they are just fooling themselves or denying who they really are, they also take offense.

    What would it be like if we all just said that the choice is our own? We may not choose our feelings, but we choose how we respond to them. And in the end, I am not the judge of anyone else nor, as strange as it sounds, are we the final judges of ourselves (though we may choose to judge ourselves quite regularly). The final judgement is left to God. He is the final arbiter. He can help us understand if we have made good choices. Hopefully, we make a connection with him and have those conversations frequently.

    Just give peace a chance.

    Name respectfully withheld by request

66. Also Jim, I can respect and empathize with your personal journey without interpreting what you write based on false assumptions. We can agree to disagree on many issues and still treat each other with dignity and respect. Unlike the political religious right I do not expect or demand that you agree with or live by my theology.

67. Okay, some who espouse gay theology has decided that the relationship between David and Jonathan was sexual not emotional. Why? Because David’s love for Jonathan exceeded his love for women. Love = sex. “Love your neighbor as yourself” is used by many gay Christians to justify same sex sexual activity since love = sex. Some gay Christians appeal to James’ “royal law” equating love with sex. This Jim is reality, not my projecting my bias on the whole world.

    My theological position means I am part of the religious right, however I do not support the political agenda of the political religious right. On a theological level I oppose gay unions, on a political level I do not oppose gay unions. On a theological level I view family as defined in the Bible, on a political level I view family differently. I know same sex couples with well adjusted children who are raising those children in a loving and compassionate environment who will become productive citizens who mirror the values they have been taught. In past conversations with those who self identify as gay activists I have been asked if I am no longer gay then why have I not married, I get the same question from evangelical Christians. My response to Timothy in no way denies that straight men objectify women or that there are not programs for men to change their attitudes. You brought up the objectification of women in advertising, TV, and etc. Gay publications and TV do the same with men and women.

    With all due respect you have decided you know who I am and what I stand for and have attacked what you think I represent thereby setting up a straw man.

    You resent what you think I implied and I resent being lumped together with Falwell, Robinson, et al. The political religious right touts Biblical standards and conveniently ignores 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 and Matthew 19 to name just a few Biblical standards that do not fit their denominational positions or political agenda.

    Warren understood the purpose of my email, however I fear Timothy, CK, and you have set up straw men to attack because you took what I wrote as a personal attack aimed at the gay community, something I have never done and will never do.

68. Would someone please explain what they mean by “the gay community”, “the gay lobby”, “the gay activists”, and “the gay lifestyle”? I have been gay for over 50 years and, in spite of years of searching, I still haven’t found them.

69. You say that society has equated love with sex. I say that is the strawman. (No, it is not an individual’s personal position, but a strawman doen’t necessarily have to be) I do not believe that society has equated love with sex. The rhetoric I see on both the left and right says the opposite. Certainly many individuals let their emotions get in the way and make that mistake in their hearts.

    Yet people hug asexually all the time and think nothing of it, and people, gay and straight, “have fun” or “fool around” without mistaking it for love all the time. And yes, many people fall in love while remaining chaste until marriage or at least until they feel their relationship has moved to an appropriate level. They are all society too.

    And the idea that many men are prone to objectifying others is nothing new, and that phenomenon is certainly not limited to gay men. The Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders, the covers of any hot-rod magazine, power tool calendars, beer commercials, Hooters, Miss America, Girls Gone Wild, dancers in this Sunday’s Super Bowl halftime show… The list goes on.

    The fact that there are groups dedicated to teaching gay men to not objectify another men is not necessarily indicative of a problem that is emblematic of the “gay community”. I would ask why there aren’t similar groups for straight men. (The answer, of course, is that there are.)

    You offer another strawman argument in saying that emotional intimacy “seems to be totally ignored by the gay lobby”. But what do you think the marriage debate is all about? If you think it is about nothing but “benefits” then I think you haven’t been listening very closely to the very personal stories of those who are so dedicated to the fight for marriage equality. Also there are those who, in the blossoming of their emotional intimacy, build on their abundance of love and share it in the act of building a family together and raising children.

    You added a fresh strawman in your response to me whey you say, “gays (including activists) see marriage as proof of “change” I know of no gay man or woman, activist or not, who accept marriage as proof if “change”. We all know of too many closeted heterosexually married men and women to accept the existence of such a marriage as proof. I do know of a few ex-gay activists who offer their marriages as proof of change, but most caution very strongly against it.

    But on a more personal and far more important note – – – –

    As it happens, I have walked many miles in similar moccasins, as I too have walked a life of celibacy for the first twenty years of my adult life. Unlike you, I did not walk that path as someone who was previously homosexually active, so no doubt there are shades of differences in our experiences.

    But I know that many people find celibacy strange and react oddly to it. They most certainly don’t understand how anyone could make such a decision. I have no doubt you have found the same to be true. I am sorry that I did not share that in order to try to make it more clear. You have my full support — and admiration — for the the path you have chosen.

    I am very sorry if my post appeared as an attack on your chosen path. I did not intend to make it so and I apologize for not making that plain earlier.

    However, I can also say, based on my own experience in those moccasins, that my decision then, and my different decision now, did not and does not need to be explained to anyone. Most certainly not by comparing it to all of the horrible things that people on both sides do and ascribing those actions to everyone or even most people of that category.

    While the decision you make is difficult and hard to explain, I fear that you do a disservice to many on both sides. Yes, the difficulties you experience are very real. I know that very well. There will always be those on both sides who won’t understand.

    But still, contrasting one’s decisions against negative alternatives rather than supporting one’s decisions solely according to its own positive attributes seems, to me at least, a touch defensive. It is certainly defensive whenever I catch myself going down that path. I am sorry if I was projecting too much when it “appeared” you were doing the same.

    But when you say, “A hug from a true friend of the same sex is more powerful than those who are sexually active will ever understand,” I believe there is quite a bit of projecting going on there. As one who is “sexually active” as it were, I resented it.

70. CK – I agree. Both experiences should be reported and accepted as is but neither should be presumed to be The Way.

    Given the rhetoric on both sides about what the other side is like, I can understand defensiveness.

    Part of what makes our model suspect by both extremes is that we do not look for data to substantiate an ideological or theoretical position.

71. Jim, a straw man is a logical fallacy where person B distorts person A’s position and then attacks the distorted position. I have not attacked a position I have shared my experiences.

    I know of no gay man who would define his orientation so narrowly. Maybe the circles I run in are too narrow, but I realy doubt it.

    Your circles are to narrow. As I shared in my prior post there are gay groups designed to help gay men redefine their orientation so they do not objectify all men. Personally, I was pleased to hear this since I have gay friends and acquaintances from San Francisco to St. Louis and from Chicago to the Gulf Coast who do define their sexuality by what they do not who they are.

    Now, as to your “double take”; I can’t tell you the number of times ever straight men who hug each other at church who have taken two steps back when they discovered they were standing next to an ex-gay man. They seem to think that being gay or ex-gay is a communicable virus that needs to be avoided. Your posts reminded of this Native American adage:

    Don’t judge a man until you have walked a mile in his moccasins.

    As to be “defensive” concerning living a celibate life; when gays (including activists) see marriage as proof of “change” and those in the institutional church take the same position, explaining why I chose celibacy over marriage is not being defensive. I am willing to bet that you view anti-gay rhetoric as hubris based on false and inaccurate stereotypes. I am also willing to bet you do not like being judged based on “appearances” that do not fit the way you live your life. However, you have no hesitation in questioning my motives based on your “appearances” that exist in your mind, not my reality.

72. Timothy, I wrote the email Warren posted and you represent the “gay lobby” that understands gay men can and do have emotional non-sexual relationships and then accuse ex-gays who express emotional intimacy with hugs as being “closeted” and in denial of their true orientation. Now, you personally may not have this opinion, however in the last 20+ years my experience has shown that gay activists (gay lobby) have used such incidents as proof of the ex-gay “lie”.

    “I am no longer obsessed by the desire to be with another man” = I am no longer in search of a same sex life partner. I have many gay friends who are “obsessed” with finding that one special man to spend the rest of their life with and the older they get the more obsessed they become.

    “His objectification and his inability to have non-sexual friendships are not the natural consequenses of a same-sex orientation.”

    You seem to want to ignore the fact that some gay activists concentrate on the sexual aspects of their lives. I am sure you are aware of regional gay groups whose main purpose is to educate gay men on how to relate to men on a non-sexual level. The very existence of such programs demonstrates that there are enough gay men who “objectify” men and are so “obsessed” with sex they need to be taught healthy ways to interact and relate with men

    “But it only exacerbates the situation and feeds into stereotypes and the false claims of anti-gay activists for him to project his own inabilities onto “the gay lobby”.

    With all due respect Timothy, when barely clothed gay men parade with signs that read “Celebrate Sodomy” and spam Christian message boards and the inboxes of Christians with gay porn they exacerbate the situation and feed the stereotypes you lament. Anti-gay activists are going to believe what they want to believe, just as you will believe what you want to believe about what I wrote, which was meant to encourage those who struggle with SSA not “feed stereotypes”. And speaking of stereotypes, you need to accept as fact that not all ex-gays fit the stereotypes promoted by the “gay lobby”.

    All of my friendships over the last couple of decades have been non-sexual and I do not and have not “objectified” those friendships since to do so is counter productive and contrary to my goal.

73. A further thought….

    I understand that choosing to live a celibate life is not a choice that is easily explained to others. Perhaps that’s the defensiveness. He says that unlike Jim, he did not seek professional help, and maybe he really does not need it. But I certainly hope he seeks out whatever help, advise, or counselling that can put him more at ease with his decision, rather than having to contrast it with those of a strawman.

74. I had to do a double-take on the same line that got Timothy’s goat as well:

    Emotional intimacy as an aim is underrated by the institutional church and seems to be totally ignored by the gay lobby. A hug from a true friend of the same sex is more powerful than those who are sexually active will ever understand.

    That strikes me as being utterly absurd, as it appears (and I don’t know the man, so I’m only judging in appearances) to be rather full of hubris as well. Only a celibate man can understand the power of a hug from a true friend? What’s that all about?

    If, as you suggest, he is speaking of those who view sexual orientation as being solely about sexual behavior, than I’m not entirely sure how “fully accepting” he was of his gay orientation for those twenty some years.

    I know of no gay man who would define his orientation so narrowly. Maybe the circles I run in are too narrow, but I realy doubt it.

    This strikes me more as someone who is working very hard to justify his current life choices by erecting strawman arguments and false characterizations of those who don’t live by the same choices he made. It seem to me that he may have simply traded one obsession for another.

75. I don’t mean to be disrespectful of the original correspondent here. His life story travels the opposite arc from mine: I renounced an openly homosexual life at age 20 due to a religious conversion, spent the next 30 years living as a heterosexual (married, children, etc) in accordance with my religious values, and then came out again 5 years ago and have found great happiness in embracing my homosexual identity. But I am not surprised or disturbed that someone else may have found peace through different decisions than mine.

    That being said, I do have to comment on how much he sounds like a few of my friends in their 50s and 60s who say that they are just as happy without sex. The difference is that these are openly gay men who still fully embrace their gay identity. They still enjoy going out to socialize in gay bars, care about gay causes, have primarily gay friends, and even date other men. But in some cases they just don’t have that strong a sex drive, and in others, they have never been successful at establishing relationships that were both emotionally and physically intimate. One way or another, at this point they prefer not to deal with sex at all.

    An example: I ran into my good friend John last Friday, at happy hour in our favorite gay bar. John’s about 60, retired, and was just back from a long vacation in another city. While there, he’d dated a new guy he really likes: they have a lot of interests in common, enjoy hanging out, he finds the guy attractive, etc. But they never had sex–even though the other guy expressed interest–and John isn’t interested in taking the relationship in that direction. His words: “At this point in my life, I need friends more than sex.”

    Sounds a lot like our correspondent, doesn’t it? And it makes me wonder: if he were 25 rather than 63, would he find as much peace in staying celibate?

    Even more to the point: is it possible that his decision to embrace celibacy is rooted as much in difficulties with intimacy, self-image, and fear of rejection as in divine grace? Certainly, I can see those factors at work in my friend John, who follows his remark about needing “friends more than sex” with the observation that “I always screw it up once we have sex.” At a certain point, especially as those hormones settle down a little with age, does it becomes easier to say “I’m happier without sex” than to pursue the risks and pains of finding a fully intimate sexual relationship?

76. Timothy – I am not sure what the anon contributor meant by the “gay lobby” either but I didn’t want to tamper with his note due to the other aspects of it.

    Just for the record he may be referring to those men and women who view sexual orientation as being solely about sexual behavior. However, as I have stated numerous times, I do not believe that to be true of all gays or straights.

77. I would like to be supportive of your anonymous contributor but there are just so many starkly bizarre statements.

    Emotional intimacy as an aim is underrated by the institutional church and seems to be totally ignored by the gay lobby. A hug from a true friend of the same sex is more powerful than those who are sexually active will ever understand.

    Huh? Emotional intimacy is ignored by “the gay lobby”? What on earth does that mean? And does this guy honestly believe that gay people never get a hug from a true friend of the same sex?

    I am no longer obsessed by the desire to be with another man.

    Perhaps the fact that he perceived his orientation as an obsession to be with another man may well explain why he felt in necessary to seek an ex-gay existence. It seems that your contributor had conflated any relationship whatsoever with another man into his sex drive. He wasn’t able to have a non-sexual hug. He was obsessed with sex.

    While I think he should have sought therapy for these issues years before, perhaps the ex-gay direction is the only way he could break that objectifying view of other men. Perhaps if he continued to “fully accept his gay orientation” he would not have been able to break free from his unhealthy perspectives.

    But let’s be clear.

    His objectification and his inability to have non-sexual friendships are not the natural consequenses of a same-sex orientation. The overwhelming majority of gay men that I’ve met have very deep and abiding non-sexual friendships with other men – usually both gay and straight – and know the value of a hug or of someone holding them out of compassion and love when they’ve had a bad day.

    I appreciate that he has found a happier place which allows some allignment of his faith and his self perception. But it only exacerbates the situation and feeds into stereotypes and the false claims of anti-gay activists for him to project his own inabilities onto “the gay lobby”.

78. This guy in your post came to similiar strategies that I found before I ever heard public discussion on homosexuality or knew about ex-gay ministries. I focused on the fact that my feelings were not to be denied but that I was only morally responsible for whether or not I acted on them. This didn’t help the inner struggle with same sex attraction but did give me a more important thing, peace with God. I believe the struggle on a spiritual level is between whether or not to keep trusting God and seeking Him first, no matter how long it takes Him to bless those aching parts of your soul (add those other things to your life such as intimate relationships). Eventually I found I didn’t have the same struggle, but it was on His time plan, not mine.

79. No, thank you, my friend.

80. Warren,

    This is a really gratifying response to what you have written. Once again, I see the rewards of transparency. Thanks for writing an excellent article, it’s worth the cost of being exposed, even if only a little.

    In His Love,

    Jim

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