Writing in defense of unnamed NARTH leaders, Julie Hamilton recently said on the NARTH (National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality) website:
NARTH will continue its mission as a scientific organization despite the propaganda, and the research will continue to speak for itself.
However, then just across the page, one encounters a ”NARTH Research Report” titled, Health Risks: Fisting and other Homosexual Practices. NARTH authors Michelle Cretella and Philip Sutton suggest that gay advocacy group GLSEN is currently teaching high school kids that fisting is safe practice. However, the authors fail to say that the incidents provoking their article happened 9 and 10 years ago. The NARTH article begins by framing the concern over those incidents as being in “recent weeks” but the incidents are old news. I am no fan of GLSEN’s conferences or reading list, but why use old news as a hook?
Furthermore, the article is a clear effort to associate risky practices with gays in a way similar to that being used now by Martin Ssempa in Uganda. However, the title and tone of the article overlooks an important fact – some heterosexuals also engage in those practices. In fact, if you go on Amazon.com and look up the practices referenced in this article, you will find how-to books written for straights (actually just take my word for it). Would a scientific organization claiming to provide science on sexuality overlook such things?
Now after a brief selective review of opinion and some studies, the authors determine that all things gay are harmful and lead to dysfunction. The studies don’t actually say that but most studies do find that homosexuals as a group report more psychiatric problems than straights and that there are risks associated with some sexual practices. However, the scientific train goes off the track with the conclusion.
Conclusion: An adolescent’s desire to prevent or cease experiencing serious medical, psychological, and relational health risks is sufficient reason for him or her to seek and receive competent psychological care to minimize or resolve the desires, behaviors and lifestyles associated with such increased risks.
Translation: If you experience same-sex attraction, better get some reparative therapy quick so you can avoid all the nastiness.
A scientific organization would then offer research the benefit of reparative therapy for mental health outcomes. The claim in the conclusion above is that changing orientation will allow you to avoid the problems NARTH finds with being gay. However, the problem with the claim is that those studies have not been done. To evaluate Cretella and Sutton’s conclusion, one would want to assess the mental health of ex-gays and gays and see who has the best outcomes.* Or one would expect to see large gains in mental health outcomes as the result of the therapy NARTH proposes. Where are the studies?
An author Cretella and Sutton quote is David Fergusson. Last year, Fergusson had this to say about a similar NARTH review of homosexuality and health risks:
While the NARTH statement provides a comprehensive and accurate analysis of the linkages between sexual orientation and mental health, the paper falls far short of demonstrating that homosexuality should be classified as a psychiatric disorder that may be resolved by appropriate therapy. To demonstrate this thesis requires an in depth understanding of the biological and social pathways that explain the linkages between homosexual orientation and mental health. At present we lack that understanding. Furthermore it is potentially misleading to treat what may be a correlate of mental disorder as though it were a disorder in its own right.
Fergusson also told me that studies designed to demonstrate positive changes in mental health via reparative therapy have not been done. In other words, there are no guarantees that changing orientation, if it could be accomplished in the manner suggested by Cretella and Sutton, would alter the mental health differences currently observed between gay and straight groups.
Julie Harren-Hamilton says the scientific research will speak for itself. However, just across the page, we have two authors providing a conclusion without adequate research. Apparently, on the NARTH website, the research needs a little help to speak in advance.
*There was a study which found better mental health outcomes among a sample of gays than an Exodus sample but this has not been replicated to my knowledge. Nottebaum, L. J., Schaeffer, K. W., Rood, J., & Leffler, D. (2000). Sexual orientation—A comparison study. Manuscript submitted for publication. (Available from Kim Schaeffer, Department of Psychology, Point Loma Nazarene University, 3900 Lomaland Drive, San Diego, CA 92106).
Another study of some relevance is the study of Exodus participants from Jones and Yarhouse. They found that their entire group of participants experienced enhanced mental health over the study period. Inconvenient for the NARTH claim is that the entire sample, whether gay or ex-gay, experienced improved health from Time 1 to Time 6.
Think I have been to this bar Michael is referring to. Have to say it was a friendly, quiet, cozy place where people were polite and appropriate. I even went into the bathroom. It was only when I went out in the parking lot and was told an innocent man was killed by thugs when he was getting into his car one summer night that I felt uncomfortable and shaken and sick. Men come onto women – men come onto men – women come onto men – women come onto women – if you are not interested – WALK AWAY. If it persists, LEAVE where you are. Do not respond with a physical confrontation unless your life is in danger and you must do so to protect yourself.
Thanks Ann. I was moved by your willingness to see those places, to hear those stories and to feel the pain our community — gay and straight — experienced that night. Meeting you and sharing our common humanity was truly a healing experience for me. I will sing a song for you next Monday.
Thanks for your replies & some thoughts to both Ann & Michael Busseee. Will get to Ann’s point about sex being dull among married couples in the end.
If you’re offended by me saying homo, this poster doesn’t appeal to what’s politically safe. Made it clear that if a homosexual man grabs a man’s groin against his will, then reasonable force could be to break the homosexual’s hand(s). With MW Shepard case, already wrote that his death wasn’t justified & if AJ McKinney’s account is true, breaking MW Shepard’s hand(s) would’ve been enough to stop the homolestation. Whether deadly force is necessary to protect 1self is for jurors to decide.
As far as your accusation of do homosexuals sometimes deserve to be beaten up ? If it’s unprovoked where they’re not bothering any1, then no. If it’s self-defense to protect yourself, then yes, some homosexuals do deserve it. If it’s a passion crime where a homo is beaten up or killed after he has harassed some1 in a public restroom, then no it’s not justified (though I don’t empathize with the victim) & juries will usu. convict on 2d Degree or it’ll most likely be pleabargained (most criminal cases are). But passion crimes like that can’t be compared to the 2007 VA Tech Massacre, where a deranged gunman goes into a school & kills 32 people who did nothing to him. Sure all murders & batteries are wrong, but not all murders & batteries are the same-some are just worse than others, which is why we have juries determine if it goes to trial. When it comes to ‘homophobic’ violence, homosexual groups even decry the right to have juries decide cases. Michael Bussee, my conclusions about ‘homophobic’ violence were thought of after thinking about it over a period of time.
As far as harassment which you & Ann refer to. Not to go endlessy about homosexuals who harass others in public restrooms, but again to suggest that you say ‘no thanks’ or in other words ‘don’t harass me’ is a bad idea just as telling a woman who is propositioned while she is using the public restroom by a male janitor to say ‘no thanks’. People don’t have a right to harass you to start with.
Here’s another scenario. Let’s say that in a restaurant, a man goes up to a woman customer & tells her that she has nice boobs. If the woman complains to the manager, then he’ll be expelled for harassment. Even if the woman isn’t offended or even happy about him telling her that she has nice boobs, another woman customer who overhears this may get offended, report it to the owner who’ll expel the male customer. The man could even be arrested for harassment if it’s reported to the police & the cops decide to do this. Now if a homo is going to harass another man in a restaurant in the same scenario, then he should be arrested. Again men who harass women as Ann was writing about don’t have their behaviors tolerated.
To Ann’s point about marital sex. In a truly loving marriage, sex is a minor part of the relationship. There’s just much more to a marriage. There are many couples who don’t have sex after a # years. They’re happy to be in eachother’s company & don’t care to do it anymore. It must be said that many women also lose sexual interest after a few years of marriage, esp. after a woman has had children or after menopause.
The woman may not see her man as strong as he was when he was 25 years old. Again, just in lockerroom & gym talk, I talked to 1 man in his 60s who have told me that he & his wife have been married for over 40 years & that sex in their marriage diminish to the point that it ends, but they’re happy just being in eachother’s company & they don’t need the sex anymore. Women like men also experience libido loss. If a 60 year old man can get a 24 year old woman who is willing to have sex with him w/o him having to pay for it (Chinese proverb-money can buy sex but not love), then that 60 year old man has talent in that he can get young women who finds him interesting.
Coldweatherisfun,
Please give me a couple of examples of what kind of activity, physical or verbal – passive or aggressive, that a person would have to do to justify “deserving it”. I just want to envision it and be clear on what you are saying.
I don’t understand why you insist on using “homo”. Are you trying to be offensive? I am not talking about being “politically safe”. You know the term is offensive and you use it anyway. Do you also use the “N’ word?
Ir not, why not?
Michael Bussee, don’t regard homosexuals as a group comparable to ethnic groups. If you think my intent is to be offensive, then so be it. Homo is a mild word, so don’t see what the stink is. Besides, this poster isn’t even White.
But since you raise race & ethnic issues, as some1 who knows alot about this incl. the 2 World Wars, Korean War & Vietnam War, here are some thoughts. Race & ethnic prejudice isn’t always the result of ignorance-people can fluently understand other ethnic groups & their languages, but still hate them. Germany & Japan are both cultured & advanced nations who have done many nice things to be proud of-most Germans & Japanese are nicepeople. Japan has a long history of turbulence with China which goes back centuries. From the Meiji Restoration in Japan of the 1860s (Germany was also becoming militarily powerful during the same time) through WW2, both Japan & Germany believed that they were the best. Many of the Japanese soldiers who participated in the Rape of Nanking could fluently speak Chinese & fluently understood Chinese culture. Bushido (Samurai’s way) was brought back to Japan during WW2-1931-45.
The Japanese had colonized Korea in 1910 & the Japanese fluently understood the other Asian languages & cultures. Yet though they had a fluent understanding of other Asian cultures & languages (Tagalog in the Phillipines, Korean, etc.), the Japanese leaders believed that their ethnic group was the best & that might made right in colonizing other Asian nations. Incidentally if some1 is 1/2 Japanese & 1/2 Chinese & they were born in China between the years, 1931-45, you can bet that it’s most likely not the result of love.
With Nazi Germany, the Nazis also fluently understood other European cultures, but the Nazis believed the Germans were the best. Many Nazis could speak other European languages. Some of the Einsatzgruppen (Special Action Groups) could fluently speak Russian, Polish & other Slavic languages, when they threw people (most Jewish) in ditches & then killed them.
Adolf Eichmann fluently understood Yiddish which is a Jewish language. This poster is not Jewish, so if any1 wishes to comment on Jewisyh languages, then please do so. It can be said that in the Middle East, many Jews fluently understand Arabic language & culture & many Arabs fluently understand the Jewish culture (Arabs & Jews are both cousins-Semites), yet they still hate eachother. It proves that fluently understanding other ethnic groups doesn’t eliminate animosity & greed.
As to Ann’s point of self-defense, you can reread my past posts of eg. of what reasonable force is to protect 1self . Here’s a case where a jury felt that deadly force was justified. W/o knowing all the evidence as it was presented, it’s easy to critique this jury just by reading a newspaper account huffingtonpost.com/michael-rowe/man-acquitted-of-murder-a
coldweather: I am going to add a plank to the commenting guidelines about using derogatory terms to refer to various groups. You have been informed that homo is offensive. Do not use the term again or I will delete the comment.
Regarding use of force. The kinds of things you are describing are not specific to gays. If someone feels assaulted by anyone regardless of their perceived orientation, one has the right to defend self. There is no need to bring perceived orientation into that kind of discussion.
au contraire – Yiddish is a combination of Russian/Ukrainian and German slang used mostly by European Jews that has nothing to do with a formal language. It is not a surprise that someone of German descent, regardless of their religious beliefs or background would understand it.
Thanks Warren, and thanks for deleting my comment. I did not mean to demean horses in any way.
Coldweatherisfun,
My question was not how to respond to provocation, rather what kind of unwanted activity from another requires a violent physical response from you – here is my question again below
Please give me a couple of examples of what kind of activity, physical or verbal – passive or aggressive, that a person would have to do to justify “deserving it”. I just want to envision it and be clear on what you are saying.
Ann, 1st of all thanks for pointing out what Yiddish is. As my past posts already answer what you’ve asked, for me to write again would be rehash. Perhaps you’re not comprehending what my posts are.
To EW Throckmorton, while you’re right that straights do harass & commit abuse & battery as well, they don’t usu. have apologists like PFLAG who think that harassment & indecent exposure are OK when committed by homoseu, as already mentioned in a past post.
But here’s something regarding repair therapy which usu. doesn’t get attention, but which I admit will be controversial & perhaps offensive if you differ. If a homosexual wants to be straight or celibate & the repair therapy is not succeeding in making him straight (which it often doesn’t), then why don’t the repair therapists with the patients consent give the homosexual drugs which can make him impotent so that he’ll be celibate, if making him straight doesn’t succeed? Before you jump to conclusions, I’m against chemcial & physical castration. But aren’t there drugs which can make a homosexual impotent & help succeed in making him celibate? Impotence benefits homosexuals.
I am struck completely DUMB.
You can (depending on the circumstance) call us names, preach to us, Bible-beat us, debate us, examine us, research us, despise us, analyze us, beat us, “treat” us (sometimes with and sometimes without our consent), demean us, insult us, criminalize us, jail us — even kill us.
You’ll look foolish and hateful. And we we still be here. Still gay. Still proud. After all those trials are over, we still won’t be straight no matter how hard you try or we try. None of that will solve “the problem”. Because that atittude is “the problem” You are the problem. Fix that.
CWIF – there’s nothing for women. An anti-androgen can suppress libido, but in some cases can enhance it.
For men, cyproterone acetate in doses sufficient to suppress lutinising hormone and follicular stimulating hormone production can produce impotence, and reduce libido. But it’s not FDA approved.
Massive doses of Finesteride or Dutasteride, which blocks Testosterone->DHT metabolism can cause a reduction too, but have feminising side-effects in the doses needed.
Spironolactone is an effective anti-androgen, but requires potassium intake to be strictly monitored, and deaths have resulted.
The recommended way of lowering libido is bilateral orchiectomy – a rather permanent solution. Hormone balance can then be kept at a healthy level through lifelong hormone replacement therapy. I suggest you try it, and get back to us with your experiences.
Michael Bussee, don’t understand why you raise the Bible when it’s not my faith. You were offended but again, this poster opposes forcing any1 into repair therapy & also mentioned that it’s optional.
The issue is that it’s best to help end same sex behaviors if that’s what they want, regardless of orientation change. If a homosexual wants to be celibate, then what’s wrong with a psychologist suggesting that he take a drug which makes him impotent-depending on what the drug is? I’m against sex changes & thus oppose feminizing drugs. Which drugs are there that don’t involve feminization & can cause impotence w/o causing a disease? Of course I know that they’ll still be gay even if they’re impotent, but if it makes them lifelong celibates providing that this is what they want, then it’s for the better. Anyhow, think carefully.
coldweatherisfun–
What led you to discover this blogsite in the first place?
Hello Eddy. Thinking over what was written by me & the angry replies it has generated by 2 posters incl. a personal attack illustrates & further reinforces my points. What’s ironic is that it’s even OK to be against straight sexual activities. My guess is that Michael Bussee has no problem with bisexuality while he condemns repair therapy to try to cure or better treat homosexuality.
Given that Michael Bussee didn’t decry sex changes when it was asked by me, it further proves that he only supports science when it agrees, which is typical of most homosexual groups. It’s wrong to have repair therapy for those who wish to be straight, but in their view it’s Ok to surgically maim some1 to make them an artificial member of the opposite sex. Homosexual groups usu. don’t have any problem with the idea of puberty delaying drugs which was raised earlier by me.
Yet when I raised a hypothetical where a repair therapist honestly tells a homose that repair therapy in trying to make him straight hasn’t been successful so far but if he wants to be a lifelong celibate, here’s a drug which if the homosexual wants it can make him celibate by causing impotence w/o any mutilation & where the client has been informed, the hostile replies come.
Michael Bussee & other posters who reacted angrily to my hypothetical either don’t have a problem or certainly haven’t protested sex changes & Drs. prescribing puberty delaying drugs to teens with GID, because it’s science they agree with-for that reason it’s contradictory & inconsistent for them to condemn my hypothetical scenario. Think carefully before you reply. Thanks.
coldweatherisfun–
You know something, perhaps you ought not to advise people to ‘think carefully before responding’ when you obviously don’t take your own advice. My post to you was quite simple:
You addressed your comment to me but you didn’t even begin to hint at the answer to my question.
We’ve had many a stranger join our conversations from time to time but you are definitely a special case. We discuss matters that are weighty and we also get very personal at times, so I want to know what led you to discover this blogsite to begin with?
Don’t be mistaken, it’s not just Michael that you are ticking off. I’ve found some of your comments so off the wall that I didn’t even know how to respond. Perhaps if we understand what led you here in the first place, we’ll be able to put some of your annoying nuances behind us.
Yes, telling a person to ‘please think carefully before responding’ is a bit annoying. It implies that we need to be told…and somehow it suggests that your words are worth reading and weighing more than once. So far, I haven’t seen much that was worth reading even once.
So, do me a favor, follow the advice you gave to me and to Michael and ‘think carefully before responding’ to the question “what led you to discover this blogsite in the first place?”
Coldweatherisfun,
You’re welcome. I learned about Yiddish on a missionary trip to the Ukraine.
Regarding your prior posts and the possibility that I am not comprehending what you have written – I think I have but just to make sure I will read them again.
coldweatherisfun,
Eddy has asked you a good question and one that I am interested in as well – what brought you to this blog?
LOL! Oh wow – this phrase speaks volumes about the person who wrote it!
CWIF wrote:
None that I know of.
I’m Intersexed, with a condition so rare and a metabolism so endocrinally anomalous that any treatment for me has to be classed as “experimental”. Hence I’ve had to become aware of the effects of various hormones, just so I can self-monitor. On expert advice, I have to titrate doses according to somatic changes rather than lab levels.
In any event, I probably know more about such matters than anyone else here. There’s been no published studies I know of on the effects of chemical castration on a set of people purely self-selected on the basis of sexual orientation. Very few published studies on chemical castration in general.
I leave aside the ethical questions vis a vis third parties. I do think though that since this is so important to you, it would be ethical to use yourself as an experimental subject.
Since this poster has no problems, it’s unethical to ask this poster to be an experimental subject. Homosexuals who want to be celibate but have failed @ repair therapy would be the perfect experimental subjects. Admittely, my position is off the wall, but IMV, any1 who is an apologist for sex changes has no right to condemn my hypothetical idea of helping homosexuals become impotent, because that’s no different than a big time thief like BE Madoff condemning a shoplifter. You also have no right to condemn my view of supporting a woman’s right to abort unborn homosexual, GID & intersexed babies. As far as Eddy’s ? on how the blog was found, well on an Internet search-google, find & comment.
Thought about what Ann was asking about what harassment & provocation are. Here’s a synonym. Let say that a man goes up to another man in the workplace & tells him that his mom who just died was a slut & talks about his mom in a sexual manner. The man having had enough beats up the harasser. Now OK Ann, the right thing to do in that situation is to walk away & report this to his boss, but it’s understandable why he beat the harasser up. Many people won’t sympathize with the harasser. Yes, the man must be punished for assault&battery, but most people aren’t going to say that he is the Devil Incarnate.
Now let’s say that in the same workplace, a homosexual starts harassing a man who after having had enough, he beats up the homosexual. Again, the man must be punished for assault&battery, but the situation is the same as the above paragraph & to suggest that he is the Devil Incarnate is just wrong.
Most people who commit crimes such as assault&battery as well as murder are usu. ordinary people who just lose it. Yes murder is a serious crime, but cops will tell you that murderers can be the nicest people.
BTW, since you lived in the Ukraine, you may know that during Operation Barbarossa (WW2), there were Latvians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians & Estonians who fought in the Wehrmacht against the Red Army during the Battles of Stalingrad & Leningrad. Sometimes brothers killed other brothers. Stalin killed way more than Hitler & how many Americans know of Dubno, Kolyma, Krasnogorsk & other GULag of the former USSR? More people were starved & worked to death here as well as being sent to Vorkuta (or Workuta), north of the Arctic Circle. Many people can recognize Himmler, Eichmann & Mengele, but how many people can recognize Lazar Kaganovich, Genrikh Yagoda or Lev Mekhlis-Stalin’s Soviet thugs? As you were in the Ukraine, you may have heard horror stories of Stalin’s Cheka squads who killed people brutally by tortures, beating prisoners to death & they’ve learned that the former USSR actually had the 1st gas vans.
During WW2, in SOME cases, the Imperial Japanese (who fought against the USSR from 1938-39 & again in Aug. 1945 shortly before Japan’s surrender) & the Nazi Germans did kill bad people who were Stalin’s henchmen. Of course, if you’re waging a war & killing millions, in some cases you’re going to kill evil people. The Commissar Order comes to mind. Among those shot & killed in the ditches by the Einsatzgruppen were Stalin’s Commissars. Well the Commissar Order should be called evil men (Nazis) killing other evil people who were Stalin’s Soviet Commissars (both men & women were in Stalin’s execution squads & women could sometimes be more violent than the men).
Some of Stalin’s Soviet henchmen ended up being starved & worked to death (Ar Beit Macht Frei) in Auschwitz or were killed by other means in Nazi concentration camps. Yes, the Nazis were evil, but in SOME cases, the Nazis did kill bad people & the Stalin’s Soviet henchmen were the bad people killed by the Nazis during the war. Anyhow, if you want to do a history discussion, please share your thoughts. Thanks.
coldweatherisfun–
You answered how you found this blogsite but not what led you here. My question was intermixed with a lot of other words, please reread them and tell us why it is that our discussions interested you enough that you followed that link you found and why it is you feel that you have a vested interest in these discussions? As I mentioned we discuss things that are a bit weighty and often highly personal, for that reason, we’d like to know why a person who isn’t a Christian…who isn’t gay or ex-gay…who isn’t a professional therapist…has such an interest in our conversations and feels they have so much to provide us by way of enlightenment?
No, you just have no insight into your condition, making the outlook very poor.
Denial that you have a problem is a common part of the syndrome.
OK Eddy hopefully this answers you. Admit to having bad experiences with homosexuals in the workplace which has generated my hostility. Came to this website to offer a new view, though it’s hard to do. Not here to be wise or smart, just generate ideas. As to not being a Christian, well it’s not required to be a Christian to see something wrong with homosexuality & GID. 1 can be Jewish, Muslim (Moslem), Hindu, or 1 can even be an atheist. This poster doesn’t always agree with evangelical Christians on topics such as abortion & our involvement in the Middle East, but this poster agrees with the evengelical Christians on the harms of homosexuality & GID. Finally, to the transexual poster, given that you’re an apologist for sex changes, your views are worthless.
coldweatherisfun–
Thanks for your more complete answer. It helps to understand where you’re coming from.
Something to understand about this forum…we KNOW we disagree but we try to come here with some semblance of mutual respect. Comments such as “your views are worthless” are, IMHO, way out of line. You can disagree with someone; point out the flaws in their logic; raise questions about their conclusions or point of view…but to say (and believe) that someone’s views are worthless is a level of disrespect that I believe most of us are extremely uncomfortable with.
If you continue to demonstrate such disrespect to our fellow bloggers, who we have chosen to dialogue with, you will likely find that it will be your own posts that are rendered worthless…we’ll simply skip right past them. Like the proverbial tree falling in a forest, it really won’t matter much if you’re making a sound…no one’s going to hear it.
Point of Order!
I’m not Transsexual, neither technically nor biologically. Nor legally, I’m unable to have my birth certificate changed under the UK Gender Recognition Act, as I don’t conform to the required ICD-10 diagnosis of Transsexuality. This diagnosis requires that the patient not be Intersexed.
Psychologically, yes, I had classic Transsexuality, the only thing that doesn’t conform to the stereotype is a lack of cross-dressing. Mid-way between Type V and Type VI on the Benjamin scale though.
Technically, I’m a protandrous dichogamous pseudohermaphrodite. An Intersexed female who looked more male than female at birth, but whose body normalised later in life.
It’s a rare syndrome (to put it mildly).
Protogynous dichogamous pseudohermaphrodites are far more common. Intersexed males who look more female than male at birth, but whose bodies normalise later in life. That’s almost always due to either 5alpha-reductase-2 deficiency (5alpha-RD-2) or 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency (17beta-HSD-3) syndromes.
See for example this CNN program on a cluster of 17BHDD cases.
Or The ‘Guevedoces’ of the Dominican Republic by the Urological Sciences Research Foundation.
The two syndromes differ in minor details in their somatic effects: 17BHDD cases usually require surgery to look completely normal, 5ARD cases less often.
Still, while technically speaking the label “Transsexual” cannot apply to such cases, that’s a rather pedantic view in my opinion. I used to look male (mostly).. I now look female (mostly). That that was the result of a natural rather than therapeutically-induced change is to me a minor detail of no importance.
Sex Identity – called Gender Identity in the literature for historical reasons – is determined by the neuro-anatomy anyway, rather than genitalia, chromosomes etc. See Prof Sid Ecker’s excellent presentation on the subject at last year’s APA annual conference.
Getting back to your own issues, perhaps you should think about seeking therapeutic help. Your desire to distress others, and the obsession you have with genital reconstructive surgery, are things which you might be aware of yourself, looking at your posts. It is quite reasonable to feel discomfort at the thought of such, but when you talk about eugenic cleansing and discount the opinions of others with no rational explanation, the situation becomes pathological. Your use of the impersonal pronoun “this poster” might be clinically significant, especially if you have gone through Parris Island.
However, I’m no mental health professional, and it’s usually unhelpful to get a patient to have insight into their own condition. It just entrenches their position, and strengthens their irrational and increasingly bizarre behaviours.
Coldweatherisfun,
When you say you have no problems, are you referring to your sex life? Able to stand to attention each and every time with the opposite sex? If so, I am wondering why you find locker room talk from others so credible and interesting instead of being fortified and sustained with and from your own sexual life.
Well, you are certainly entitled to an opinion, however, I am not sure how many individuals would consider this as a remedy to unwanted attractions or desires. It seems to me that if one starts with the truth of these feelings, then any real healing will begin with that. Actually Dr. Throckmorton said it better than that but the words and thoughts are similar and I agree. The stronghold is lessened when we acknowledge that it is there.
I am not condemning it, however, I will submit to you that, from my point of view, that all life, from the moment of conception, has intrinsic value and should be treated as such.
What is understandable is that the person who is doing the harrasing is a jerk. I do not think the appropriate response is to beat him up – not that I wouldn’t want to, however, I am not sure if it would be a good investment of time or energy to spend on a jerk. I also would not want to jeopardize my job. Words, in and of themselves, do not justify a physical response that could compromise my well being.
Again, I am going to ask you to define what constitutes harrassment – I need to envision and understand it before I answer.
Well, most ordinary people exercise discipline instead of resorting to physical violence. If my life is in emminent danger or I am being physically accosted so that I am being injured, I would have no problem responding in a way that would eliminate any further injury. In all other instances, I feel capable of exercising my well honed skills of self discipline.
I never said I lived in the Ukraine – I said I went there on a missionary trip.
I am familiar with some of this but not all of it. I talked with many, through translators, who had served in the Red Army, also many who had lost loved ones at Babi Yar and other places the Nazi’s invaded, and many who are holocaust survivors that we helped move their meager belongings from their schtetls to Israel, which they now call their home. I appreciate the discussion on this as it is one that I am very interested in, however, I want to respect Dr. Throckmorton’s request that all posts stay on topic. I also want to respect his request that the word Nazi not be used. My apology for using it in this response.
Have you considered therapy for this? It must have been pretty bad to generate this level of sustained animosity. What happened? What did you do about it? Does the guy still have use of his hands?
To Ann & Michael Bussee. Hopefully this will be my last post & it addresses your points, as there really isn’t anything significantly new that I can think of. But here it goes. Don’t have much more to add to lockerroom/gym talk which Ann asks about but yes, it’s credible in that the men Iwho have told me that they have had sex with many women work in a job or have done things which gives them the potential for this to happen-entertainment, college football player. The former college football player told me that getting alot of pretty women is 1 of the rewards for playing sports. He also told me that NASCAR (can NASCAR be called a sport) drivers can potentially have sex with many women if they want to because again, certain types of men are just interesting to many women. You can bet that many men would love to have the chance to do alot of women if they had the personality. But to the other points you raised.
What the homosexual employee would do is graphically talk about homo&bisexual acts during work hours with other employees. When complaints were made about this, the employer did nothing. Yes, he still has use of his hands, though he had 1 broken arm in a cast as a result of an accident. I didn’t work @ that company very long as I was a bad worker. No, I didn’t commit violence against, but I certainly felt like hitting him when he graphically discussed homosexual activities during work hours. But it’s not worth getting arrested & jailed for. To my knowledge, the company did nothing about it & @least 2 other former employees complained about this harassment.
As to what harassment is, the above eg. is 1. Let me say that it’s my belief that even if some1 is provoking & harassing you, it’s not worth to beat up or kill some1. Why spend the next 25 years or perhaps the rest of your life in prison for killing some1 in a passion crime? Ann, you & Michael Bussee are wrong if you think I believe some1 who commits a passion crime shouldn’t be held legally accountable for it. They should.
With assault&battery how much jail time you get depends on a # of factors such as was there provocation by the victim or was it an unprovoked attack; what are the injuries that the victim sustained (was it a punch in the face-usu. a misdemeanor or was it a stabbing a felony?) & does the suspect have past convictions.
With murder, yes the punishment is more. If it’s 1st Degree Murder, it’s life without parole in almost all cases & in most states the option of the death penalty is there. 2nd Degree Murder & Manslaughter both carry life sentences, but the possiblity of parole does exist after the convicted murderer has spent many years in prison-mandatory minimum sentences. But as written, it’s really not worth killing some1 who has provoked you & spend 20 years or perhaps the rest of your life in prison for killing some1 who has provoked you.
Hopefully you & Michael Bussee understand that indeed I do believe people who commit crimes such as assault&battery as well as murder, must be held accountable & go to prison for many years if it’s murder. My hopefully final thoughts on homosexuality are this. Michael Bussee, right or wrong, you’ll live your life as you see fit. You probably won’t change your views & no, you can’t be forced into repair therapy. But if a homosexual wants repair therapy to go straight, then let them do so. Already written that if same sex behaviors & Gender Dsyphoria (GID) disappears, then I’m for it.
I also believe the same way if baseball were to disappear. I don’t watch baseball, but as long as people have interest in this sport, it’ll exist. But let’s say that people share my interest & lose interest in baseball in the future & this sport disappears. Then I won’t lose sleep if baseball disappeared.
I used to watch boxing but since I don’t have Pay Per View, I’m not going to pay to watch TV-Pay Per View is a ripoff. As it turns out, boxing is disappearing because people are losing interest in this sport, as Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) has gained popularity. I do like watching football, likemany Americans. But if people lost interest in watching football & it disappears because there isn’t the interest to play this sport, then that’s what happens. Those are my thoughts & hopefully it answers your ?s.
Thanks. I will and do live my life that way. So should everyone else live according to their conscience — as long as it does not infringe on another person’s rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
If the goal of the therapy is to help the client become heterosexual — to go straight — I believe the counselor, therapist, doctor or pastoral counselor has the moral and ethical responsibility to educate the patient regarding the likeliness of that happening. If I had a client who wanted to stop craving heterosexual relationships or heterosexual sex, I feel I would have the very same responsibiltiy to make it known whether or not the available science supported such a goal.
I have never had an objection to a person trying not to act on their gay (or straight) feelings. That is their right. I have never had a problem with a therapist supporting a patient’s right to choose the way they live their life as they see fit or even to pursure orientation change, if that is their choice. I have not seen good, solid scientific evidence of it.
That said, I do feel a professional and moral responsibility to tell them what I know about whether or not the available science supports such a goal — and whether or not I have the skill to help them change their orientation. I don’t think the science does and I don’t have that knowledge or skill. I don’t think anyone else does either. At least I have seen no good scientific evidence of orientation change — partcularly in gay males.
coldweatherisfun,
Thank you for the example – I agree that it was inappropriate in the work place and the employer should have put the person on a written warning. Obviously, this didn’t take place or followed up on. I am also glad you exercised self discipline and realized that it was not worth you jeopardizing you well being to meet the incident with a physical response. I actually believe you are a different man beneath the facade you have shown – one that is not quite as judgemental as you seem. I also hope you find a loving relationship – one that brings out the best in you.
As to the comment about doing without baseball – that is something that I could never agree with – can’t wait for opening day and want the Dodger’s to go all the way to the world series!
THAT, my friend, is an understatement
There is a great NPR piece of how the APA de-pathologized homosexuality – a friend of mine sent this to me yesterday – thought it is was somewhat fitting since it discusses Charles Socarides and NARTH
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=204
Of course! Couldn’t agree with you more on this point. That’s why I wish the guys who harrassed, gay-bashed and stabbed me — and who murdered by best friend without provocation as we left a local gay bar — would have gotten much longer sentences.
Unllike me and Jeffery, at least you survived your “bad experiences with homosexuals in the workplace” physically (if not psychologically) unharmed.
http://www.riversideca.gov/rpd/press/2002releases/jun20a02.htm
.
Michael,
Thank you Michael. It was a privilege to be there and with you and your friends. I will never forget how everyone accepted and included me, walking together in honor of Jefferey, how we all talked with each other and cried and hugged and how my heart felt when I left – so grateful and humbled and inspired.
This is hopefully my last post on this website &
Removed by Throckmorton – Way off topic.
LOL.
coldweatherisfun: My friend, you’ve really got to get yourself a clue. While you might want to inspire a discussion of the OJ Simpson case, this is a website belonging to Dr Warren Throckmorton. He picks and presents the main topics…we do our best to discuss them and tangential issues. OJ Simpson’s trials aren’t even tangential.
Also interesting that this is the second time you’ve said that it is probably your last post. I’m okay with that…we’ve all said we were stepping away only to find ourselves still here. What is peculiar is that you’d say that just as you announced you were leaving. Makes no sense unless your only aim was to pick something controversial simply to watch people rant.
Coldweatherisfun,
I read your comments above and will read them again and respond a little later.
coldweatherisfun has been deleted due to multiple violations of the commenting guidelines. He continues to find new IP addresses however. I am trying to keep up.
coldweatherisfun.
what does the word “disabuse” mean?
Ann, will answer what you’ve asked shortly, but you’ll need to inform EW Throckmorton know that you’re interested in what my views are & wish to have a dialogue with me, as he is hostile to my views. Anyhow, to Ann’s points including answering what disabuse means.
Ann, what you wrote about ‘Peter Pan’ syndrome is actually ordinary. It’s normal for a man to want the prettiest youngest women. Younger women are prettier & with older women, well, looks masculinize with age. Older women have deeper voices, look more masculine & thus it’s expected for most men to lose interest sexually in a wife or girlfriend as the years pass. In fact older women lose libido & sexual interest in their husbands as the years pass as younger men are just more handsome. After 30 years old, both men & women’s libido decr. With women, ovulation raises libido physically while childbirth, aging (esp. menopause onwards) & diseases will reduce libido (for men as well). Keep in mind that for an old man to get a young woman, well the old man must have charm & be interesting (w/o the money that is). A younger man will have the edge (he’ll be more handsome) when it comes to getting young women. If a 60 year old man can get a 20 year old woman to be interested in him & have sex with him (again w/o spending money), then he must have charm & has to be interesting-that’s where the talent is.
AC Kinsey made the 1950s idea that women’s libido is greatest during the 30s & 40s, but this idea must be disabused & has been by neutral sexologists. Disabuse means to dispel a false belief with facts. The forces which reduce libido are > than the forces which raise it. Sex is best when couples are newlyweds & as the years pass, well it becomes boring for most couples as the novelty runs out, among other things. As people get older, they see more stressful events in life, such as tragic events, among other things. People who work in certain jobs will have lower libidos. You can be sure that war veterans, cops, paramedics & Fire Dept. will often have lower libidos. Seeing children killed & mangled in wrecks can traumatize the mind & thus result in insomnia, nightmares, libido loss, etc.
The main point among other things is that Ann, it’s normal for a man to want the prettiest youngest women to have sex with because younger women will be sexually desirable, while an older woman often won’t be. As mentioned, there are women who after menopause have the ‘don’t ask don’t tell’ policy when it comes to their husbands affairs which is that if their husband wants to have an affair with a much younger woman because the wife can’t give him the sexual satisfaction anymore, they don’t have a problem with it. Another main point is that in marriages, loss of sexual interest happens. While the official # currently has sexless marriages @ 2%, it’s my belief that the actual # is higher, perhaps between 5 to 10%. As people age, sex frequency goes down. A happy marriage is the ability to enjoy eachother’s company, long after the sex has become boring & ended. Sexual bliss for most people will only last a few years into the marriage. Anyhow, your thoughts are welcome & please let Dr. EW Throckmorton know that you’re interested in reading & replying to what my views are. Thanks.
coldweatherisfun,
I want to respect Dr. Throckmorton’s decision on this matter. I will consider all the information you imparted as information you wanted or needed to share rather than information you thought I needed to know. I still don’t know what the word “disabuse” means though.
Thanks Ann for your thoughts. Another way to define disabuse would be to debunk a false idea. For eg. 2 + 2 = 4. If you heard & believed that it’s 5, then by me telling you it = 4 would disabuse the idea (false notion) that it = 5.
On another note Ann, I didn’t post here to provoke but rather to be thought provoking. Ok, I admit that on some of my posts, I ended up being provocative by poorly writing things which wasn’t my intent to do so, but haven’t others? I do feel that the problem with some of my posts was not only that I poorly worded it, but that people perhaps didn’t understand where I was going with it.
I used to post here in 2007, but had an absence until March 2010, mainly because the discussions became repetitive & why discuss what’s been talked about by others with regard to homosexuality so many times. I don’t have the interest to discuss homosexuality per se, because what more can we say? I posted again mainly to discuss a topic of homosexuality which people don’t give much thought to. Anyhow, if you wish to have a private dialogue with me by my email address & not here on the message board, you’re welcome to do so. If Dr. EW Throckmorton wishes to give you my personal email address, then he can do so, but only if you wish to have email discussion. Hopefully, I’ve answered your ? on what disabuse means. Best wishes. Thanks.
EDITED, REPLACES 11:58 AM POST
Thanks Ann for your thoughts. Another way to define disabuse would be to debunk a false idea. For eg. 2 + 2 = 4. If you heard & believed that it’s 5, then by me telling you it = 4 would disabuse the idea (false notion) that it = 5.
On another note Ann, I didn’t post here to provoke but rather to be thought provoking. Ok, I admit that on some of my posts, I ended up being provocative by poorly writing things which wasn’t my intent to do so, but haven’t others? I do feel that the problem with some of my posts was not only that I poorly worded it, but that people perhaps didn’t understand where I was going with it.
I used to post here in 2007, but had an absence of almost 2 years & 6 months until February 2010, mainly because the discussions became repetitive & why discuss what’s been talked about by others with regard to homosexuality so many times. I don’t have the interest to discuss homosexuality per se, because what more can we say? I posted again mainly to discuss a topic of homosexuality which people don’t give much thought to. Anyhow, if you wish to have a private dialogue with me by my email address & not here on the message board, you’re welcome to do so. If Dr. EW Throckmorton wishes to give you my personal email address, then he can do so, but only if you wish to have email discussion. Hopefully, I’ve answered your ? on what disabuse means. Best wishes. Thanks.
coldweatherisfun,
I should have looked up the word “diabuse” in the dictionary – sorry – I understand what it means now – I consider myself very well read but have not seen that word before.
Also, when you say this,
it loses it’s sincerity when you add this,
It is always better received when you just admit an err and take responsibility for it. Also, much more appealing and conducive to re-connecting.
As to the all the other things you wrote – while the information you imparted could be interesting to some on a particular level, I would venture to say these are things, if felt, are better to be left within a private thought. I think this would be a good example of how to exercise discipline and self restraint. If you are an introspective man, you might consider looking at your own attributes and limitations and how they could benefit a relationship rather than looking at those qualities in others that you find so offensive. A creative man can have sex with a donut. A man who scrutinizes and finds fault will always be looking for others to do his work for him sexually. When we see ourselves with a sense of reality, we can then see others in a different light. Self centeredness is never sexy – it is boring.
Thanks Ann. It’s fine that you asked me to define what disabuse means. To your other point. 1st of all on your 2nd point , if a man wants to have sex with the prettiest youngest women & can find young women willing to do it, then that’s good. You keep talking about the man this & that (as though sex is somehow the man’s sole responsibility when IMO it’s not the important part of a straight relationship), yet you ignore that the older woman doesn’t want to do it anymore & tolerates the man fooling around with younger woman. Younger men & women are the 1s who are the most beautiful as beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. As people get older, well nature makes them ugly. Sex is really supposed to be about procreation, not recreation. If a woman is past her childbearing years or has passed menopause, she won’t be able to mother any more kids & thus it won’t be interesting for a man to have sex with a woman who can’t bear kids, because of well the base animal instinct. This is true in the animal world-lions, bears & other animals will look for female species who they can have sex with to procreate, not recreate.
Anyhow to your other point, where my past posts offended some people & where perhaps people didn’t understand or became hostile to me was when the politics surrounding homophobic violence was discussed-my point is that most other batteries & murders don’t have ideology surrounding it. It’s easy to discuss that some1 committed battery or murder, but evaluating WHY something happened is a different matter & my evaluation got hostility as it has on other sites.
You read my eg. of a man who kills another man or woman after the victim had provoked him by telling him that the man’s mom was a slut, where the man tired of hearing the victim insult his mom, hits the victim or in worst case scenario pulls the trigger & shoots the victim dead in a passion crime. Ok, it’s 2nd Degree Murder & the man must spend many years & possibly the rest of his life in prison. Many people (perhaps some who post here) would say that while the man should go to prison, that the victim was an expletive & they’d discuss how ordinary people can lose it if given the circumstances. There usu. won’t be politics which surround this passion crime & chances are you won’t have a Day of Silence for these victims.
What offended people was when the scenario was raised by me of a man who kills a homosexual who is harassing him in the public restroom-though such a case has similar circumstances as the above eg.-that the crime happened as a result of provocation, there are politics & even a religion which surrounds this victim. My issue isn’t the law-already stated that it’s not worth killing some1 who is harassing you & spend perhaps the rest of your life in prison, but rather to end the religion surrounding this victim-writing this got me condemned-which most people wouldn’t do if I were discussing the above eg.. It wasn’t written to insult you, but rather to get you to consider things you may not have thought about. If a 15 year old high school student were to say the same things just done here (comparing the 2 eg.) during a Day of Silence @ a High School, that student may get detention or get suspended from school for thinking critically.
I didn’t give much thought & reach my conclusions about why homophobic violence sometimes happens & the poltics of this in 1 day-but as written earlier, by talking with & then thinking considerably about it-this took me years to do. The reason I posted about this in Feb. & March 2010 after an absence of almost 2.5 years on this website was to challenge people’s thinking on this, not to again discuss homosexuality & repair therapy per se (though I started by doing this) mainly because my views on this were given in 2006 & 2007 under the ID Swissalps & n/i in duplicating what had already been discussed.
There are other things that could be written by me which chances are wouldn’t offend most people. If I were to discuss a topic of can a Jewish man who lost relatives during the Holocaust work with a German w/o hating him or her, it wouldn’t generate much controversy. This is written because in a similar case, when my dad was an engineer, he knew a case of where a Japanese engineer (who worked @ his company) didn’t get along with a Chinese engineer & felt that the Chinese engineer treated him unfairly. It’s a good possibility that the Chinese engineer had relatives killed during WW2 by Japanese soldiers-China & Japan have a long turbulent history. There are many Jews who won’t drive a German car (incidentally Ferdinand Porsche Sr. was the engineer who created the VW Beetle) & there are Chinese & other Asians who won’t drive a Japanese car. My point on this is that discussing the other topics incl. this relations topic between Jews & Germans; Chinese & Japanese; etc. usu. won’t generate the hostile & even volatile responses (though people would say that it’s controversial & touchy) as my view on homosexuality does.
Finally, here’s 2 weak answers people sometimes give, when I’ve discussed what I just did surrounding homosexuality. 1 theme which isn’t about homosexuality but what people have written when I’ve discussed this is that society doesn’t take seriously men who sexually harass, rape & abuse women-this is untrue. Sexual harassment lawsuits disabuse this. In fact, rape & sex abuse by men against women is taken so seriously that it even has resulted in cases where men accused of rape & sex abuse were zealously pursued by prosecutors only for the men to later be found innocent. The 2006 Duke case is an eg. where several men were accused of gang rape, zealously pursued, only to later be found innocent. Society also zealously prosecutes men accused of of hitting (battery) their wife or girlfriend & some of the men prosecuted for domestic violence against their wives & girlfriends are innocent & didn’t do what they were accused of-cops sometimes do reach the wrong conclusion in domestic violence cases.
The 2d answer is the theme that if a homosexuals harasses a man in a public restroom, some people (usu. homosexual groups but even some straights) give the weak answer that the man should just say ‘no thanks’ & walk away. Again, propositioning some1 in a public restroom is a crime-harassment, disorderly conduct & disturbing the peace. There’s no need for a man to say ‘no thanks’ to a homosexual who propositions him in a pubic restroom for the same reason as there’s no reason for a shopkeeper to tell customers ‘don’t steal’-no need to say no that what the other person had no right to do in the 1st place. If some1 is committing harassment, theft, etc. then they must be reported to the police, arrested & jailed. Hopefully people incl. Dr. EW Throckmorton aren’t offended by what’s being written here. If you have nothing more of significance to share, then thanks for having this dialogue with me. Best wishes.
coldweatherisfun,
I read this last post several times and will try to respond to some of your comments.
I understand your observation and experience that men want to mostly have sex with young and pretty women. I don’t think much has changed there over the years. I also understand your position that older women are not as attractive and that it has been your experience that they do not want to have sex as much. You also mentioned that in this scenario, they think it is ok for their husband to find other women to have sex with. While these might all be true or partially true or not true at all depends on the people involved. I just don’t think I can impart anything further of value about it in a broad sense.
Regarding individuals who express a sexual interest in others, whether it be the same gender or opposite gender, and the other person is not interested, I still maintain the best response is to walk away. If a life or physical well being is in jeporady, then defending oneself anyway one can becomes necessary and is justifiable.
As to the comments that offended others, we have all done them – they important thing to remember is that you don’t have to do it twice. You sound like someone who has interesting thoughts and are interested in what others have to say. That is great.
Regarding your other comments about ethnicities, religions, etc. – they all sound very interesting and I am sure lots of discussion could come out of it. I want to respect Dr. Throckmorton’s admonishment though to stay on topic.
EDITED FOR SPELLING MISTAKES.
Thanks Ann for sharing your thoughts. With harassment-words people use such as ‘unwanted sexual advances’ is a euphemism. You wrote to just walk away if 1 is being harassed, but just as there no need to say no to harassment, there’s also no need to walk away when youre’ being harassed in a business such as a restaurant you like to eat in, as again the other person had no right to do that to you in the 1st place. If a homosexual is going to harass customers by propositioning them in a restaurant, then the person who should be ejected is the homosexual & if he refuses to leave, then he should be jailed for harassment.
You can find cases in business such as restaurants, where a man propositions or makes sexual comments to a woman customer (such as telling the woman that she has big boobs) & after she or another female customer complains the manager, the manager either tells him to leave w/o incident & if he refused to do so, the manager reports him to the cops, who then either escort the man from the business & give him a warnin; or arrest the man for harassment-the police officer’s discretion. Even if the woman doesn’t personally care about being propositioned or hearing that she has big boobs, other women who are in that restaurant or other business may care & after all, a restaurant, store or any other business is the place to eat, shop & do business.
So your idea that if some1 is being harassed in a business, the person should just walk away is weak because again, there’s no need to walk away from what the other person had no right to do to you in the 1st place. A synonym would be if some1 is working in a company doing a job that they like & they’re being harassed by another employee, it’s a bad idea to suggest that the person just walk away & quit their job, because again the other person had no right to harass in the 1st place.
Thank you Dr. E.W. Throckmorton for permitting me to post here & have this dialogue, though much of what was posted by me is peripheral to your topic of NARTH-does the research speak for itself? Hopefully, my writings here have generated something for you & other posters to think about, that you may have given little if any thought to before my short return here. Thanks again for permitting me to post & have my dialogue.