Shortly after the Anti-Homosexuality Bill was introduced in Uganda, I requested information and a statement from Pastor Rick and his wife Kay Warren about the bill. Rick Warren’s work in Uganda is significant as is noted here and here. I also asked their views regarding the advocacy for the bill by Ugandan pastor Martin Ssempa.
Regarding the Anti-Homosexuality Bill, Ssempa recently told me
I am in total support of the bill and would be most grateful if it did pass.
This statement below clearly explains that the Warrens cut ties with Ssempa in 2007. Ssempa’s advocacy of the Anti-Homosexuality Bill is the culmination of increasingly aggressive measures antagonistic to homosexuality. In addition to the bill’s assault on human dignity via the death penalty and prison terms, the bill’ reporting requirements would make the work of any missionary, pastoral counselor, physician, or health care provider working with sexuality incredibly difficult, if not impossible.
Here is their statement:
STATEMENT FROM PASTOR RICK & KAY WARREN REGARDING ACTIVITIES OF MARTIN SSEMPA IN UGANDA
Martin Ssempa does not represent me, my wife Kay, Saddleback Church, nor the Global PEACE Plan strategy. In 2007, we completely severed contact with Mr. Ssempa when we learned that his views and actions were in serious conflict with our own. Our role, and the role of the PEACE Plan, whether in Uganda or any other country, is always pastoral and never political. We vigorously oppose anything that hinders the goals of the PEACE Plan: Promoting reconciliation, Equipping ethical leaders, Assisting the poor, Caring for the sick, and Educating the next generation.
I applaud Rick and Kay Warren for making this clear statement and hope that Ugandan Christians will consider the wisdom in it. I urge other Christian groups and leaders around the world to follow suit.
Join the Facebook group, Speak Out Against Uganda’s Anti-Homosexuality Bill, 2009 for more information.
Thanks for posting this Warren. It is encouraging news.
Political Research Associates Calls on Rick Warren to Denounce Proposed Antigay Law in Uganda
I am thankful for this statements from the Warren’s but I join those who wish that the Warren’s had specifically and strongly opposed the bill itself — and not just distanced themselves from Ssempa.
In essence, Rick Warren has turned his back not only to Ssempa, but also to all those in Uganda who will be harmed and even murdered because of this legislation. Until he clearly denounces this act itself, he will have the blood of those who suffer on his hands.
Richard,
That’s sort of a harsh judgment on your part. FYI, everyone of us has blood on our hands.
I will not apologize for my statement. “We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”. Yes, but some do that with acute intentionality. Few of us have gone to Africa to instill American fundamentalist values into a culture that is not able to assimilate them in an humane manner. Rick Warren is like Pilate washing his hands of the whole affair, but like Macbeth the stain will never be removed. Until Rick Warren and the triumvirate that most directly instigated this pogrom by their vitriol this past spring take aggressive action to reverse this event, I will remain adamant in my denunciation of them all.
I think you accord far too much influence to Rick Warren and the American “triumvirate” in Uganda, Richard. Uganda has a history and a will of its own. Check out where its own president and First Lady have stood for some time now.
They didn’t start the fire, they may have added heat.
Status report on the Facebook group. Over 1,420 people have spoken out. We add about 200 new voices every day. Consider adding yours.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=198541255168&ref=mf
And let us keep throwing water on it.
That’s the spirit.
I wonder if some conservative Christians — individuals, groups an leaders — are reluctant to get very specific in their condemnation of matters like these because they might be percieved as “too pro-gay”?
Well there are two issues here.
1) The issue of homosexuality as an immoral act
2) How that act is being treated in a foreign country.
Some people – it seems – have mixed up the idea that if we say homosexuals deserve to be treated with dignity that we are saying it is not immoral. Personally, I’m not agsinst the law that “outlaws” homosexuality in Uganda as much as I am against the prescriptive punishment as a deterant to this law. I am against captial punishment in any nation, tribe or group. And killing someone for being or acting on their homosexuality solves nothing, addresses nothing in the human condition, and helps no one.
It is a sad fact, well-established by Human Rights Watch, that U.S. evangelicals have misused PEPFAR funds since early in this decade to support partnerships in Africa which then performed the dirty work of prosecuting and persecuting homosexual Africans while halting previous progress in reducing the prevalence of HIV/AIDS.
This campaign, with its misuse of U.S. taxpayers’ PEPFAR funds to violate human rights and worsen public health, are blatantly colonialist.
I am grateful that Warren Throckmorton has initiated this effort among conservative Christians, and I impressed that he has rounded up so many people — liberal and conservative, Christian or otherwise.
But it seems to me that this response by Rick Warren is precisely the sort of vague double-talk that has been used by others to deny responsibility and avoid taking a clear and emphatic stand in defense of human rights.
No law against homosexuality per se is justifiable under any non-religious grounds. Whether the punishment is 3 years, life imprisonment, or death, the result is the same: The suppression of free speech, family privacy, medical privacy, and religious freedom by those Americans who have imposed their values upon Africans with the help of billions of dollars, and who have encouraged Africa’s post-colonial despots to use homosexuality as a bogeyman to distract attention from Africa’s worsening problems.
Rick Warren’s statement reduces the support that Museveni and Ssempa enjoy, but only slightly. Without a call for public evangelical resistance to Museveni and Ssempa, and a sizable reduction in U.S. aid to Uganda, Rick’s statement is — unfortunately — rather toothless.
“Rick Warren’s statement reduces the support that Museveni and Ssempa enjoy, but only slightly. Without a call for public evangelical resistance to Museveni and Ssempa, and a sizable reduction in U.S. aid to Uganda, Rick’s statement is — unfortunately — rather toothless.” …. and spineless!!
Conservative Christians have to stay firm on gayness as sin. They have to be careful not to look weak on sin by speaking out for gays, or against the mistreatment of gays.
There are serious political and financial implications when conservatives take up what many might see as a “liberal or “gay” cause. You have walk the party line.
It must be very difficult to be a Conservative Christian. So many constraints — even when great injustce is being done to someone else.
Can you imagine what it would take for Focus On The Family to speak out against this bill?
I don’t think it should be easy to be any kind of Christian. Do you? The world is a hateful place. It hates Christ above all else.
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” – Mahatma Gandhi
It is not Christ the world hates. The world is a ‘hateful place’ because of our tribal rivalries based on our false gods. If we abandon the worship of Jesus and learned to follow the teaching of Jesus, perhaps the path would be less stony. The teachings of the Buddha have guided spiritual seekers since the 6th century BC; yet Buddha was never made into a god.
Richard,
Buddha never mentioned that he and the father were the same. Seems to be a crux in the abrahamic religions – some wait for the messiah, some believe the messiah has come, some believe that jesus was a prophet and nothing more.
Richard,
Besides this issue is about basic humanity to another. It is being covered in religion but I doubt it really has anything to do with religion.
“[S]ome believe that jesus was a prophet and nothing more.”
That is somewhat like saying that A. Lincoln was only a politician. What Jesus actually said of himself and what words have been put in his mouth have been under dispute for a long time. The Gospel of John was late, at a time when the followers of The Way needed to believe that the destruction of the Temple was not the destruction of their Hope. I have in the past few weeks begun an intensive study on the history and Christology of the fourth gospel and am led to the conviction that much of what we say in the Church is very misleading. Perhaps the whole problem IS ‘religion’ and our neurotic practices of manipulating and placating a ‘god’ of our own making that needs to be rethought.
Richard,
Then your intensive study should tell you that this argument has been going on a long time and will continue to go on. Leave it at that and stay focused on the humanity of gay people.
As well, your intensive study should tell you that no religion (that I know of) commits homoesexuals to prison or death.
“As well, your intensive study should tell you that no religion (that I know of) commits homoesexuals to prison or death.” Well, only if you exclude the Inquistion, most of western European history and Sharia Law. If you exclude the Abrahamic religions, perhaps you are right. However there are still many in Orthodox Judaism and Fundamentalist Christianity that hold the statue of Lev. 18:22 as valid. And as for Islalm, there are reports coming from those countries weekly on the execution of men who are even suspected of homosexual activity.
I tend to agree. I understand what Debbie is saying — that the world turns from the light of grace because it loves the darkness. But many of Jesus’s followers don’t help the situation much. Sadly, the world does not see them as ambassadors of HIs love.
Mary – Just to underscore the animus that Western ‘civilization’ has held against same-sex relations, most specifically between men. I offer two pieces of relatively modern history from what was once held as the most civilized nation in the world – England.
1) Oscar Wilde was arrested in April of 1895 for “gross indecency” under Section 11 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885. In British legislation of the time, this term implied homosexual acts not amounting to buggery, which was an offense under a separate statute. He was convicted on 25 May 1895 and served hard labour at Reading Prison until his release 19 May 1897.
2) Alan Turing, the mathematical genius who is considered by many to be the ‘Father of Modern Computing’, and who almost single-handedly broke the code of the Germany Intelligence forces during World War II, was also a homosexual. Turing’s homosexuality resulted in a criminal prosecution in 1952—homosexual acts were illegal in the United Kingdom at that time—and he accepted treatment with female hormones (chemical castration) as an alternative to prison. The grotesque changes to his body that resulted from this program of treatment drove him to commit suicide.
The acts that are being put in place may not effect persons of similar celebrity, but that makes them no less despicable and no less inhumane. If this is being done in the name of their ‘Christian faith’, then I want nothing to do with their ‘christ’.
“……..the most civilized and Christian nation…….”
Debbie,
Get off that cross! We need the wood!
Richard,
Lots of things are done in the name of God – it does not mean that it was the correct interpretation of the word.
The world hates hypocrites. And we are all hypocrites to some extent. Why can’t we extend eachother a little grace.
Be assured, Richard, “their” Christ is not “the” Christ or my Christ. You are guilty of painting Christendom with the same foul brush you accuse us of painting Gaydom with. Every group has its fringes. History has marched a long way since Wilde and Turing. That England in no way resembles today’s. Uganda is behaving like some lost island civilization.
“A great deal of what passes for current Christianity consists in denouncing other people’s vices and faults.” ~ Henry H. Williams
C.S. Lewis
That said…Allegations (by Mike Airhart at TWO) have been made on this posting about misuse of US funds should be substantiated…got anything Mike?
Randy Thomas, on Exodus’ blog, calls for Ssempa to renounce this bill:
Don should have been aware of it. He was forewarned and he surely knew of Scott Lively’s views. They ALL need to issue a strong, specific renunciation of this bill. An apology seems in order, too.
Don may not have been aware then, but he is NOW. And he can still confront Ssempa and this monstrous Bill. What’s the hold up for Don to do so?
And why hasn’t Alan Chambers come out? Why is he hiding? Shameful. Truly shameful. The entire Exodus board, including Don, should issue an apology, a joint statement they they all sign by name – and a press release specifically condemning this bill — not just blog entries.
They might not have been aware then. They surely are now. Time’s a-wasting here. They need to do it now. Not fair to call on Ssempa to denounce it if they won’t set a very clear and very public example.
From David Roberts, commenting on the Facebook group:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=198541255168&ref=mf
We can throw stones,
complain about them,
stumble on them,
climb over them,
or build with them.
William Arthur Ward
Here’s Randy Thomas’s headline on the Exodus Blog:
How about this one?
.Or this one?
LOL. I sent a follow-up email to Randy and Alan a few days ago and advised them that although Michael was currently pleased with the ‘official statement’, that it would only be a matter of days before he began demanding more. Silly me, I thought it would just be a formal statement and/or apology from Don that was demanded.
It will be fun to send them this “I told you so” update.
BTW, I realize it may not be much, but I noted that Alan joined Warren’s facebook group a day or so ago.
Yes, I am pleased with it — it is a good step. No, considering the gravity of this situation I don’t think it’s enough.
Go right ahead. Yuck it up Eddy. LOL all you want. Have fun. This is serious. And you are just plain sad.
Wow. Got me again Eddy. Boy are you a sharp one. So clever, you and your witty “LOL”..
Contrary to what you may think, I get no pleasure in making Exodus look bad. But you seem to get pleasure in some pretty depressing ways.
I any event, I am too busy to bicker with you. Better things to do. But, by all means, enjoy yourself.
BTW: I already sent them this “update”. And it wasn’t “I told you so”. It was “Please do more.”
Michael–
I have addressed the gravity of the situation with them but I’ve also warned them of your tendency to spin, to exaggerate and to demand. That is where my point of humor was directed; please don’t delude yourself or others into thinking that I’m laughing off this Ugandan crisis.
Glad to hear you are taking it seriously. Had me confused there for a moment with all the talk of “fun” and LOL.
Randy today called on Ssempa (by name) to clearly denounce this legislation. I asked him why Exodus Board members, particularly Don, should not do the same. Still waiting for his reply.
Back to work. Like I said, have fun Eddy. Fun is good.
Michael–
I was only cutting through your ‘spin’ for the benefit of those who get caught up in emotionally charged verbal rhetoric. Your point re ‘abomination’ and ‘putting to death’ was on target; trying to equate ‘broken’, ‘damaged’ and ‘sinful’ was not.
There IS an agenda and your constant yammering at those words is an evidence of it. Seems it would be pretty easy for words like ‘abomination’ and ‘putting to death’ to be classified as hate speech; by placing words like ‘broken’, ‘damaged’ and ‘sinful’ in the same context, you elevate them to that level as well. Perhaps it’s not an intentional agenda; perhaps you’ve just caught the vibe and don’t know it.
I may do it on other things, but on this issue, I do not think i have exagerated, spun or demanded. Pushing, yes. And isn’t it sad that Exodus seems to need pushing?
Even Warren has expressed frustration with them over this. Many people have, not just me.
Perhaps now, with Exodus issuing more public statements, with Randy and Alan joining the Facebook group — and even linking the group to the Exodus blog, there will be less need for that.
I am sure there is no need for that — or to “warn them of [my] tendency to spin, to exaggerate and to demand.”
By now, I am sure they know how terrifically annoying and persistent I can be on something that really matters.
I am saying that what we say about gayness here echoes everywhere. If we announce it to be any or all of those things, someone is going to listen.
Sometimes, people filled with fear or hate will listen. Sometimes, people with inhumane political agendas will listen.
Intentionally or not, those words and phrases can fuel the fire. The Americans who went to Uganda were used in this way. That’s why they need to speak out and make the true message of Christ clearly heard.
Michael,
With all your focus on Exodus – don’t you think they have heard you by now? Why do you think they are not responding? Could it be that they are prayfully considering a response? Could it be that the board agrees with the bill?
Your constant focus on that organization is resisting to see all the others with strength who are offering to speak out against it.
You really are hung up on them. They may just not do a damn thing. And who cares? It will only show their true colors.
Point well taken. What Exodus says and does from this point on will indeed show their true colors. If they are “prayfully considering a response”, I wil pray it comes sonner than later.
God, I hope so. The “why” part is because I feel a certain responsibility since I had something to do with the organization’s formation and mission and am very concerned about the direction it is going.
Frankly, I think they are embarrassed by their mistake and afraid they will look “too gay” if they do more.
NO. I am pretty sure they don’t. I think it’s embarrassment and fear.
Well, until Exodus makes a statement you nor I will kow for sure why they remained silent.
You left Exodus a long time ago. The leadership, goals and roles it plays in the church of gays and ex gays has changed. It does not belong to you anymore than it belongs to me.
It’s over.
No. I don’t think it’s over. I still have a voice and a heart for the original mission of Exodus (and I believe it is still their mission) — to reach out with Christ’s love to a group of people who believed God couldn’t love them.
There must be gays in Uganda who believe the same thing — right now. Their relgious and political leaders seem to want them dead or in prison. That’s why they need to hear from Christians in the USA. Consider it a care package.
As for Exodus’ official response, it is wonderful that Exodus’s President and Vice President have both joined the Facebook group. My sincere thanks to both of them for doing so.
Thanks, Alan and Randy, and God bless you.
Michael–
That was more than 30 years ago. Even if it were your grown child, you’d have developed a less smothering touch by now. Please consider that it’s long past time for you to let go of ANY responsibility whatsoever. Many, many years have passed.
Do past founders, presidents, CEO’s routinely contact organizations they’ve moved on from? Some may be solicited for advice, for mentoring, to serve as consultants…but I do believe it’s rare for them to offer unsolicited advice and direction.
Re that responsibility you feel as a ‘founder’. Please be reminded that there was ‘a wave’ going on. People were finding each other; a network was forming with or without that ‘about to hatch’ entity called EXODUS. I was doing street evangelism to gay areas in Dallas before I ever heard of the efforts in California. I was already acquainted with the likes of Perry Desmond and Greg Reid without the help of EXODUS. Without you, the birth of EXODUS may have been delayed 6 months to a year but, I am convinced that it would have been born…and that it wouldn’t have been that much different without your presence. IMHO, you really need to release that feeling of responsibility once and for all. It doesn’t serve you–or EXODUS–well at all.
Opinion noted.
No more bickering with you. It doesn’t serve anyone well.
Michael,
You may hold on to that if you like. May be you could consider the hundreds of people who have since been involved with Exodus, the DECADES you have been absent from it, and that your role is being over estimated?
Had you stayed with Exodus then it would be different. But your influence with an organization that you publicly denounce is limited. And your influence with those who are integrated with Exodus today is close to none.
Like others have mentioned. You may have been there at the beginning but there were many others there too and it is apparent that some group would have formed eventually because there is a need for such. That it has remained is not a statement about you but the efforts and desires of hundreds and thousands of others who benefit from the group. Else it would have disbanded and faded away a long time ago.
Mary: I do not over-estimate my role. I know I am only ONE voice.
And I am sure than many have benfitted from Exodus. I did.
I suppose I need to be reminded, from time to time, how insignificant and powerless I am. Pride and stubborness can be sin.
They can cause me to lose faith and focus.
Michael–
Thanks. I’ll appreciate that. I’ll continue to be my fact-checking, exaggeration monitoring, generalization spotting self but it will be nice to simply express my opinion on what’s been said without the bickering response.
Thanks to Exodus, another woman (two, actually) came into my group tonight. Hallelujah! Keep on doing your thing, Exodus.
Michael, do you not know that when a person rants incessantly, after a while he is just tuned out? How are your prayers going? If anything needs to be tuned up for us all, I imagine it would be those. Have you prayed for Exodus or Alan or Randy lately?
Awesome!
Where is Jesse Jackson, Al Shapton, Bill Clinton, Desmond Tutu, Oprah Winfrey, etc. ? I think they would be far more powerful than Exodus.
Every day. And I gave thanks that they are speaking out.
Ann–
I like your suggestions of Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and Desmond Tutu; my gut says that Bill Clinton and Oprah Winfrey would be immediately dismissed. Clinton’s status as former president of the US wouldn’t carry any real weight there as they seem to have little regard for our national values; I suspect his marital infidelity might discredit him as a voice also. And, Oprah…well, she’s Oprah…she’s a pretty vivid picture of the American mindset (which they disdain)… not sure she’d have any connecting power.
Eddy, you seem very adept in pointing out in me the very traits you seem to be unable to see in yourself. Takes two to bicker — and it is a waste of BOTH our time.
Beter things to do than squabble with you. Every time I do it, I kick myself.
It’s not the Exodus has power, but it does have the responsibility — and they are using it more and more. Good for them.
IMHO, we all have the responsibility to speak out about any kind of inustice – I am just wondering where all the people are who supposedly support gay rights and why Exodus is held to a higher standard than they are?
Ann: I don’t want to continue to harp on Exodus tonight — since I think they are stepping up. I want to express thanks tonight — especialy to Alan and Randy for joining the group.
I can always get back to the criticism tomorrow if it seems warranted. But I think Exodus is heading in the right direction today.
Many of them are on the Facebook group — along with many conservative Christians. Gay activists and Christian conservatives in a common cause.
Like Warren said, “RARE, but COOL!”
perhaps Ellen can make a statement on her show as well or Rosie on her blog.
Brad Pitt, Elton John, Charlize Theron – very loud gay rights supporters/activicts – have they spoken up? Brad Pitt stayed in Africa and two of his daughters were born there – Charlize Theron was born and raised in Africa – Madonna adopted two children from Africa – all of these people are high profile, gay activists who speak loudly about gay rights – where are they now?
Yes. Let’s email and call all of of those liberal, “pro-gay” celebs. They should speak up too.
But what we really need are Conservative Christian voices. Ugandan religious and political leaders might be more willing to listen to them. Where is Focus on the Family? Pat Robertson?
Sure. Two out-front lesbians. How do you think Ugandan leaders would take to that?
Michael,
The aforementioned individuals I suggested can bring awareness and have ties to Africa – I’m just curious as to the substance to which they speak – where is the back-up when it matters? If they can speak at the HRC, on radio, television, award events, etc. – why aren’t they speaking up now in America and bringing awareness to such atrocities in Uganda? I believe they could make a difference but they have been silent compared to how Conservative Christians have responded – ie, Debbie, Warren, Rick Warren, etc.
Forgot to mention Exodus – a conservative Christian organizaiton who has repsonded and made their views clear about this.
Where is Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton – two of the most outspoken ministers against human injustice – they never miss an opportunity – where is Jerimiah Wright? Perhaps those with ties to the HRC -where Barak Obama made all his promises – can contact these prominent human rights advocates with ties to ministry, Christianity and Africa and have them intervene. Barak Obama would be perfect – he professes Christianity, has ties to Africa, is a gay rights advocate, and leads the free world.
OK. I get the point. We are making quite a list. I will email all these people tomorrow if I can — and ask them to speak out. Will you join me in doing the same?
I really do not know why they have not. Just as with major “conservative” types, their silence is troubling.
Yes and no. Not completely clear and not as much as they could and should do. No press release. No statement on their website. Nothing from Don whose blunder added to this mess.
Maybe tomorrow?
Just sent a request to Ellen Degenes. How about you send one to Focus On The Family. Deal?
Michael,
I think someone like Wayne Besen could have an audience with all these people. He is very forthcoming about being in the public eye, has no problem voicing his opinion, has a high public profile that he seems to bask in, and is very confident when calling people out for what he perceives their injustices to the gay community are. He does not respond to my solicitions to engage in communication so perhaps you or someone else he respects would be better candidates to reach him. Wasn’t he also affiliated with the HRC? Human Rights Campaign? Just checked their web site and unless I am missing something there is no mention of the Ugandan activities – seems that Exodus is being asked to do something that a human rights organization, prominent in gay rights, has yet to do.
I will do one of each — first a liberal celeb or politician and then a conservative one. Just sent a request to FOTF. Let’s see who answers.
Great – thanks!
Michael,
Whoever will make a difference in bringing public awareness and approach this in a pro-active way and change hearts and save lives is all that matters. The people I mentioned seem to be the most effusive about human rights and gay rights in particular, most profess Christianity, and many have ties to Africa – one even leads the free world and managed to get elected president because of his charisma – perhaps he can use some of that in Uganda and let them know this an unacceptable method of governing its’ people.
Well, if you’re making lists… I wanted to see what motivated those Americans who joined the Facebook supporters of the bill. Most all would seem to identify as Christian, some going to Christian schools (including Grove City). A few are Facebook friends with Ssempa. Other few were involved in ministries/missions to Uganda or other places. One – who has a website for his ministry, http://www.hhiminc.org – stated that, “I wish America had the guts to speak out against this tragic sin…..”
.
Who do you think Ugandans would rather listen to? I’m betting them. Or are we only talking about the 10% or less who are Pentacostal?
I am sure Obama will speak out. I have already emailed him. I expect that many people have. I don’t think the US government will stand by and not speak out. Getting folks who are in favor of gay rights to step up and speak out is EASY.
But, I am afraid that those who are “most effusive” about gay rights will be dismissed as pro-gay, light-on-sin “activists”. As they often are here when they speak out about injustice to gays.
We need major, well-known, conservative Christian leaders to speak to their Conservative Christian brethren there. Perhaps they will listen to people who agree with them that homosexuality is an abomination — but that this is not the way to deal with it.
The USA and France are speaking out. http://www.advocate.com/article.aspx?id=101479
I think there is plenty of action on “our side.” There has been consistently for four years at this site…we have rallied conservative Christians to rethink their simplistic understanding of SSA; we have encouraged Exodus to rethink the term Ex-gay. We have devoted ourselves to a reasoned view of the research.
At some point one wonders if there will be reciprocation (although it is not necessary).
More and more it seems like a one way conversation and that we are just being manipulated by outrage and ever escalating demands…demands that are never levied toward TWO, GLSEN, XGW or BTB.
Re David’s observation:
Can anybody say ‘AMEN’?!
AMEN!!!!
I am talking about the need for Conservative Christians (BIG NAMES) to come forward on THIS issue. I appreciate what conservative Christians have done on this blog.
.Why? Because, you never have to push them to stand up for basic human rights. They are not worried about looking “pro-gay” if they do.
Michael – I believe the comparable response would be those groups standing up for religious rights or against religious persecution around the world.
I intend to return to the issue of Kevin Jennings and religious liberty. However, I believe the Ugandan situation is more urgent…
Being aware that ‘conservative Christians’ and their viewpoints are regularly mocked, disparaged and criticized by the gay community (oh yes, always with good reason and justifiably)…those prominent ‘conservative Christians’ may be reluctant to lend their voices to a cause that is unwilling to discuss any compromise.
No compromise on criminilizing homosexuality. No compromise on this Bill.
The “cause” here is basic human rights. It would be truly sad if conservative Christians are reluctant lend their voices to THAT cause — for whatever reason.
As usual, very, very well said – thank you David.
AMEN!!!!!
Many Christians are speaking out for this cause — and this is a wonderful thing. Here is a recent example from Facebook:
We need major Conservative Christian leaders and Conservative Christian organizations to express similar feelings on this. I am hopeful that they will do what Exodus has done recently.
I believe that if a country was demanding that ex-gays or post-gays go to prison for life and that those who know them and don’t report them should also be behind bars, that all of the pro-gay organizations mentioned above would speak out clearly and quickly. don’t you?
The ’cause’ here goes beyond basic human rights. Portions of this bill address issues that are even criminalized here in the US. The penalties differ sharply but the sexual exploitation of minors (whether physically or via pornographic imagery) are not ‘basic human rights’. That’s just one example of where discussion of compromise would be valid and justified.
Here in the US we have protected freedom of speech and yet we also have laws saying what things are criminal. It’s another area of compromise that could be discussed.
But, instead, we have ‘a one way conversation’ and ‘are just being manipulated by outrage and ever escalating demands’. And, talk of ‘compromise’ isn’t even considered but is instead countered by over-simplifications like “the cause here is basic human rights”.
Excellent commentrary here, on why everyone should be worried about this bill: http://www.monitor.co.ug/artman/publish/opinions/Why_anti-gay_Bill_should_worry_us_93987.shtml
Michael,
When it comes to human rights, especially life and death situaitons, labels really don’t matter – everyone must unite. While this is going on in Uganda, young women are having their gentitals mutilated in parts of Africa, women are being raped and killed daily in other parts of Africa, harsh punishment is inflicted if an arm slips out from under a burka – the injustices go on and on and on and on. I am always intrigued by what injustice merits the attention of the world or a single indifidual – so much seems to be for self interest rather than doing what is right, I do not respond positively, nor do most, to coercion. I am not interested in the tactics that the gay advocates use to intimidate and bully. That is why I suggest they reach out to the people who are high in government and ministry who, at least publicly, have shown support and endorsement. Just look at how Exodus and others who have opposing perspectives have been treated by the gay community – have you forgotton the letters by Wayne, Timothy, Reagan, etc., – I haven’t.
The groups mentioned above are:
Call me a cynic but ‘No’. I believe there might be discussion…some concern…but I don’t envision speaking out clearly or quickly.
Let’s go a step further into the imagined reasoning for their imprisonment. It would likely be that they are deluded into rejecting their inborn sexuality. What clear and quick defense of these ‘delusionals’ would be offered? Would XGW recant statements it’s made in the past suggesting that these people are misguided, self-deluded, church-deluded? If they didn’t recant on the ‘delusional’ statements, what would they suggest as an ‘appropriate’ response to these delusionals? Or would ‘being delusional’ be termed a basic human right?
I suppose someone could start a Facebbok group called:
“Speak Out For Compromise On Uganda’s Anti-Homosexuality Bill 2009.”
You are a cynic. And mistaken.