<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: In Quiet Desperation: Rebuttal to Byrd, Cox &amp; Robinson</title>
	<atom:link href="http://wthrockmorton.com/2009/09/01/in-quiet-desperation-rebuttal-to-byrd-cox-robinson/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2009/09/01/in-quiet-desperation-rebuttal-to-byrd-cox-robinson/</link>
	<description>A College Psychology Professor&#039;s Observations About Public Policy, Mental Health, Sexual Identity, and Religious Issues</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 04:09:59 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Spontaneous change compared to therapeutically mediated change &#8212; Warren Throckmorton</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2009/09/01/in-quiet-desperation-rebuttal-to-byrd-cox-robinson/comment-page-1/#comment-210090</link>
		<dc:creator>Spontaneous change compared to therapeutically mediated change &#8212; Warren Throckmorton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 21:47:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=4834#comment-210090</guid>
		<description>[...] did the brief series of posts on Dean Byrd&#8217;s review of LDS book, In Quiet Desperation (here, here and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] did the brief series of posts on Dean Byrd&#8217;s review of LDS book, In Quiet Desperation (here, here and [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ty Mansfield</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2009/09/01/in-quiet-desperation-rebuttal-to-byrd-cox-robinson/comment-page-1/#comment-207212</link>
		<dc:creator>Ty Mansfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 03:07:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=4834#comment-207212</guid>
		<description>I think you&#039;re right, Warren. In fact, that&#039;s how I used to perceive it, and it was especially depressing when i felt like I was doing all I knew how to do with no results. I had a constant feeling that I was somehow failing God. It wasn&#039;t until I had some pretty strong spiritual experiences that changed my perspective that my understanding began to shift. I&#039;m sure there are many Latter-day Saints who still fall into that camp, and I know how hard that can be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;re right, Warren. In fact, that&#8217;s how I used to perceive it, and it was especially depressing when i felt like I was doing all I knew how to do with no results. I had a constant feeling that I was somehow failing God. It wasn&#8217;t until I had some pretty strong spiritual experiences that changed my perspective that my understanding began to shift. I&#8217;m sure there are many Latter-day Saints who still fall into that camp, and I know how hard that can be.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ann</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2009/09/01/in-quiet-desperation-rebuttal-to-byrd-cox-robinson/comment-page-1/#comment-207143</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 17:03:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=4834#comment-207143</guid>
		<description>I just looked at the LDS website - it seems that when all is said and done, that each religion has a certain set of beliefs that can either be accepted as true or not.  Fortunately or unfortunately, each set of beliefs seem to be taught as the only way one can achieve holiness, etc.  My personal belief is that we were all made by and for God&#039;s purposes - we ultimately, as adults, living in America, choose what religion and beliefs we want to believe and practice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just looked at the LDS website &#8211; it seems that when all is said and done, that each religion has a certain set of beliefs that can either be accepted as true or not.  Fortunately or unfortunately, each set of beliefs seem to be taught as the only way one can achieve holiness, etc.  My personal belief is that we were all made by and for God&#8217;s purposes &#8211; we ultimately, as adults, living in America, choose what religion and beliefs we want to believe and practice.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Warren</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2009/09/01/in-quiet-desperation-rebuttal-to-byrd-cox-robinson/comment-page-1/#comment-207058</link>
		<dc:creator>Warren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 03:44:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=4834#comment-207058</guid>
		<description>Ty - You don&#039;t feel like more is at stake but I wonder if folks who believe as Dean Byrd does would see it that way. I get the impression that there are different slants on what being a faithful LDS adherent means in the present. 

I appreciate those contributing who know more about it. Thanks...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ty &#8211; You don&#8217;t feel like more is at stake but I wonder if folks who believe as Dean Byrd does would see it that way. I get the impression that there are different slants on what being a faithful LDS adherent means in the present. </p>
<p>I appreciate those contributing who know more about it. Thanks&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ty Mansfield</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2009/09/01/in-quiet-desperation-rebuttal-to-byrd-cox-robinson/comment-page-1/#comment-207054</link>
		<dc:creator>Ty Mansfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 03:31:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=4834#comment-207054</guid>
		<description>Warren, thanks for what seems like a very fair treatment of the issues here. I would agree that the tensions here likely parallel to the differences between the change and congruence paradigms you discuss, though the term &#039;congruence&#039; is something that is new to me in my reading of your work.

To address questions around the role LDS theology of family and eternal relationships plays in all this, certainly, marriage is central to a Latter-day Saint cosmology of eternal progression, but also central is the idea that the growth and progression we experience in Jesus Christ will continue long after our time in this world. Joseph Smith taught, &quot;Those who have died in Jesus Christ may expect to enter into all that fruition of joy when they come forth, which they possessed or anticipated here... All your losses will be made up to you in the resurrection, provided you continue faithful. By the vision of the Almighty I have seen it.&quot;

So, if someone doesn&#039;t ever get to a place where they feel like heterosexual marriage is a healthy and positive option in their mortal life, there is the assurance in Christ that as long as they stay true to their covenants (among which is the requirement of no sexual activity outside heterosexual marriage) and seek to continue growing in His grace, there is the assurance that they will eventually get to a place, even if beyond this life, where the promises and blessings regarding eternal marriage will happen beyond this life. 

Theologically, even if someone identified as gay but were committed to the behavioral standards of the Church, and desired to continue growing spiritually and otherwise, they can have the expectation that there will a full transformation in this life or the next that would enable them to have a rich and fulfilling heterosexual marriage. 

I personally don&#039;t feel like I have any more at stake than anyone else, though the theology and culture of Mormonism are so family-focused that it can be either motivating or discouraging, depending on where someone is at in their circumstances and growth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Warren, thanks for what seems like a very fair treatment of the issues here. I would agree that the tensions here likely parallel to the differences between the change and congruence paradigms you discuss, though the term &#8216;congruence&#8217; is something that is new to me in my reading of your work.</p>
<p>To address questions around the role LDS theology of family and eternal relationships plays in all this, certainly, marriage is central to a Latter-day Saint cosmology of eternal progression, but also central is the idea that the growth and progression we experience in Jesus Christ will continue long after our time in this world. Joseph Smith taught, &#8220;Those who have died in Jesus Christ may expect to enter into all that fruition of joy when they come forth, which they possessed or anticipated here&#8230; All your losses will be made up to you in the resurrection, provided you continue faithful. By the vision of the Almighty I have seen it.&#8221;</p>
<p>So, if someone doesn&#8217;t ever get to a place where they feel like heterosexual marriage is a healthy and positive option in their mortal life, there is the assurance in Christ that as long as they stay true to their covenants (among which is the requirement of no sexual activity outside heterosexual marriage) and seek to continue growing in His grace, there is the assurance that they will eventually get to a place, even if beyond this life, where the promises and blessings regarding eternal marriage will happen beyond this life. </p>
<p>Theologically, even if someone identified as gay but were committed to the behavioral standards of the Church, and desired to continue growing spiritually and otherwise, they can have the expectation that there will a full transformation in this life or the next that would enable them to have a rich and fulfilling heterosexual marriage. </p>
<p>I personally don&#8217;t feel like I have any more at stake than anyone else, though the theology and culture of Mormonism are so family-focused that it can be either motivating or discouraging, depending on where someone is at in their circumstances and growth.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steven B</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2009/09/01/in-quiet-desperation-rebuttal-to-byrd-cox-robinson/comment-page-1/#comment-207051</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 02:57:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=4834#comment-207051</guid>
		<description>The LDS essentially believe in a universal salvation. All but a handful will ultimately acknowledge Jesus as Lord and be saved in a kingdom of glory through his grace. But those who are judged the most faithful and worthy may receive a reward of &quot;exaltation&quot; in the highest of the kingdoms of glory. The only catch is that these valiant souls are only exalted as families, not as individuals. There is a concept of eternal fecundity, not very fleshed out in the LDS scriptures, but due to the Mormon&#039;s very anthropomorphic concept of deity necessarily assumes that such requires a male and female.

Given that this concept of &quot;ultimate&quot; salvation is all wrapped up in marriage and family it follows that those who are not attracted to the opposite sex find themselves especially out of place among the Latter-day Saints. It is one thing to be considered a sinner for being gay, but if you are Mormon and gay, you are a misfit socially in such a family oriented church and are effectively precluded from the ultimate eternal happiness, through no fault of your own.

It was in this religious context and in the context of the LDS participation in California&#039;s Prop 22 campaign that Stuart Matis took his own life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The LDS essentially believe in a universal salvation. All but a handful will ultimately acknowledge Jesus as Lord and be saved in a kingdom of glory through his grace. But those who are judged the most faithful and worthy may receive a reward of &#8220;exaltation&#8221; in the highest of the kingdoms of glory. The only catch is that these valiant souls are only exalted as families, not as individuals. There is a concept of eternal fecundity, not very fleshed out in the LDS scriptures, but due to the Mormon&#8217;s very anthropomorphic concept of deity necessarily assumes that such requires a male and female.</p>
<p>Given that this concept of &#8220;ultimate&#8221; salvation is all wrapped up in marriage and family it follows that those who are not attracted to the opposite sex find themselves especially out of place among the Latter-day Saints. It is one thing to be considered a sinner for being gay, but if you are Mormon and gay, you are a misfit socially in such a family oriented church and are effectively precluded from the ultimate eternal happiness, through no fault of your own.</p>
<p>It was in this religious context and in the context of the LDS participation in California&#8217;s Prop 22 campaign that Stuart Matis took his own life.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Lynn David</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2009/09/01/in-quiet-desperation-rebuttal-to-byrd-cox-robinson/comment-page-1/#comment-207035</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynn David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 00:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=4834#comment-207035</guid>
		<description>Well... from my work in family history [I&#039;ve even volunteered at a Mormon stake library] I know that having a family, descendants is all important in LDS religious life.  I believe a man cannot be a priest unless married.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well&#8230; from my work in family history [I've even volunteered at a Mormon stake library] I know that having a family, descendants is all important in LDS religious life.  I believe a man cannot be a priest unless married.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Warren</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2009/09/01/in-quiet-desperation-rebuttal-to-byrd-cox-robinson/comment-page-1/#comment-207016</link>
		<dc:creator>Warren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 20:39:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=4834#comment-207016</guid>
		<description>Timothy - That may indeed be correct. I hope any LDS readers will confirm or correct. My father was raised reorganized Mormon and said something similar. So more is at stake for them perhaps. This could be similar to those of holiness persuasion in Christianity who perhaps believe being gay eliminates eternal life. I am not sure how to study this but I am beginning to wonder if those who favor the change paradigm believe change is necessary for religious reasons. NARTH may be a group of people who by and large believe this for various religious reasons (LDS, Protestant, Catholic and psychoanalytic).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timothy &#8211; That may indeed be correct. I hope any LDS readers will confirm or correct. My father was raised reorganized Mormon and said something similar. So more is at stake for them perhaps. This could be similar to those of holiness persuasion in Christianity who perhaps believe being gay eliminates eternal life. I am not sure how to study this but I am beginning to wonder if those who favor the change paradigm believe change is necessary for religious reasons. NARTH may be a group of people who by and large believe this for various religious reasons (LDS, Protestant, Catholic and psychoanalytic).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2009/09/01/in-quiet-desperation-rebuttal-to-byrd-cox-robinson/comment-page-1/#comment-207015</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 20:39:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=4834#comment-207015</guid>
		<description>We can disagree and love each other as Christ would, but we cannot recreate God in our own image, or attempt to without suffering the consequences.

Amen.

This reminds me of another of my favorite quotes from one of Anne Lamott&#039;s inspirational books:

&lt;blockquote&gt;You can safely assume that you&#039;ve created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Far too often we all try and recreate God to agree with us.  We &lt;strong&gt;know &lt;/strong&gt;what the scripture says and &lt;strong&gt;exactly &lt;/strong&gt;what it means because &lt;strong&gt;God Said It and I Believe It&lt;/strong&gt;.  

But most of the time we really have that backwards.  We believe it and then we run to find scripture which proves that God agrees with us.  And everyone else who is doing exactly the same thing are just &quot;twisting scripture&quot; and justifying their own sin and bias.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We can disagree and love each other as Christ would, but we cannot recreate God in our own image, or attempt to without suffering the consequences.</p>
<p>Amen.</p>
<p>This reminds me of another of my favorite quotes from one of Anne Lamott&#8217;s inspirational books:</p>
<blockquote><p>You can safely assume that you&#8217;ve created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.</p></blockquote>
<p>Far too often we all try and recreate God to agree with us.  We <strong>know </strong>what the scripture says and <strong>exactly </strong>what it means because <strong>God Said It and I Believe It</strong>.  </p>
<p>But most of the time we really have that backwards.  We believe it and then we run to find scripture which proves that God agrees with us.  And everyone else who is doing exactly the same thing are just &#8220;twisting scripture&#8221; and justifying their own sin and bias.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2009/09/01/in-quiet-desperation-rebuttal-to-byrd-cox-robinson/comment-page-1/#comment-207014</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 20:34:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=4834#comment-207014</guid>
		<description>Warren

&lt;blockquote&gt;Somehow, living in accord with LDS beliefs is insufficient, one must change one’s attractions to demonstrate progression in the faith.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;m not particularly strong in LDS theology, but I think that perhaps Mormons may have a stronger basis for insisting on reorientation.

If I understand correctly, a Mormon can only reach the highest level in the Celestial Kingdom and become a god of another planet if the are in heterosexual marriage.  Celibate persons of any orientation will always be a lesser being because after death they cannot have spirit children to populate the new world.  

 (Sorry LDS folk if I got that less than fully accurate)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Warren</p>
<blockquote><p>Somehow, living in accord with LDS beliefs is insufficient, one must change one’s attractions to demonstrate progression in the faith.</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m not particularly strong in LDS theology, but I think that perhaps Mormons may have a stronger basis for insisting on reorientation.</p>
<p>If I understand correctly, a Mormon can only reach the highest level in the Celestial Kingdom and become a god of another planet if the are in heterosexual marriage.  Celibate persons of any orientation will always be a lesser being because after death they cannot have spirit children to populate the new world.  </p>
<p> (Sorry LDS folk if I got that less than fully accurate)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

