The Associated Press reports 1000 people attended a rally supporting Sally Kern in Oklahoma City today.
Concerned Women for America say the turnout was more like 2000.
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Michael, the placement of those italics doesn’t speak well of your trust in what Jay is saying about himself. I think I understand where you are coming from, and I generally agree, but the fact that some arrive at such a decision independently shouldn’t detract from the larger number that are affected by external prejudice and beliefs (and vice versa).
Jay said:
I thought that’s what I said
Of course, Michael, since I live in a country where one can practice Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, etc…. of course my culture influenced me and I chose Christianity. And….?
Some people really have done the “embrace your gay” thing. I did.
And sometimes it just doesn’t fit anymore. It doesn’t fit anymore – afterwards I became a christian.
But I’m sure you have me all figured out and have all the answers about me that I will ever need. Please – give me your number so I don’t have live for myself anymore and I can just go to you for everything. How does that sound?
It’s just that some people buy into free agency and some don’t don’t. Although we are all influenced by things around us and no one is “free” from that – diminishing people on such a broad scope the way you do sort begs the question –
Do you think your culture influenced you to believe what you believe about being gay?
Or should I say to you – you deliberately made a choice to follow your heart.
Personally to me – your story sounds like a lot of struggle for you – always being pulled by someone else.
Mary. Please try to understand. I am not trying to tell you what you should believe or how you should feel. Also, I am not trying to tell you how to live your life — nor would I want to. I am just stating what I happen to believe. I respect your right to feel, believe and live differently — and would fight for your right to all three,.
I was just trying to point out that none of us can claim that we are completely free of culture influences. I acknowledge that Jay experienced his choices as relatively independent of them.
But can any us us claim to be completely free of cultural messages? I don’t think so — anymore than it would be possible for a fish to swim in water and not get wet. It all impacts us to some degree or another. We all get wet..
With regards to your lives, I know you are being honest about it. I completely believe that both you and Jay are telling the TRUTH about your experience. That’s all any of us can do. If you say that your decisions were made relatively independent of cultural influences — I believe it.
But I don’t I will ever believe that anyone, inlcuding myself, can ever be completelty free of them. That’s all.
But you can’t claim that my leaving the gay life behind was influenced by culture – dare I say – you know and have read here the tremendous presure it is for people who are gay to insist that once gay – always gay. So- your influence argument for me – doesn’t hold water on this issue. (waiting for backlash )
Now – I like tacos, japenese art, l. hughes (poetry), etc… all things that of course have been influenced by upbringing and exposure. The gay culture in America is very different than in other countries – and it’s had it’s effect on many people – some people have experienced gay sex, thoughts etc… that may not have in another place or time. I wonder then – by your own argument – how many gays – are really all that gay.
Michael,
Why don’t you ever try to understand. You make the comment you made with the bent that you have and what did you expect? Now you’re back tracking? Only because you see how it hurts the “born gay” foundation?
We have all heard your story – and up until just about now – you have been adamant that gay is not “culture” and that religion is???
Mary and Jay: I have really thought about my stubborness. I think I know why I am having such trouble with this! I just realized why the idea of “complete (or relative() independence from cultural influences” is so hard to wrap my head around.
I’M OLD!!!
I grew up in a culture where there were NO positive messages about being gay. Back then, being gay was still a mental illness. There were no gay pride celebrations or gay community service centers. No gay-positive churches or sermons. No gay celebs on TV. No interviews with famous or successful gay people. Only “shameful” people in silhouette — no faces. No one proud to be gay.
No Ellen Degeneres. No Elton John. No Greg Louganis. Only “mental cases” getting eltro-shock therapy and sinners being thrown out of chruches. There were no gay-postive magazines. No gay cable channels. No Will and Grace.
There were no gay-postive films or books. The only books I could find were kept in a locked case at the public library under “abnormal psychology”. The were no support groups for Christians struggling with this issue — so I helped to start two.
Back then, you could be fired — just for being gay. There were no laws that said you couldn’t.. In many states, homosexual contact, even between consenting adults, was a criminal offense.
So that was the “water” I swam in. Today, thank God, young gay people can hear BOTH sides of this issue — and carefully consider all the pros and cons for themselves. They can find support for whatever decision they make.
Back then, it was only “con”. So I understand why it might be easier to think through — and separate out — the cultural influencs today than it was half a cenury ago. I am sorry I have assumed that my own experience of being absolutely surrounded by negative cultural messages was true for all. I guess times really have changed.
Society is not static. Even today’s lesbians are different than when I was young. And there are “lesbians” for the moment, too. Alot has changed. Kids and young adults make more choices about and have more conversations about sexuality. Very different world.
Michael,
Do you ever consider the gay youth organizations – multitudes out there? Why do gays harp on the idea that a ministry or therapist would have a youth group for those who struggle with same sex attraction (but have relgious convictions to not go that route) and then yet, provide the very same for gay or “questioning youth? When it is gay sponsored they seem not to care but when it is chruch sponsored – why all the flags come up and the name calling and “concern” for youth seems to appear everywhere in interviews, writings, etc… with gay people ????
Doesn’t that sound like a double standard?
Yes. I think it does. I am for options — as long as they are truthful and loving.
Michael Bussee said:
In the vast majority of states, this has not changed (including mine).
That’s a bit over stated but really Mary, can you not understand why GLBT’s would be leery of how the Church is going to deal with those who are perplexed with their homosexuality? Have you not seen enough to justify that concern? In spite of the previous exchange on this, the Church and/or scripture is used in the vast majority of anti-gay efforts. That’s not a double standard, it’s just reality and experience.
The Church has a long way to go before it can truly be trusted in these matters, and quite frankly atone for the miserable way they have been handled to date. There is some positive work here and there, but one would have to be naive or irresponsible not watch out for more damage to be done.
David,
Now take everything you said and reverse the situation. You see your perspective. They see their perspective. You think they are wrong. They think you are wrong. You think they are immoral and treat youth unethically. They think they same about gay youth groups. Do you see where I’m going with this?
Argue all you want – it is a double standard.
How does anything you just said describe a double standard? Never mind, this is pointless and I just don’t have the time. Sing a round of “Kum By Ya” on me.
Well, you took the time to say you don’t get it and don’t understand. Guess what – neither do they.
(Humming begins)
Someone’s prayin’ m’Lord – Kumbaya
Someone’s prayin’ m’Lord – Kumbaya
Someone’s prayin’ m’Lord – Kumbaya
Oh, Lord, Kumbaya
I heard singing and came running.
The youth groups teach the kids alot of things that aren’t true about being gay. They also teach kids all the reasons why gays should be denied many of the rights that you, Mary, support for gays. In other words….there’s a great deal more than loving them in Jesus and helping them find their way within their struggle going on there. They pour a great deal of guilt on the kid for having same sex attraction and they tend to perpetuate the hate the kid already has for him/herself because they are different from “normal”.
Now…I’m not exactly sure what goes on in the pro-gay groups, but I’m sure they don’t spend time working to deny the rights of others or presenting them with a bunch of research about how straight people are all living like the devil and headed straight for hell. I’m sure they tell them that being gay is okay, and I know that’s not okay with you and others in the ex-gay movement. But, I do think (as Jay so beautifully presents as example for us) that in the end, the kid has to work all of this out and if he/she is a Christian, he/she may indeed come to the conclusions that Jay and others have. Or maybe not. But…it’s up to the kid.
I know that good things happen in both groups. I know that bad things happen in both groups. But….I know for sure that in many of the ex-gay groups use alot of false pretenses to convince the kids to try being ex-gay and to even convince them that they can someday marry an have children of their own. And maybe they can. But….yikes!….the thought of bringing all of that thinking into their lives at that particular point……well…..we all know the rest of that tale much of the time.
This is why you hear so many pro-gay advocates arguing they way they do against the ex-gay youth camp. It would be one thing if they merely loved them along their way and taught them from scripture…..but they do a great deal more than that.
I’m headed to school so I won’t be able to talk more on this today.
What makes this country so great is that all are allowed to promote their ideologies. Sally Kern, church youth groups, gay pride organizations, etc. etc. I see no point in arguing about it since it will happen and in fact cannot be stopped.
Sally Kern will relatively soon face a kind of jury in the voters of her district. I suspect her career will be shortened although not knowing her district, I cannot say for sure. What is disappointing to me is that her brothers and sisters in the faith did not take her aside and school her in the book of James. Having said that, I suppose that I am being judgmental of her methods and, if she really believes homosexuality is a bigger threat than terrorism, that belief. I will own that. I believe she was wrong to say homosexuality is a bigger threat than terrorism and that it is the “death knell” of the nation. I believe her peers should have explained to her that moral opposition to homosexuality may be expressed but she went too far and offended homosexuals and people who are fighting terrorism on the ground. Instead they lauded her and threw her a party. I remain sad and perplexed.
I read Pam’s post after I wrote mine. I agree with Pam about what youth groups teach regarding homosexuality. I think some of my greatest frustration with Evangelical groups is this poor use of research and willingness to further stereotypes and misinformation in the service of bolstering Evangelical beliefs about sexuality. I do not fault the youth leaders on the ground too much but rather the groups who put out the material.
Warren said: “She went too far and offended homosexuals and people who are fighting terrorism on the ground.”
I think it needs to be said that some of those who are bravely fighting “terrorism on the ground” are gay — police officers, soldiers, etc.
Mary: I might support your suggestion of a “a ministry, therapist or youth group for those who struggle with same sex attraction (but have relgious convictions to not go that route)” — IF we could find one that::
(1) would not tell these kids that they are sick, disordered or diseased, (2) would not tell them that their parents must have been abusive, neglectful moral failures and (3) would not threaten kids with visions of Hell fire if these kids decided not to go the “ex-gay” route and (4) would base their work on sound scientific and ethical prinicples. Thiose are some pretty big “ifs”! Any suggestions as to where we might find such people?
Warren says he is “sad and perplexed” by the non-repsonse of Christians to Sally Kern’s inflammatory and offensive rhetoric. Apparently, EXODUS really likes her. Here’s a pic:
http://www.firststone.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=283&Itemid=195
I appreciate you speaking out Warren, but I would take you more seriously if you weren’t making yourself available to be quoted by those very organizations so often. My primary exposure to you has been through Focus on the Family – an organization that is grossly dishonest and blatantly misuses research for their political agenda. If you are bothered by evangelical groups who misuse research why do you make yourself available to them? Shouldn’t rather confront them in Christian love over their gross immorality?
Michael – I agree and have no answers for you.
Pam – Like youth groups everywhere – there a place to hook up!! Remember when you were young and your hormones where whirling! LOL!!
And really – I don’t endorse either youth groups at present because they are both extrmeme in what they propagandize. One is unguided sexuality all together and teaches things I don’t agree with and another is so repressed and teaches things I don’t agree with. Paved with good intentions and both well on their way to other places. I think both are unrealistic. However if my child (had I one) was so inclined, I’d prefer they attended a gay straight youth alliance for a broader perspective and they could me at my house – with parental approval.
But either way – it is a double standard – one kettle (you choose) calls the other(you choose) pot black.
oops – they are
Nick: I think that good people sometimes continue to associate with questionable folks or organizations because they don’t want to appear to be “soft” on homosexuality.
For example, some Christians would never participate in a gay-sponsored event (Day of Silence) or officiate at the funeral of a gay man — for fear that others might assume they support the dreaded “gay agenda”. Warren is much, much better about his than some, but even he does not have a spotless record. Sorry Warren.
Warren,
I remain sad and perplexed.
Please forgive me, but these are the same sort of actions we see ALL THE TIME from conservative Christians. Why you are suddenly sad and perplexed perplexes me!
Mary,
I’m not sure what “groups” you are talking about, but from my experience, the Gay Straight alliances that are present in nearly all schools now have been incredibly beneficial for gay kids – NOT as hookups, but as a resource – a place to go for support. You can use the kids-have-runaway-hormones theory for just about ANY group that meets on school grounds – should we ban band?
Jayhuck,
I’m pretty sure Dr. T doesn’t like being lumped in with conservative evangilical Christians like Sally Kern any more than you enjoy being lumped in with the connotation of “gay lifestyle” that does apply to some gay folks.
The very presence of this blog, this discussion, and his attempts and succeses at befriending those with whom he disagrees are evidence that Dr. T, while you may disagree with him in many ways, is not a “typical” conservative evangelical christian. The fact that he’s gone on record rebuking Sally Kern separates him in and of itself.
It’s not right for you to do to him the very thing that gets done to you.
I think I understand where you are coming from. You want more. You want him to change some of his core beliefs about gay folks. That’s probably not going to happen, and we all need to learn to live in peace in the meantime.
If the man says he’s “sad and perplexed” I believe him.
If you say you are gay and celibate…I believe you.
Ya know?
Jayhuck,
Please read carefully.
1. I did not say to ban anything. I said I don’t endorse either.
2. Yes, I think all youth groups are filled with hormones – that’s life!
Please for the upteenth time – stop inserting your own stuff into what I am writing.
Thanks Pam, I was a little surprised to see that from jayhuck.
I think in fairness he might think I was sad and perplexed at what she said. While that is true, I am aware that other Evangelicals feel that way.
What I specifically still have a hard time understanding is the silence from prominent Evangelicals and the approval of others. Not only are many throwing her parties but they are twisting the issue to make it appear that her opponents object to her rights to free speech. What a red herring.
Jayhuck asked “Should we ban band?” Why would we want to do that? At my high school, most of the band kids were straight — OK maybe not the fflute players… Choir was a different story — especially the tenors and altos.
Pam,
I don’t think Dr. T IS like other many other conservative Christians – I wasn’t questioning that. You are absolutely right that the way he conducts his blog and allows for differing viewpoints to be expressed is absolutely evidence of that – I’ve thanked him many times off-line for these things. I’m just surprised that he was perplexed when those kinds of things happen so often.
Mary,
Misinterpreting someone doesn’t always involve them inserting things into what they said. As always, I appreciate your clarification
Mary,
Let’s try this again – sigh – not only can I not read, I can’t write apparently
Misinterpreting what another person writes doesn’t always involve a person inserting their “own stuff” into another person’s writings. And for the upteenth time I appreciate your clarification
For the record, I wasn’t saying that you said we should ban anything – that was what I can only call my poor attempt at hyperbole.
Surprised to see what? He didn’t say you were part of this or that group, he said he couldn’t understand why you would be surprised that so many conservative Christian groups would embrace Kern’s comments. Frankly, I had the same thought. I’m deeply saddened by it, and I guess I was a bit surprised at first, but honestly, this is par for the course. To be perplexed by it implies that we normally hear something else.
I think you jumped the gun a bit Pam, stop picking up my bad habits.
Well….I do get what you guys mean….and I did misread the intent….but….I still think the fact that Sally Kern is getting lauded for this is shocking. And I’m willing to admit that it’s probably my straight bias that makes it seem that way to me….but…hey…that’s the only one I’ve got! (lol)
As usual, I get so comfortable assuming everyone knows that I have good intentions….blah blah blah….
I wonder if we’ve exhausted this thread yet? I personally think this horse died when we carelessly and callously started beating him way up the line there! (hee hee!)
as for picking up your bad habits….well…..you know “he who will not be named” called me out months ago for letting all this bad company corrupt my good morals! lol
David, Pam and Warren –
I am afraid that maybe my words could have done with a bit more explanation. In retrospect, they do sound a bit snippy, for lack of a better word. I think David did a good job of explaining what I was trying to get at though.
I understand Warren’s surprise.
Generally we like to think that our compatriots (for want of a better term) are reasonable. Sure they have their beliefs and sometimes they share them in a bit of a forceful way, but they aren’t hateful bigots. Surely there is a limit to which they would go.
Suppose the situation were turned around. Suppose some gay activist advocated something extreme. Something like supporting a law that jailed any preacher that preached against homosexuality.
Well I know that we would all (gay, straight, and etc.) think that was wrong and would speak out against it. But imagine if HRC and GLAAD and Stonewall Democrats and Log Cabin Republicans all started throwing rallies supporting this activist.
I would find that perplexing. Because I believe that the gay community really isn’t anti-Christian and supports freedom of speech.
Just as Warren (if I may so presume) believes that anti-gays aren’t really homophobic and are not motivated by hate.
So when he hears what is clearly extremist speech – like that offered by Sally Kern – he thinks it is outside the norm. It doesn’t reflect the attitudes of the Christians or the conservatives with whom he hangs. Surely naming railing about how homosexuality is worse than terrorism and how it will destroy society in decades isn’t acceptable. That’s wacky hateful stuff.
So yeah, it’s perplexing when you discover that there are people who run to Kern’s defense and no one from the conservative camp is willing to join you in condemning her words. Those news sources who Warren works with joined the “celebrate Sally’s free speech” bandwagon without a peep about the evil content of her speech.
I suspect Warren found out a bit more about his compatriots through this. I think that perhaps more of them are motivated by hatred than he thought. I think that perhaps fewer of them really believe in loving the homosexual than he thought. I suspect that Warren was surprised that so very many anti-gays put the culture war and “opposing the homosexual agenda” above being good and decent people.
And that can be very disappointing and perplexing.
but that’s just my guess
Marty wrote:
And ultimately that’s what the gay agenda is all about. Because without sin, there is no guilt. Without guilt, there is no repentance. Without repentance, there is no salvation. And without salvation, there awaits an eternity of torment.
I’ve rarely seen a Christian lay out the heart of Christianity so succinctly before, and it proves what I’ve been saying all along:
Christianity is a guilt-based religion. Christians want you to feel really, really guilty and broken. That way, you will keep coming back to church to get the “fix” (and put donations in the plate).
It’s no small wonder that Dan Barker said, “A Christian is a person who cuts you with a knife and then tries to sell you a bandage.”
Living under superstitious notions of “sin” and perpetual guilt is harmful, and thus Christianity is harmful. Marty, you might want to take note that your religion is falling in popularity. Perhaps it’s because the core of your religion is harmful?
J James,
Keep in mind that Marty’s view of gays and christianity are not the same views that are held by all christians or ex gays.
Many years ago, I found this tract: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0084/0084_01.asp
I was a brand-new Christian, secretly struggling with gay feelings and looking for something — anything — that would shed a little light and hope. Instead, this was all I found at our local Christians bookstore — a nasty, negative, stereotyped, comic book presentation of “gays” and their “agenda”. I was hurt and disgusted.
Why on Earth would Christians portray us in this way? Why would they want to stir up fear and prejudice? Didn’t they know we didn’t look like that? Didn’t they know they we were like them, that went to the same church and sat in the same pews? Didn’t they know we loved Jesus, too?
Didn’t they know that we were not out to overthrow the government, recruit their kids, criminalize Christianity or destroy their families? What was this awful “agenda” they kept talking about?
I was so appalled by this tract that I decided there should be a ministry of some sort — to educate the church on what gay people really were like and to reach out to gays who were searching for God. This tract inspired me to create something different.
That’s how EXIT was formed and why we hosted the first conference where EXODUS was born. We wanted to present an educated, fair and compassionate picture of gay people. I thought we had made some progress.
Now, sadly, EXODUS seems to be promoting this same reactionary view of gays as a dangerous, evil menace — with an “agenda” — a threat worse than terrorism, a cancer to be cut out. Now, EXODUS applauds the inflammatory rhetoric we tried to calm. It’s “Chick Tracts” all over again. And very few Christians, with the notable exception of Warren and some readers of this blog, are speaking out against it. I, like Warren, am sad, perplexed and disappointed.
Ah Chick Tracks. What a nutcase Chick was.
You have to love the reference to MacAlister at Gezor (sic). Actually Robert MacAlister conducted such a poor job at Gezer that he eliminated any possiblity of properly dating the well there. He thought a gate from the time of Solomon was a castle from the time of the Maccabeans and his most impressive find, a calendar, was pulled from his trash heap by a tourist.
As for the ‘vomit inducing’ finds there, none were of a homosexual nature. There seemed to be evidence of a sex-cult and perhaps child sacrifice. But considering that MacAlister destroyed the integrity of the site and got most other things wrong, it can’t be taken as gospel.
So Jack Chick just threw the Gezer stuff in there to frighten and confuse. But, then again, Chick isn’t known for his integrity.