The American Psychiatric Association will host a symposium called “Homosexuality and Therapy: The Religious Dimension” at their annual meeting in Washington DC on May 5, 2008. I will be on the panel along with David Scasta, MD, Rev. Albert Mohler, Bishop Gene Robinson and moderator, John Peteet, MD. Dr. Scasta is past-president of the Association of Gay and Lesbian Psychiatrists (AGLP); Dr. Mohler is president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and a candidate for the presidency of the Southern Baptist Convention, Bishop Robinson is the first openly gay Bishop in the Episcopal Church and Dr. Peteet is Associate Professor of Psychiatry at Harvard, Medical Director (Psychiatry), Adult Psychosocial Oncology Program, Dana-Farber Cancer Institute and Chair of the APA Committee on Religion, Spirituality & Psychiatry.
An extensive background article by David Scasta about the symposium can be found on page 10 in this month’s newsletter of the AGLP. An excerpt:
Could we ever get a group of scientists and clinicians on both sides of the religious divide to seek common ground while committed to honesty in the scientific research about homosexuality – no matter what the outcome? While I can plead that most gays are not dead by their mid 40s and that those conclusions come from a distorted, blatant attempt to discredit gays, Christian conservative groups will dismiss my ranting out-of-hand. However, when someone like Dr. Throckmorton makes the same conclusions, these groups reluctantly listen. By the same token, when Dr. Throckmorton states that an assertion in our film [Abomination] is not supported by the data, AGLP ignores him. But if someone from AGLP makes that assertion…I decided to talk with Dr. Throckmorton.
The symposium will be held between 2:00-5:00 pm in lecture halls 159 A & B in the Washington DC Convention Center and include the following components:
Practice Framework for Managing Sexual Identity Conflicts
Warren Throckmorton, PhDThe Psycho-Social Bases of Theologies that Compel Efforts to Change Sexual Orientation: The Psychiatric Ethical Response
David Scasta, MDA Pastoral Approach for Gay & Lesbian People Troubled by Homosexuality
Bishop Gene RobinsonA Pastoral Approach for Gay & Lesbian People Troubled by Homosexuality
Rev. Richard Albert Mohler, Jr., PhDDiscussant, Dr. Peteet, Chair of the APA Committee on Religion, Spirituality & Psychiatry.
I want to thank David Scasta and John Peteet for taking the initiative in making this symposium a reality. I look forward to the meeting, the give and take and opportunity to bring the discussion of sexual identity issues to this forum.
Concerned,
What you describe is also at the heart of what is known in the church as spiritual direction which is meant to allow the person to discover for themselves what they are being called to.
Absolutely – You’ve hit on something that I agree with. I would take it a step further and say BECAUSE this is such an issue of religion, that counselors – especially the APA, should stay out of the mess as much as possible and let priests and pastors deal with this issue – let the Church deal with this since it is a spiritual issue. IF the person has other issues than bring in a counselor, but don’t permit a secular organization – any of them – be the ones to primarily deal with this issue. – Just my opinion though
The problem isn’t with gay affirmative therapy though – the problem lies in those therapies that seek to try and help people deal with their “unwanted” same sex attractions.
Jayhuck,
There is a problem with gay affirming therapy if the client doesn’t want it and is being told there is no other option. The consequences are devastating. While the therapist walks away with their smug opinion, the client is left shattered. What is right about any of that?
Ann,
I think its a little presumptuous to assume any therapist is smug when we don’t understand the situation, and its very hard for a therapist to help a client who is sure they want to deal with their attractions in a non-affirmative way because there is no protocol for that therapist to go by – where do they refer the client ethically – how do they know which organizations are good or bad? When the problem the client has is not a disease how does a therapist in good conscience deal with that.
There are just too many problems with the system right now for ANY therapist to be able to deal with this situation – of course the client can always try things out on there own – there are plenty of resources available to anyone who can do a Google search – but whether these will be good or effective is up to debate.
I disagree that it is just a spiritual issue and strongly urge that counselors be able to help people with this issue. Had I just been turned over to a priest or pastor – they are not equipped with the expertise to delve into the subject matter – and my concerns (and theology) would have been dismissed. Remember a pastor or preist has a specific set of belief statments that he must believe and accept to keep his job at the church. I needed to recieve counsel from a person who has experience with human sexuality (in a greater perspective than just what the church is talking about), allowing me to express and live my own theology, and someone with a large pool of resources to pull from. In fact, when interviewing people – I was adamant about the education criteria, licensing, experience, gender, and age of the counselor. I needed and wanted an expert and a professional.
Evan–
Thanks for your input. Didn’t think you were pushing for credentials, BTW! And, LOL, I’ve never been much for them. If it’s truth, it ought to ring as truth no matter who speaks it and regardless of what their ‘credentials’ are. I’ve appreciated many of your insights.
Concerned–
Good to hear from you also. I appreciate your compliments and take courage from them. I do note that Jayhuck responded to your post to me before I could and that you’ve now had several exchanges. I honestly don’t see how I can avoid another frustrating entanglement with him if I respond to you. Perhaps we’ll catch up to each other on another topic in the near future.
Jayhuck–
You and I may converse again on another thread sometime but I stopped reading your responses to me up around 89623…somewhere around the time the thread got closed and reopened again.
Ann and Mary–
Your earlier comments were more brief but I appreciate your hopefulness tempered with the right amount of caution. Can’t wait for May to see how this actually plays out.
Mary–
I think you, more than most, share my distaste for the divide that says that Christians ought to get their help from the Church. I find it absurd that psychology couldn’t effectively assist a person based on the individuals religious beliefs. Psychology is, after all, the study of the mind and that’s where belief is centered. As a minister, I found I could help and assist people who weren’t religious…by connecting with their beliefs…with ‘what makes them tick’; I really can’t see why psychologists couldn’t do the same in reverse. It feels like someone keeps drawing a line of divide that isn’t really there.
Me too, Eddy. I deal with many different kinds of people. I am amazed at how really knowing someone from their perspective is soooo…. energizing and valuable. (folks sorry for my spelling – I just don’t care that much to go back anc check)
I find it absurd that psychology couldn’t effectively assist a person based on the individuals religious beliefs. Psychology is, after all, the study of the mind and that’s where belief is centered.
Eddy,
Count me in on this too – I completely agree!
I think its a little presumptuous to assume any therapist is smug when we don’t understand the situation
Jayhuck,
Presumptious? I don’t think so based on the scenario I presented – no therapist has to tell a client to accept that which they do not want and that there are no other options available and to just accept this as “who they are”. What is right about that for the client? Nothing – it is devastating.
Mary,
I think properly trained priests and pastors could deal with this issue – In fact, they have been dealing with this issue for decades. This is really a religious issue though when you get right down to it and I’m just squeamish about involving too much religion in science or vice versa – I know I’ve hammered that issue into the ground on other threads.
That said though, I think the issue has been taken up enough now by the field of psychology that its inevitable Psychologists and Psychiatrists will have to deal with it on some level. How psychologists and psychiatrists – a primarily secular field of study is going to deal with religious “issues” is going to be interesting – especially one this complex. I do think we’ll see them grappling with this more and having to deal with it somehow – I’m just not sure how. Perhaps the symposium will help us get that ball rolling
Psychology IS the study of the mind – I don’t really believe that BELIEF is centered in the physical mind though – I believe there is a spiritual heart where belief is centered but that is dealing more with theology and I don’t want to go down that road – we have plenty to talk about the way it is
Eddy – I’m sure you won’t read this but if you can’t have a conversation with someone on this thread because you’re worried about getting into another “frustrating entanglement” with me, I’m not sure how other threads are going to be different for you. I encourage you to talk to people without worrying what other people say if that’s bothering you so much.
Concerned – I’m enjoying talking to you and while we don’t always see eye to eye, I think there’s enough common ground for us to have good conversations
Ann,
You were being presumptuous when you called a therapist smug simply because they were gay-affirming. If I misread you please tell me.
Sexuality, the development, expression, experience etc… is studied as a subject in college. It has many physical components – arousal, blood flow, blood pressure, pupil dilations, nerve endings through out the body … etc.. It develops over time as a person matures and their brain signals hormonal changes, recieves sensory input etc… And my life impresses on me as I move through those stages. Ah – the intersection of nature and nurture.
Breaking that down with an experienced, trained scientist is my basis for putting together an understanding of my sexuality and the development there of. Working that out with a pastor is not going to cut it when his expertise is of spiritual matters and sexuality (as it is limited by the bible).
Sorry but any more comments that tell me I am wrong about my experience and white wash it – are going to be heretofore dismissed.
You were being presumptuous when you called a therapist smug simply because they were gay-affirming. If I misread you please tell me.
This is so untrue – I said they were smug when they told a client they had no choice except to accept their unwanted feelings and live accordingly – the therapist can walk away with and the client is left devastated.
Ann,
All I’m saying is how can you know a therapist is being smug when they tell a client something like that. How could you know what a therapist was thinking or feeling. I was trying to show you earlier that a therapist might tell a client something like that for a variety of reasons, and they wouldn’t have anything to do with making him feel smug.
Mary,
yes – Sexuality is a biological and sociological process – but the desire to alter it is usually a religious one. In the past it has been the Church that has dealt with this issues – sometimes successfully. Will a psychologist really be any better, I’m not sure and I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
I hope you’re not taking my comments to be saying your experience is somehow wrong – or that I’m whitewashing something.- was that directed at me?
I meant to say sexuality involves both biology and psychology
Concerned said in post 89788:
I have seen science often defame the Church because of the positions it holds on a number of issues. From where I am sitting today I am very glad that the Church has not budged on its position on sexuality. The science is still learning from the studies being carried out. I suspect, eventually the science will come to see that what the Church has been teaching all along is much more loving than their own approach to this issue.
Can you be a little more specific? For example which church are you referring to when you say: “the church“. Because there are a lot of churches with a wide range of positions on sexuality, from the Westboro Baptist Church to the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence.
Further, science is not an entity that is capable of defaming anything. So, perhaps you can clarify what you mean by “I have seen science often defame the Church … ” by giving some specific examples.
Jayhuck-
I did catch your last comment. Don’t worry about me. I’ve managed to have a few hopeful exchanges tonight and I’ll find a way to have others in the future. I’m not at all worried about what others might say; it’s a time and focus issue with me.
There’s enough people blogging here that we should both be able to survive quite nicely. And, I’m personally convinced that once we break the ‘one note/one slant’ tone of the blog, others might actually stop in for an open-minded discussion.
Ann, Mary–
Please realize that there’s no blog rule saying you have to answer or even acknowledge a direct question. I’ve got at least 3 questions that I’ve asked and repeated on other threads and they’ve gone ignored. (LOL. That’s an answer in itself.) So far, I’ve been involved in two threads where one or more of the participants have stormed out in mid-conversation…only to come back, deliver another zinger or two…and then leave again. The refusal to talk with someone you find to be argumentative and the refusal to answer a question that you feel is either inappropriate or ‘loaded’ pales by comparison.
And Mary–
I truly do feel the frustration and outrage in your last statement. The audacity of someone telling me what I should or shouldn’t feel, where I should or shouldn’t seek help, what level of help I should settle for ‘because I’m a Christian’, presuming to know what I think or feel, suggesting that I’m one brick shy of crazy, taking regular slams at ‘them’ when I know they’re counting me among ‘them’ and, worse yet, the insincere apologies that usually follow…only to be followed by a fresh batch of the same old, same old within hours or days. I keep hoping I’ll wake up from the nightmare.
Ann–
I think I speak for both Mary and myself that we appreciate your genuine concern and compassion. I’m so glad that you’ve found Warren’s ‘little corner of the world’.
(I’ve been pushing chores back all week meaning my day off on Friday will probably be a fun catch-up day.) NIght all–past my bedtime!
Ken–
Jayhuck has been making statements about the divide between science and Christians, science and the church for much of this thread. Why do you save the question about the meaning of ‘the church’ for Concerned? Did you know what it meant when Jayhuck said it? Did you lose the interpretation when Concerned did?
Eddy,
Thanks for understanding. I must be in a festive mood or a beligerent one – here goes a frivilous expenditure of my blogging budget…
Zing! Zap! Zowey! Caio! LOL.
Mary and Eddy,
The audacity of someone telling me what I should or shouldn’t feel, where I should or shouldn’t seek help, what level of help I should settle for ‘because I’m a Christian’, presuming to know what I think or feel, suggesting that I’m one brick shy of crazy, taking regular slams at ‘them’ when I know they’re counting me among ‘them’ and, worse yet, the insincere apologies that usually follow…only to be followed by a fresh batch of the same old, same old within hours or days. I keep hoping I’ll wake up from the nightmare.
Who is doing these things to you? I personally believe a person should seek help wherever they want to seek help, and they should have the freedom to seek whatever help they deem necessary. In fact, all of us already have that freedom
Eddy,
Your bitterness is showing – and I’m not sure how great it is that you speak through other people and use other people’s issues to voice problems of your own.
Eddy,
Or that you seem to be trying to couch your issues in other people’s issues and then try to pass it off as some sort of empathizing.
Please forgive me if I’m wrong about all this, but you seem to be directing some of your words at me. I am sorry if I’m wrong and just being overly sensitive, but trying to discuss things with you and being criticized at every single turn for nearly a year has sort of made me that way. For being someone who doesn’t enjoy having their words spun and who doesn’t like people telling them what they are thinking, you SURE seem to be alright with doing that to other people.
Eddy,
I’m just curious – were you really OK with Ann’s use of the word “smug”??? Or did you now see that earlier?
Eddy,
I’m just curious – were you really OK with Ann’s use of the word “smug”??? Or did you not see that earlier?
Eddy and Ken,
When I was using the words “the Church”, I was speaking about the entire Body of Christ. FYI
I realize all churches have different beliefs but in the past it has been the priest/pastor that has dealt with spiritual issues.
Jayhuck,
The sentiment Eddy feels is one I have felt with you also.
I speak of my experiences and you continue without ceasing to say that that is not so. IE: that my sexuality and christianity is only a christian issue and not one of science. My scientific inquest of my sexuality is very tied to my belief system. I see God in the order of the universe. Galileo Galilea did, too. So did Einstein, Newton, and others….(You can now stop reading the entire post as you will want to hurry up and tell me that I am wrong about myself again)
I am floored each time you tell me what is my experience and what is my sexuality. Amazing. You don’t even realize how much you do this.
Wow Eddy – you support Mary and Ann and Concerned, who believe as you do, but not Ken or I who have different opinions? – what were David Robert’s words months ago – Totally gobsmacked I am
Mary,
All I’ve ever done is told you that I don’t agree with you. We both have come to realize we’ve had different experiences that have led us down different paths. I’m not now, nor will I ever suggest that your experiences are less or worse than mine. I’ve either not made myself clear, or we just simply stopped really listening to what the other was saying some time ago.
I have always believed in your freedom to pursue your bliss in whatever way you see fit – but that is not going to stop me from sharing my opinion on things. We may never agree, but I believe we can definitely and harmoniously co-exist.
Personally, I think Eddy’s issues with me run much deeper and they are things that will probably never be settled on this blog.
Please tell me how I can best express my opinions and my disagreements with you without making you feel that I am somehow demeaning your own experience?
Mary,
I really think many of our communication problems are coming from having to read text and not actually talking to the other person. SO MUCH of communication is missed, especially when people have differing viewpoints, in text messages.
I do think I have a problem making myself clear and voicing my own opinions without hurting others sometimes – so I’m willing and open to hearing how I can better myself in this area. I am obviously only having this problem with people I disagree with because others who share more of my opinion are not expressing these same issues. Please do tell me how I can improve my communication with you. I’m not perfect and I am well aware of that – I’m painfully aware of my own faults but I don’t want us to continue to have such an online relationship.
To be clear Jayhuck, stop telling me that my sexuality and my concerns over it are only spiritual. Had that been the case for most of humanity we would not have science classes on sexuality.
jayhuck – you wrote “Psychology IS the study of the mind – I don’t really believe that BELIEF is centered in the physical mind though – I believe there is a spiritual heart where belief is centered but that is dealing more with theology and I don’t want to go down that road .”
This sounds like a kind of dualism of mind and spirit that I am unfamiliar with. In my view belief is built into our brains. We believe things all the time that have nothing to do with religion. I believe blogging helps create tolerance (wow, what faith I have!) but I really do think that belief is involving neural pathways involving the frontal cortex and the amygdala. Science is a way of finding out and religion is a way of gaining a sense of order and predictability. But I do not see the evidence for segmenting a kind of thought out of the brain and into a something ethereal.
Help me understand if I am reading you right.
Warren,
My mistake – I was talking about Faith.
Mary,
I will stop that – I actually didn’t even realize I was doing that, and I darn sure never meant to. I still believe that for most people, their concerns over their sexuality are mostly spiritual, and I think if we look at the numbers of people seeking such help over their sexuality the numbers of people would bear that out – However, I will work to make sure my words never suggest such a thing for you again. I hesitate to say I’m sorry because others have called my apologies insincere – but, I am!!!!! I won’t promise I’ll be perfect, I am only a, forgive the cliche, “work in progress”, but I’ll hope that you call me out on it when I start doing something like this again.
Ken and Jayhuck,
All I will say is that I am Catholic with an education in Biology. I have listened to biologist knock the church for years. I have just heard as much of it as I would care to hear, because I have not experienced what many of them claim to be the root of their issues with the church. By the way I have also been very involved with ecumenism and have many friends in various denominations. I find things that I love very much in many different traditions, but I also find much that I cannot agree with.
Warren,
What I was talking about is something of a spiritual heart – I’ll just give you a quote out of one of my favorite books – if you want to take this offline that’s fine
“Every man has two hearts. One is the body’s heart. The other is the soul’s heart. The good or bad condition of both of our hearts is very important. If something happens to either one, then we have heart problems and our life is in danger, whether it is the life of our body or the life of our soul. Unfortunately, many Christians, both clergy and laity still don’t understand this. And although they take great care to appear externally good, decent, honest, consistent, religious and loyal people, unfortunately they care very little, if at all, or almost at all, about having a clean, good and holy heart.
Someone might object saying that the mind can’t be the heart (spiritual). When we say mind we usually mean our brain. However, according to our Holy Fathers, our mind is found in the heart and uses the brain as an organ to express itself….thoughts therefore which we would justifiably say are born in our mind are truly born in our mind. This mind however is located in our heart and not in our brain. The thoughts then come out and go to our brain for screening and elaboration ”
There’s more to it and I’ve probably already shared more than I needed to, but this is the basis for my comment
Since meditating can be measured, elctronically pictured, and can influence breathing, pulse, blood pressure and such….
I am of the thought that spirituality really does exist in the mind. For myself, I have to set my mind on something, then focus, meditate on it , let it dwell in me and as more experiences during the course of my hours and days come to pass, they comingle. New thoughts and different understandings and meanings come to “mind”. Thus changing my feelings. It is all in my mind as in brain.
Mary,
I don’t think the writer of that passage would disagree that the spiritual heart can’t affect the body in a physical way – in fact, that is what he was saying when he called the brain an organ that expresses and elaborate the “thoughts” of the spiritual heart – but, this concept is covered in an entire book and I definitely don’t think that everyone is going to agree with it, and I really don’t trust my own ability to explain it since I’m still grappling with aspects of it myself. Anyway – its out there
Warren,
I hope you got my message about the show Taboo on the NatGeo channel!
Take care all – I have to be up and at the hospital in 6 hours and I really need some rest. Mary, I’m honestly glad we had that talk, I hope we’ll be able to have better and more respectful conversations in the future!
The quotes are all from Jayhuck:
Sure is hard keeping up with who and what I am and what I’m doing and why I’m doing it. I’m sure Jayhuck will have more clear insights later.
If I’m correct, the last two argumentative charges are in response to my responding to Mary’s frustration…a frustration I share. It’s one of a very few places where I said much other than ‘thank you’ to someone who shares my views and suddenly “I seem to be using other peoples issues to advance mine”. What happened to my right to communicate a shared feeling with one of the bloggers? When I do, am I always just advancing my own cause…using the situation…how do I learn the difference.
The funniest one though was attacking me for acknowledging that Ann, Mary and I are in agreement a few things. So Ken goes after Concerned while skipping right by Jayhuck who’s used some of the same terminology. And, in his attack on me, and my ‘teaming up’, Jayhuck doesn’t just mention Ken but he brings up David Roberts…one of ‘his team’ who isn’t even in the conversation. Perhaps you’re hypersensitive to people ‘teaming up’ because you always thought it was exclusively your territory.