The title is a bit of a word play in that I call attention to a keynote address (caution: large mp3 file) by Wendy Gritter at the 2008 Exodus Leadership Conference. Introduced by Exodus President, Alan Chambers, Mrs. Gritter is leader of the New Direction ministries in Canada. The mission of New Direction is “creating a safe place for same-gender-attracted people to journey towards wholeness in Christ.” The focus of New Direction appears to be much more focused on Christian ministry to same-sex attracted people as opposed to mediating change of sexual orientation.
The address is about an hour long and should be heard completely to get the message but I pulled out a couple of quotes to portray the tone:
What would it mean to stop seeing the gay affirming church as our enemy?
…when we look at those who now have their stories on the Beyond Ex-gay website…we also ought not to be patronizing? There can be this subtle sense that ‘you just didn’t try hard enough….but see we did.’ How can we engage relationally with those who have come to different theological understanding than we have?
I think we need to relinquish a defensive posture that would focus on what we are against instead of what we are for.
What the culture sees is that you guys are about reorientation.
We shoot ourselves in the foot when we put second things first.
There is much more and you can get a sense of the direction from the Power Point as well. The general tone is that Exodus would be wise to avoid political entanglements that prevent optimal Christian ministry. Ministry should be the main (sole?) focus. In addition, she takes on the messaging of Exodus that change is possible and causation is not inherent. She believes those issues should be secondary to actual Christian formation and living. With reorientation as the focus, Christian ministry can take a backseat. In other words, Exodus should not be a “poster child for straightness” as the main message.
There is much to unpack here so let’s talk…
I do not think checking out of conversation is a helpful strategy either. This post is about Wendy Gritter’s address and I think we have as a group indicated significant agreement with the points she made. There are many things to disagree about but I am encouraged that some changes are being discussed and considered.
(Be prepared … long post.)
If we’re going to continue along with this thread on Wendy’s presentation, I’d like us to consider addressing something else she said.
In one portion she spoke about the sequence of “belonging … believing … behaving” in regard to non-Christians and also those that differ in opinion on sexuality. How an unconditional welcome should proceed expectations of doctrinal assent or personal behavior. Some in the Church seem to expect the reverse approach – get in line and on board about beliefs and behavior, and then you’re welcome to join us.
I realize there’s wide variation as to how those two sequences are lived out among the branches of Christendom, but here’s how it’s playing out for United Methodists at the moment. (Please bear with me as I’ll be getting to a point.) Two years ago, a local church pastor in Virginia denied or delayed official membership to a gay man, and not all the rhyme or reason for that decision has ever been made public. The pastor’s immediate supervisor and Bishop demanded he receive the man into membership, and when the pastor refused, he was removed from the pulpit. That decision was appealed to the equivalent of our church “supreme court,” which ruled the pastor had not received due process, and they also ruled that our polity gives pastors sole discretion to decide readiness for membership. The pastor was reinstated but moved to a different church the next year. And the gay man has since joined the original local church.
It’s opened up a long overdue conversation about the meaning of membership in our denomination. We have very few requirements, but there are expectations of sexual morality and that is generally spelled out in the membership vows. We are sure to have heated, though not necessarily enlightening, debate and discussion at our upcoming international gathering in April.
Now, I don’t particularly want to get into a debate about the rightness or wrongness of the pastor’s actions. Instead, I’d like to hear how you think that sequence of “belonging … believing … behaving” – applies.
Wendy, do you see that as primarily applying to Christian fellowship? Would you have higher expectations for official membership? I was going to ask you privately offline, but thought others might like to read your responses. And anyone responding … could we try to get past purely personal preferences and think in more broadly theological and Biblical categories?
It would be very helpful for me as I prepare for the meeting in April. I haven’t decided yet on membership issues and my Board doesn’t have consensus either.
And Eddy and Timothy, please don’t either of you “check out” of the discussion.
I’m actually angry now.
Has ANYONE who is accusing me of “blaming the church” actually read what I wrote?
“I think it may be time to ask exactly what message the 14 year old murderer Brandon McInerney, got from society and the church. What did they say loudest about the value of Lawrence King? What did McInerney hear?”
and
“I don’t want to accuse the church of not intending to love, but I do think we all need to realize that if the church is saying “love”, no one is hearing it. Gay people don’t hear that message. McInerney didn’t hear it.”
and
“This stuff just sets up further boundaries and barriers. And whether some like it or not, this [Anglican anti-gay screed] is EXACTLY what gets out there into the minds of people who think it perfectly ok to rid the world of another degenerate fag.
…
And lest we think that Christians certainly don’t want this to happen, or that Christians are horrified by this action, or the murderer was not listening to the church’s message of love, this is how Cybercast News Service opened their article on the murder:
A 14-year-old California boy is charged with a hate crime as well as attempted murder for shooting a 15-year-old boy who “sometimes wore makeup, high heels and other feminine attire,” as the Associated Press reported.”
Does that sound like I’m “accusing the church” or “taking a broad swipe”? The closest I get is when everyone jumps in to say “oh we’re innocent, innocent, innocent and did no wrong”:
“Folks, listen to yourselves:
No, I didn’t stone that guy to death. I only threw two stones.”
You know something, the only one who showed any concern about a child being murdered for being gay was Wendy (and Ned to a much lesser extent).
Do you people even realize how callous you sound?
You are all rushing to defend the church from extreme accusations that I didn’t even make. But you seem to care nothing at all about the murder. You want total absolution from the circumstances that make this sort of thing a regular part of the life of gay people.
Don’t you understand why it is that non-Christians find you horrifying?
Your response to the murder of a child was “you can’t blame me”. And one Christian news site literally used the blood of this kid as an excuse to say “Homosexual activists have seized on Lawrence King case”.
Do you really not get it?
It is not my words here that are portraying you negatively, it is yours.
The non-Christians are all asking themselves, “What did we do wrong. How could this have been prevented.” But for some sick perverted reason which frankly I just don’t understand, Christians are not doing the same.
Think, people.
Is justification and defensiveness really the response you want to give to the world?
Wendy is right. The church looks like it isn’t loving.
And you know why it looks like it isn’t loving? Because if what I see here on this website is any example… it ISN’T loving. I see no Christ here.
You know why you don’t want to ask yourself what message McInerney heard from the church. You know why that threatens you so.
But you have a choice. You can decide to be part of that crowd that absolves the church from anything. Or you can be part of the crowd who asks if their message has not been clearly portrayed in a loving way. If there isn’t something you can do differently.
Wendy,
if the attitudes here are any example, you have your work cut out for you.
Frankly I’m so disgusted that I just can’t be a part of this.
In case you guys still don’t get it, Karoli, a heterosexual female put it very plainly
http://www.drumsnwhistles.com/2008/02/16/open-letter-to-saveourkidsnet/
The greatest challenge in understanding is listening uncritically to the other’s point of view. I am listening and seeking to learn what I can about how I (we) sound not only to Timothy, but also to many others here. I have found this discussion to be rewarding and I hope that you all have as well.
Perhaps as much as anything else this discussion is about cross-cultural communication. The gay culture and the conservative Christian culture (if we could call them such) have deeply engrained stereotypes, prejudices and hostilities against one another. When we communicate well, we can get past these rigid images and speak person to person. Are we getting there? I hope so.
Timothy, I agree with you that there are some people in the Church that are homophobic. That’s why I spend a large portion of my time with church leaders encouraging them to address their stereotypes and hateful attitudes abut LGBT people and repenting of that. Once back in my “old stomping grounds” of Western PA, I spoke in a church where a member of the youth group said all gay people should be shipped off to an island somewhere and an older female leader kept referring to “those homosexuals” with a sneer in her voice. I challenged both of them AND the pastor who hadn’t noticed a problem.
I do get it, Timothy. There really is hatred and the church has done a sucky job of confronting it.
But I also know that you and I don’t agree on issues of civil rights and you seem to think that is hateful. And I will never agree that compassionate Christian teaching on the sinfulness of homosexual behavior somehow morphs into the atrocity in Oxnard.
Does the new Anglican book qualify as compassionate Christian teaching? From your snippets, no. Does it reflect all of us? Again, no. I don’t like it when you universalize.
Okay, I thought I was out of here.
Timothy, in the midst of a discussion that was proving very productive, said all of the following:
Anyone?
Part Two:
The first time I got mugged for being gay was when a gay friend and I were at an inner city coffeehouse–think 1970′s. It was boring that night so, on a lark, I suggested we go visit my uncle who, due to mental incapacity, resided at the YMCA two blocks away near the river.
We had a pleasant visit and headed back to the coffeehouse. The gay cruising street was between the two places. We got about a block when I noticed quick dark movements up the street we planned to walk. So I suggested we go another before turning, hoping they hadn’t noticed us cross.
We made our turn and got about a half block when they appeared. Five of them. No weapons that I could see. My friend wasn’t street savvy at all. The river was down a steep 30 to 40 foot embankment only a half block behind us, our only choice was to go forward and pray for the safety of a street light. I whispered to him to do exactly what I said and when they got to us and started closing in, I yelled “Run”.
At 17, I was two years older than Bruce. I’m no he-man but he made me look butch. And I learned a few things from years of abuse from my brothers (only one for being gay; the others were brothers beating on ‘the runt’ occasionally) So, I crouched down next to the front tire of a parked car so that at least one side would be protected. And then I refused to cry out or give them any response to fuel their frenzy.
I took a good blow on the side of my face from ear to eye. I remember a couple of knees into my sides and one good kick but they didn’t break anything. Finally, they ran off towards the river.
Or in my 30′s, and an ex-gay but presumed to be gay. That time it was a blow to the side of the face and a torn rotator-cuff as I wrenched to get away.
Or the time it happened at a busstop. I’d escaped him once but he was dogging the busstop and that was my way home. I flagged my bus down mid-block and kept running back and forth as this guy was trying to close in again. He tried to follow me onto the bus and I told the driver. “Look, if he needs to ride then let him ride but let me off…and don’t let him off. I just want us separated.”
In my fright, I had misread the bus number. I was going to have to find a place to transfer to another bus. It wasn’t the best part of town and when several of us got off there, one of them mentioned “oh, you’re the guy that was getting beaten up”. I wouldn’t let any of them within 30 feet of me. Which meant that I waited for the bus in the middle of the street. Finally it came and dropped me off 4 blocks from home. I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t walk the four dark blocks. I tried…several times but I was unable to leave the comfort of the streetlight. I walked two blocks down the lit street to a payphone and called my best friend for a ride.
Another time at the busstop, a guy had me down on the ground beating me and trying to find my wallet. I could see feet, dozens of them passing by. I heard him sneer to one “It’s a domestic situation.” And then I saw this fist come down and hook him under the jaw. “I don’t care what it is. Nobody does that to anybody.”
There were about 6 to 8 more incidents that were a touch less dramatic but my point is I find your suggestion that I felt little or no outrage or compassion outrageous. Your suggestion that I don’t care about solutions is equally outrageous. I’m taking the hate and I’m not even a bonafide member of the target group. But, what really irks me, is that–on top of that hate–I have to endure intermittent doses of your venom too.
Pots and kettles!
Please, Please, Please stop seeing us through your presumptions.
Timothy,
Perhaps the news paper wanted to avoid a liability suit and reported only what could be documented – what the boy wore, how he looked etc… They may not have been able to document that he was gay becuse no proof existed.
Just showing how our assumptions can sometimes not be fully investigated.
This debate appears to have devolved as many do here. However, if I could, I would like to make two comments:
@Karen
Ancient Rome had a political system more like ours than not. Where exactly do you see in any scripture the call to be salt through public policy? What evidence is there that Jesus sought to influence anyone through the state?
@Warren
Perhaps a beginning to understanding Timothy’s comments might be to ask why you speak of him and “the gays” as though they are at opposite ends of a spectrum. The last I heard, Timothy is a member of the Church, and more than entitled to ask what our responsibilities, as the Church, are in the demonization of gays.
Was Timothy speaking the inclusive definition of Christianity when he said:
It sounded ‘us and them’ to me. I honestly didn’t realize he was speaking of himself as well in these words.
David, I am speaking of the prophetic tradition of the Old Testament, which I referenced (though not overtly) in an earlier post. The classical OT prophets confronted primarily the community of God and secondarily the culture to call them back to fidelity to God’s will.
I might not have been as clear as I could about what I mean by shaping public policy – I mean by that teaching, bearing witness, etc. in a way that can have a positive influence on the culture and yes, even the state. I do not mean direct political action, which I already stated I have mixed feelings about.
Do you have equal problems with Christians trying to shape public policy in other areas – the environment or international slavery, for example?
Karen,
My personal belief on our influence on the culture will be in our own behavior. Actions speak louder than words. We don’t need laws to tell us not to do something if we believe in it strongly enough and our upbringing of future generations with value will either be a testament to our enduring faith and value. The Amish, Menomites, FLDS, and Orthodox Jews do that and they survive intaked.
oops – sentence farcture
either will be a testament to our enduring faith and values or a testament to the opposite.
Your argument is with Jesus, not me Karen. Those OT prophets were speaking to a select audience, the Jews, no? The nation of Israel was ruled by the laws of God. How one deals with the church, and how one deals with a nation with a civil government and a host of beliefs, are two different things in my estimation. Or do you suggest that the US should be run like ancient Israel? A theocracy perhaps?
Jesus and His disciples dealt with people, one on one. They didn’t show the least bit of interest in the state, and in fact the only time Jesus addresses the matter He specifically says that we should let the state deal the the matters of state (render unto Cesare…)
Your example of international slavery is absurd and I won’t even address it. As to the Church and the environment, I personally don’t care if the Church ever involves itself in such matters. I don’t see that as it’s mandate.
In fact, Jesus’ only contemporary who I can recall having tried to use earthly might to accomplish Kingdom work was Judas. The meek seem to have become rather boastful, with big budgets and professional lobbyists. But it’s all for a good cause, right?
Actually taking care of the earth is a mandate of the church. As it is written in Genesis that we were given dominion and are to care for it.
It just so happens tht whether you are religious or not it is a good idea to be environmentally concerned (at least until we have a plan as to how we get out of here)
And as we see in the temptations of Jesus in the desert – he was offered all the nations of the earth if he would only bow to Satan. He declined. So should we.
oops spelling again – intact. (In my defense – I do have a really bad cold or flu this weekend)
I don’t have an argument with Jesus, David. I just don’t reduce the whole of Scriptural testimony to 4 chapters in the New Testament. I have a high view of the Trinity – meaning I believe Jesus was present and “speaking” via the Holy Spirit throughout the entire Bible, both previous to his birth and after his death, resurrection and ascension.
You do raise interesting questions though. Dr. John Cobin, author of Christian Theology of Public Policy, has a great online essay – http://www.policyofliberty.net/e-books/Four%20Christian%20Perspectives%20on%20Public%20Policy%20Quiz.pdf – for anyone who would like to do some more reading around this topic.
Cobin identifies four basic Christian responses to the State – from the theonomic or theocratic model that David references (which my radical Presbyterian forebears would have embraced, though I do not) to those who respond by withdrawing entirely, like the Amish. He notes how those four responses played out in the various American denominations during the Revolutionary War.
Cobin argues, however, that the predominant Judeo-Christian response has typically been defiance and resistance – the midwives against Pharoah; Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-Nego against King Nebuchadnezzar; the wisemen and John the Baptist against the Herods. Paul was thrown into prison in Ephesus NOT because he was simply preaching the gospel, but primarily because it messed with the economic powers of the time. Folk today that resist the erosion of cultural moral standards are doing nothing different.
I would disagree, and I resent the implication that denying me some basic rights and dignity to live my life constitutes “erosion of cultural standards.” Those are the kind of statements which do not help at all.
Before we expand scripture even further, I have to bow out to get some work done. Didn’t want to “hang up” in your face, but I don’t have time to continue here.
Karen,
I had a very conservative monk tell me once that Christians should refrain from politics when possible, because the more involved they become, the more like the world they become – and we are called to be unlike “the world”.
Folk today that resist the erosion of cultural moral standards are doing nothing different.
What cultural moral standards are you talking about? Whose definition of moral standards are you talking about? I’m not sure what you mean by resistance, but if you mean preaching and education, then I’m all for it. If you mean trying to legislate your beliefs onto those who disagree with you I definitely don’t. Preach, live and educate as you feel you must, but don’t create new laws that only favor your point of view – because we are all neighbors and we are going to have to learn how to co-exist in peace and respect for the other.
BTW – I really like what Wendy Gritter had to say at the Exodus Conference. I think I’m safe in saying I agree with her wholeheartedly. It would be great if Exodus would move in this direction. Heck, I might actually feel like attending a meeting if Exodus moves down this path
I believe that participating in this blog has helped me better understand the strenuous objections of many in the gay community and their sympathizers to the public policy involvements of conservative Christians. Christ’s ministry always focused on individual hearts and never on politics. Public policy is to some extent a system of using the power of the state to coerce the opposed and the undecided. Jesus sought to win people’s hearts.
I am not criticizing believers who engage in public policy. I believe that the Lord can redeem and bless most professions, including political ones. As a citizen of a democratic republic, I even have a responsibility to participate in influencing the government. At the same time, I can see how exerting political influence appears manipulative and ingenuine for Christians. I am sure that in some cases it clearly is manipulative and ingenuine.
I am still processing all of this, so I’m not very firm about my conclusions. I welcome your comments, Karen and Eddy. David, Michael, Timothy and others, thank you for your openness.
David and Jayhuck have both questioned what I mean by this statement … “Folk today that resist the erosion of cultural moral standards are doing nothing different.” So, I’ll make another attempt to be more precise.
There is a solid and Biblically justified Judeo-Christian tradition of defiance and resistance in regard to the State and culture. Many of the people I know who are politically activist in regards to human sexuality issues are motivated by that tradition.
Jayhuck, I’ve already expressed several times previously on this thread that I am personally in favor of Christians trying to impact or shape the culture and State via preaching, teaching, bearing witness, etc. and of mixed mind about direct political action. I don’t want to have to reiterate that again.
Since I am of mixed mind about direct political action, Wendy’s talk and further comments here have given me much to think about. But I found her rationale to be primarily pragmatic and I’m also interested in broader theological/Biblical arguments to help me think it through. Cobin’s above referenced essay was helpful in that aspect.
I’d also like to see some consistency. From several of the responses here, it’s apparently OK for Christians to be involved politically if one agrees with what they’re doing. (I don’t think anyone would oppose William Wilberforce’s actions in England to ban slavery, for example.) And also apparently, it’s OK for Christians to be involved if you don’t care one way or the other – David with environmentalism, for example.
Personal preference and pragmatics aren’t good enough reasons for me.
Yesterday i had the opportunity to preach at a large pentecostal church in a university town. When one has the opportunity to preach and given 40 minutes, you know you can only begin to touch the tip of the iceburg of such a complex and controversial area of ministry. And so I take that opportunity to spend 40 minutes humanizing gay and lesbian people (and my apologies if that sounds patronizing). The reason I need to do this as a core foundation in speaking to a congregation – is because it is SO easy for us to get into our theoretical defensive postures. So, I use powerpoint slides and include photos and ask the people to look at this individual – someone’s daughter, somone’s sister, someone’s son, someone’s brother, someone’s mother or father ….. someone who is loved from before eternity by God. The truth is, conservative Christians are afraid of gay people, they are unsure of how to relate to them. I don’t usually come across outright hateful attitudes (if I’ve been invited to preach – they’re likely beyond that), but I do come across a lot of keeping gay people at arms length …… especially when it comes to children. Let’s face – conservative Christians are terrified to expose their children to anything connected with homosexuality.
Frankly, I think we need a wake-up call.
We live in a society and culture that has recognized that it is unacceptable to demonize, be hateful towards, and mistreat an individual on the basis of their sexual orientation. Praise God for that. The church should have led the charge on that! But instead, in our fear, we are the ones opposing, or we’re seemingly refusing to own our part in the problem (I’m speaking generally here).
I absolutely agree with Timothy – we look terribly unloving … and perceptions are reality regardless of our nuanced understanding of our own hearts and motives.
If Christian parents were educating their children about sexuality – why would they need to be so afraid of what the school may teach? Surely, a parent is going to hold more influence over their children than the school – if they are doing their job. I’m a mom of a 10, 9 and 7 year old ….. I’m the one who speaks with the most influence into the lives of my children regarding sexuality AND the manner in which God calls us to treat all people. I’m the crusader for opposing homophobia in the lives of my children …. so the influence of media, culture etc. is discerned together with them – and they will be well equipped to be respectful and loving to people who are different in multiple ways.
If we are the people of God and have His love and His power – it is incombent upon us to take a leading role in promoting justice and shalom. There is NO shalom in a crime motivated by hate – and we should be outraged by it – not making it a part of the culture war.
If it is the Lord’s kindness that leads to repentance, why are we as Christians so worried about showing kindness?
Again, I’m not speaking specifically to any individual on this blog – but I am speaking to the conservative church at large.
I’m saddened that the conversation here has seemed to take such a confrontational turn of late. Perhaps that is inevitable – but it seems to me to be so much less fruitful. Clearly, there are deeply felt emotions ….. and I want to hear, listen and grow in understanding. Sometimes when we are confrontational I think it has the effect of minimizing those deep responses.
I know I have much to learn ….. I do hope that all the commenters to this point will continue with the conversation. I know some of you have been around this block many times – and have an intuitive sense of where it will end up ….. but there are some newbies in the conversation (some of whom may not have commented at all) and I know it is of value to us …. so please stick with it. I do believe that God is taking some who are willing to a deeper place of listening – and for that I hope that the frustration is worth it.
Thimothy asked:
“Don’t you understand why it is that non-Christians find you horrifying?” Such a sad but appropriate question It is so tragic. The world is supposed to be able to “know that they are Christians by their love.”" But is that what the gay community sees? NOPE. They see the opposite. And, whether it’s true or not, perception is everything.
I want to point back to Wendy’s admonition for EXODUS to deal “humbly and transparently with the preception that we have lied.” She is absolutley right. True or not, that is the perception. And whether conservative Christians really do blame-shift, try to inflame anti-gay prejudice and behave hatefully towards gays, that is the perseption. Don’t you understand…?
I do understand the motive behind your ministry, Wendy (and if I’m right about this, in Canada it seems like legally that’s about as far as you can go with a ministry on this subject) however I would be uncomfertable with kids being exposed to openly ‘gay’ people. From my experiences the ages of birth to around 10 or 11 is way to young to expose a kid to something that mature. I wouldn’t be as concerned about a teenager but up until about 11 I think kids need as innocent of a worldview as we can give them.
Just one part of you post above I was uncomfertable with.
When my best friend and I were attacked by a gang of six angry young men yelling anti-gay slurs — when both of us were beaten — and stabbed in the back without provocation, when Jeffery bled to death from five knife wounds in his back, there were NO letters to the editor from local pastors denouncing the hate crime. No public call for Christian compassion.
With the exception of the “liberal” Congregational church dowtown, no churches raised a flag, or held a prayer vigil or took up a collection for Jeffery’s Mom — who one month later killed herself in her grief,
When Gary died of AIDS, the “conservative” pastor backed out less than an hour before the service because he did not want to officiate at the funeral of a gay person. No one from EXODUS sent a sympathy card or tried to reach out. Instead they pointed self-righteous fingers, sent me letters about the flames of Hell and blogged about how Gary must have cheated on me to have died of AIDS.
Humbly. Transparently. Ask yourself, how does the world see the Church? Does the gay community see a loving Savior with arms outstretched? As my friend, Lisa, likes to say: “They will not know what a friend they have in Jesus — until they know what a friend they have a friend in you.”
Sorry for your experiences but I don’t see why any churches should concern themselves in an issue of crime – unless members of a church where involved.
Nemario: You must be kidding. I suppose you also think that churches in the South should not have spoken out about lynchings? Read the Bible. Its full of references to justice and mercy — and of the responsibility of believers to communicate both of these attributes of God to a dark and wandering world. What would Jesus think of a church that spoke out only when a member of its own congregation was the victim of hatred?
I would guess you would agree that churches should not be involved in politics. Why, then, should they be involved in media? It would be one thing for a pastor to mention it – even “denounce it” – in a sermon, but entirely different to make a publicity stunt.
Nemario,
A gay person is just that …. a person. None of my gay friends have ever done anything inappropriate in front of my children – and they have been “exposed” to them since they were babies. One sga friend was at the birth of two of my children
Clearly, speaking to our children in age appropriate ways is critical …. but if we ever hope to turn the tide of the negative perceptions of the outsiders ….. Christians will need to risk being much more open with their children about godly sexuality and respectful treatment of all people – regardless of their sexual orientation. There may be a time and a place to shelter our children from the world in which we live – but by and large, my approach is to, with discernment and wisdom, teach them how to engage a messy world with the love of God. My children have not lost their innocence because I have been open in instructing and teaching them and giving them the opportunity to learn that all people are valued in God’s eyes – they are growing into servants of Christ, praying for their neighbours, and having eyes wide open to what God is doing in the world.
Regarding your comment about churches not concerning themselves with an issue of crime ….. I’m puzzled by the comment. If a church is to be a transforming presence of Christ in their neighbourhood, then what happens in our neighbourhoods is the concern of the people of God. If we are to be bearers of shalom – and shalom has been disrupted by hatred and violence, then God’s people need to respond. If we are to serve the people around us, so that they will know that “we are Christians by our love” then we actually need to serve and demonstrate that love. Reaching out to a family impacted by violence in our neighbourhoods is a no-brainer to me!
A publicity stunt? Churches saying “In the name of Christ, we, the members of His chruches, stand together — opposed to violence, bigotry and hatred — even against people who happen to have SSA”? That’s a stunt? If so, maybe the church should do more stunts.
It’s not that churches should be involved in media or politics. It’s that churches ought to be involved in proclaiming God’s love, justice and mercy. Otherswise, they should close shop. What good is a church that only preaches to the choir and only shows compassion to its own?
One other quick comment about children….. we receive emails from kids as young as 8 years old …. afraid that they are gay (often because of some minor experience they’ve had) …..
So let’s get real ….. if Christians don’t speak to their kids until age 11 ….. we’re so far behind the 8-ball we’ve relinquished any chance to be the primary voice of influence.
Our children will experience confusion and fear if we are unwilling to push past our own fears to engage them appropriately at early ages.
Perhaps it would depend on the circumstance and size of a town. There have been a couple murders and murder-suicides in my (relatively populated) town recently and in the past few years. There are many churches in my town. Unless they were members of a church, these are cases of law and order.
I just think parents have the right to want to shelter their kids. If people are going to openly declare themselves then they should be willing to deal with the consequence of discerning parents. Obviously this is in very vague terms without any case examples but there’s the general point.
The concern is that in today’s context, when Christian parents fight for their right to shelter their children from sessions that deal with alternative sexual identities, it simply perpetuates the notion that Christians are unwilling to join in the very legitimate process of dismantling harmful homophobic responses.
Personally, and I’m sure there will be those who disagree with me, I simply don’t think this adversarial approach (which I believe is based in fear) is the best manner in which to represent the ministry of Jesus in our world today. I think that Christian parents and leaders willing to risk with godly courage to be proactive in teaching and instructing our children so that they are able to have age appropriate discernment when faced with school based education/media etc. is the most effective and fruitful manner to be an authentic Christian presence in a pluralistic context. There is a Christian manner in which to stand for justice and we need to teach that to our children – not try to run and hide and pretend these issues of injustice do not exist.
I understand the desire to shelter our kids – but I think as parents we need to face our own fears, trust God more, pray more and love more.
This is really disturbing: “If people are going to openly declare themselves then they should be willing to deal with the consequence…”
Translation: Don’t be gay. If you are gay, be miserable. If you’re not miserable, you better shut up — if you know what’s good for you.
It’s all too close to saying, “Oh, well — You get what you deserve” — which is exactly some EXODUS supporters told me when I was attacked and my friend was murdered.
Remind me not to attend Nemario’s church, where apparently (1) only righteous church members seem to deserve public expressions of sympathy or support, (2) where “unless they were members of a church, these are cases of law and order” — and (3) where those who “openly decalre themselves” seem to be fair game for “the consequence” of that honesty.
Wendy, I believe homosexuality is sin, just like lust is sin, just like immoral behavior is sin.
For someone to declare themselves the equivalent of both lust and immoral behavior is, from my experience and worldview, the height of a social problem.
That isn’t “homophobic”, that’s religious, and that – without meaning any offense – is what I mean when I say I don’t want kids exposed to that.
Regardless of the above I sympathize with the last statement in your post.
Nemario: I am gay. That is not the same thing as “someone to declare themselves the equivalent of both lust and immoral behavior.” The love I have for my partner is just that — love — not the “equivalent of lust and immorality:”
And love comes from God. It is caring for another person more than myself. It is neither lust nor immoral. I would never say that all heterosexuals are lustful and immoral. Why would you make that sweeping generalization about homosexuals? Painting all gays with such a broad brush is, in my view, homophobic — whether you can see that or not..
One of the scandals of the gospel is that God so loved the world ….. was willing to suffer and die …. for a world that rebelled against him ….. and is willing to allow people free will and to defy him ….. and every single last human being on earth does so …… some are aware and embracing of the grace and life offered to them in Christ’s death and resurrection ….. some not embracing of that gift. Of those who embrace it …. we’re all sinners. Of those not embracing ….. all sinners.
We may not ‘declare’ our sinfulness ….. but it is on display none-the-less ….. one example: we are a tiny portion of the world’s population holding most of the world’s wealth – while children die of hunger and disease that could have been prevented. Our consumerism alone in North America condemns us ….. so let’s get serious about what our kids are exposed to – a sinful and broken world.
If we say that a person who identifies as gay is the “height of a social problem” without knowing anything about that person ….. wow …… there are many gay and lesbian people who live quiet lives, contributing to their communities. They may well be sinful in aspects of their life – but who is not sinful in aspects of their lives? I’m stunned at the implications of lumping all those who identify as gay into one category – and then making sweeping statements about that group of people.
As many on this blog could attest to, some of my gay friends who my children have interacted with have been amazingly kind, sensitive, delightful people ….. my children haven’t fixated on their sexual orientation – they’ve seen them for the beautiful people they are ….. perhaps we need to learn something from them.
I do believe that same-sex sexual intimacy is not God’s best intention for human beings. And I do not believe that God winks at sin. But I am staggered by my own sin …. and his gracious interaction with me. I cannot comprehend the mysteries of his grace …..
I’ve heard all the arguments about how Christians aren’t really homophobic – because they don’t actually have an irrational fear of homosexual people. Give me a break. Language semantics don’t change the reality that many conservative Christians write-off a group of people because of assumptions about their values and their behaviour. On the other hand, we merrily go along our way justifying unChristlike behaviour towards gay people. This ought not to be.
If we are ever going to actually earn the right to present the gospel to gay and lesbian people (those who do not yet know the Lord), that will require that we have gotten to know them, built a friendship relationship, listened to their story and journey, shared our hearts etc.etc. ….. I want that to start with my kids. I want my kids to befriend other kids are are dealing with gender non-conformity, perhaps confused about their sexual identity ….. I want them to befriend the kids who are being bullied (for whatever reason) ….. because I want them to learn to be like Jesus.
In Jesus we see someone who poured himself out for a sinful world. We are called to imitate him. When we let our fear get in the way of encouraging our kids to do the same …… I believe we sin. God is big enough to protect and reveal himself to our kids. He is big enough to help them discern how to befriend others, including those who are different from themselves, in a way that represents him in all of his grace and truth.
As I look at the context around us – increasingly post-Christian – I simply believe that followers of Jesus have to be a lot more courageous about interacting with “sinners”. Seems to me, that is what Jesus did.
Wendy: I really admire you and the message you bring. You are a delightful breath of rational, loving fresh air. Would God that there were many more like you out there. You say that you wish to build-bridges and I believe you. I would like to join you on that bridge.
Thank you Michael.
I do think there are many followers of Jesus who quietly go about loving and engaging gay and lesbian people in courageous ways. I know many. But they would likely not engage on this kind of blog because so much of it to them would be “duh…. why are we getting sidetracked by this or that when there is a world to serve and love”. I’m so grateful for these quiet, radical, disciples and servants.
I feel very called to my work with New Direction – and to try to expand and enlarge the group of nuanced followers of Jesus who can engage in relational, respectful, relevant and redemptive ways with those questioning, struggling or embracing alternative sexual identities. ….. but I’m grateful there are already so many who do so quietly behind the scenes.
There is still a huge amount of work to be done to undo so much damage over the years ….. as Timothy suggested earlier ….. things continue to happen that perpetuate very negative perceptions of Christians as being anti-gay ….. so I and others have our work cut out for us to be sure. But I’m grateful for your willingness to hear me and to teach me.
I realize there’s nothing more to be said here by me now that my beliefs are “out there” for you to see, however I would like to add that my statements above are taken nearly verbatim from scripture – as well as my experiences with and observations of ‘gay’ people I’ve had to work with and befriend.
Wendy,
Again I am impressed with your wisdom and grace. I hope that you are but one of many. I truly wish “she’s a Christian” would once again be a compliment rather than a warning or an insult and words such as your gives me hope.
Timothy – thanks.
I think it is a compliment that will need to be earned. It isn’t that difficult to be gracious on a blog ….. the proof in the pudding is how we all relate in the personal relationships that God has blessed us with ….. yes, blessed us with …. even the difficult and challenging relationships. That is the challenge ever before me. Even in ministry, sometimes you engage very needy and demanding people – and my ability to truly represent Christ is sorely tested at times as I come face to face with my own impatience, frustration and pride. I’m constantly reminded of how far I have yet to go in becoming more like Jesus.
Grace to all of us – heaven knows we need it.
Wendy,
Thank you for your courage and perseverance. As an ex gay, I feel caught between two worlds. One that cares deeply for gays and one that cares deeply for my beliefs. I often go unnoticed from my past but also suffer quietly at times when I just lack the fight and gusto to speak either to other christians or gays. I hope that your ministry bridges the gap. You will be in my prayers.
Warren–
On behalf of the blog, I’d like to apologize that only Mary responded to your recent thread about the shooting in your hometown. I don’t know how many churches gathered in showing support or made public statements re that tragedy. On the surface, it appears that no one here was interested because it wasn’t gay related.
Wendy–I’m so glad you’re back. Sometimes a weekend here is the ‘deal-breaker’ or ‘thread-breaker’. I appreciated your words and agreed with most. LOL! I do have a habit of going after generalizations though. You said:
I believe that many conservative Christians are afraid but, certainly, not all. I also believe that, for those who are afraid, there are differing reasons for the fear.
Thanks for the encouragement to stick with ‘the conversating’ (I picked that one up from a TV sports interview.) I had gone so far as to disable all my subcriptions for ‘notify me of followup comments’ for the entire site!
Karen–
Thanks for your encouragement too. Much appreciated.
Michael–
You’ve mentioned the pastor who declined to officiate Gary’s funeral before. I keep puzzling over why your own church couldn’t do it. (The single most comforting part about my mom’s funeral was that the officiating priest had real trouble referring to mom as “Elizabeth”…he knew her as “Betty”.)
I went shopping yesterday and had to wait for the bus a block away from the corner where four of my attacks occurred. It was daytime but, it was Sunday…and there wasn’t a lot of foot-traffic. I shifted myself and my bags at least four times in my ten minute wait. Nothing happened. Nothing was even likely to happen. But the memories compel you be in this state of hyper-alertness.
What I feared there, though, was a mugging. I’ve had between six to ten of those. My best friend thinks that I’ve ‘blended” a few of them in my memory because they happened on that same corner. And with a mugging, they only want your cash or goods. There’s usually cuts, bruises, torn clothing but it ends.
Only two of mine were ‘gay bashings’…including the one when I was ‘ex-gay’. That’s a different kind of fear. They don’t want your wallet….they want you. They want to eradicate ‘your kind’ from the face of the earth. In their insanity, they think that they’re doing God a favor; they feel justified for what they do. That’s fear for your life. I’ve been there twice.
Perhaps a dozen years ago, when my gay friend and neighbor, Johnny, was murdered in his home, I was enraged that no one cared. I met with and comforted his family when they came to pack up the house; they were glad to talk to someone who had hung out with him. After a few weeks, the neighborhood was acting like it was ‘old news’ and I kept complaining that it had never become news at all. At about two in the morning, I slipped out the backdoor and walked down the alley until I could see ‘his’ house (They were already going ‘hush, hush’ so as not to scare away a new buyer for the house!) and, in the stillness of the night cried out as loud as I could “Johnny—–We Miss You!”
I’m still that guy. For whatever differences of opinion you and I may have, I’m still that guy.
Ned,
Thank you for your understanding. You did a better job of talking about how Christians tend to impose their beliefs on others than I ever could have. It is something to think about.
Karen,
Folk today that resist the erosion of cultural moral standards are doing nothing different.
I understand what YOU mean by this Karen – at least I think I do now. There are just many Christians who don’t agree with yo – so when you say “folk”, I’m assuming you mean those people who agree with your interpretation of things.
Thank you so much for these words Ned:
Christ’s ministry always focused on individual hearts and never on politics.
Eddy,
nd, the people who I have debated this with (again, primarily Michael and Jayhuck) 1) could never suggest a more suitable term 2) continued to use it themselves.
You are wrong about not being able to suggest a more suitable term – I’ve had this discussion with Warren before and he also doesn’t like the term ex-gay. He has suggested, and I support, the use of the term post-gay. I only use ex-gay on THIS blog and nowhere else because I’m trying to let some people know I’m of the same mind – and usually when I use it I state that I do not like the term,
The term ex-gay no longer has the meaning it might have originally had – due to other conservative Christian groups who have used the term to mean so many different things, or who have used it politically, the term can no longer mean anything – in my opinion – because it has been set up and used to mean so many different things. There are many good people who feel that it needs to be changed and I agree with them – even if post-gay is not the way to go.
I continue to call myself gay, although many ex-gays would define me as ex-gay, and I do this because my orientation is still gay – regardless of whether I have sex or not and regardless of whether I develop some type of OSA.
Eddy,
I suppose the other option, if Exodus decides to keep the label ex-gay, would be to do a much, MUCH better job of defining what it means to its members and to the population at large.
It’s 2 AM and I decided to take a last look at this thread. I’m very glad I did. It’s been a while since I heard someone speak truer words from the Spirit, Wendy. You are a breath of fresh air. What you say encourages a love for God and understanding for the real meaning of grace, the freedom to work out one’s own salvation with Him. And as Timothy said, it makes “she’s a Christian” a good thing again.
I wish I could understand what happened to the Church, at least to a big part of it. God-breathed scripture, in the hands of some, turns into rules as dry as bones, reasons to limit our love, not the great joy and freedom of Salvation. And a resistance to this uninspired religion is actually interpreted as conviction, and love of the world. The real problem is that people are not finding what their spirit requires.
I’m sure you and I do not agree on all points, but that is not necessary. It is quite easy to discern that we serve the same God and that you are not trying to fight me, or coerce me into accepting your terms. God can work in that atmosphere. I’m almost afraid to see what would happen if Exodus took you seriously.
@Ned
You are getting the idea with politics. Besides, an attitude like Wendy’s, one which any of us could have, will do far more for the world than any legislation, policy or boycott. You don’t move mountains with that stuff.
And does anyone find it curious that Wendy’s message is so effective yet her ministry is in a place considered “hostile” toward Christians? I think the church was designed to work best under persecution. It certainly has a lousy history of being in a dominant role of any sort. Yet that’s what we find it striving for in the US today.
Eddy – I usually watch to make sure I’m not making sweeping generalizations …. but you got me.
Of course, I would agree that there are some Christ-followers who are not afraid of gay people and do a good job relating ….. in following comments I make reference to this.
glad you’re back too
Eddy: Gary wanted a minister from Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa to do his service because that is where Gary accepted Christ — so that’s what I arranged. The minister backed out minutes before the service with Gary’s family waiting. There was no time to contact another pastor, but Mel White, founder of Soulforce” and author of Stranger At The Gate”, graciously stepped in and did what Jesus would have done.
Jayhuck writes,
“Karen,
Folk today that resist the erosion of cultural moral standards are doing nothing different.
I understand what YOU mean by this Karen – at least I think I do now. There are just many Christians who don’t agree with yo – so when you say “folk”, I’m assuming you mean those people who agree with your interpretation of things.”
No, Jayhuck, what I am trying to say – obviously poorly – is that almost everyone I know who is politically active in regards to human sexuality issues does so motivated by a Judeo-Christian tradition of defiance or resistance to the State and culture. Conservatives because they think there are forces trying to erode cultural morality; liberals or progressives because they think current policy and law is unjust.
I wanted to address broad theological/Biblical concepts in regard to the State and thereby justify general Christian involvement in public policy and direct political action. I wan’t particularly looking to endorse “my side.” Just happened to use it as an example.
Isn’t it interesting how well Wendy’s message is being received by both sides of this discussion? If EXODUS really wants to build bridges, she would be a good architect. I just pray they won’t wimp out and say — “We are already doing all of that” or “that’s just her opinion” or “changes don’t happen overnight”. Changes can happen overnight, if the “home office” gets the Holy Spirit’s urging. MESSAGE TO EXODUS: Don’t just feel “thrilled” and “do a lot of positive head-nodding”" Step out courageously, as Wendy has done, and do it..
Karen,
But I don’t think trying to legislate your beliefs onto those who do not agree with them is what the Bible teaches us. Jesus certainly didn’t give us this example, and we are constantly reminded NOT to be like the world. If we are going to shape the world successfully it will be through example, education and through grace, NOT through legislation, intimidation and a lack of respect for our neighbor. The best thing Christians can do, in my opinion, is to imitate Christ – at least work at this first.
Wendy,
I agree with Michael. It is amazing and a blessing to watch how your message is being received by both sides – makes me thing there’s something to what you are saying
Michael–
Thanks for the follow up on Gary’s funeral. For many, there is an ongoing bond with that church where we first truly connected with God. I understand Gary’s request and I am glad that Mel White was able to step in. Even if Calvary Chapel does regard homosexual behavior as sin, waiting til the last minute to bail in a situation as emotionally-charged as a funeral is inexcusable.
Speaking of which – did anyone catch Tony Campolo on The Colbert Reprot?
here is the link
http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/player.jhtml?ml_video=149102&ml_collection=&ml_gateway=&ml_gateway_id=&ml_comedian=&ml_runtime=&ml_context=show&ml_origin_url=%2Fmotherload%2Findex.jhtml%3Fml_video%3D149102&ml_playlist=&lnk=&is_large=true
Jayhuck writes … But I don’t think trying to legislate your beliefs onto those who do not agree with them is what the Bible teaches us.
Do you mean that statement universally or only as it applies to sexual morality?
Universally – any discriminatory or specific Christian belief that is forced on others through legislation
Jayhuck and Michael,
I’m sure by now there are likely some who think I must be a heretic if both sides are responding well …..
At times I ask myself, “Am I just being a people pleaser here?”
But I’ve been also immensely blessed to feel like I could speak very openly about the Jesus I love – who I know so many of you deeply love as well. And in the final analysis it is my deep hope that what people on both sides have responded to is precisely the way and ministry of Christ.
Sometimes in this very complex and messy area of ministry we get so easily side-tracked – and perhaps miss his whisper…… “I love you”.
I hear it.
…. and then He smiled…..
Wendy–
You know what this means, don’t you? Please give some thought and prayer to stopping by or hanging out on the blog on occasion. Warren usually provides 3 to 6 topics a week. The thread titles and ‘recently commented’ will tell you where everybody’s hanging out. Even when we’re not posting, most of us do check in to see what’s going on; seeing a post from you would be most welcome.
Wow… again I am humbled and honored to be able to read all of these comments.
Wendy, thank you for speaking Truth into the darkness of misunderstanding, rhetoric, hypocrisy, hurt, ignorance, and anger.
Eddy, Timothy, Michael, David and others, thank you for your willingness to share and be open and transparent about the details of your lives as well as your thoughts and musings.
As someone who has sga but doesn’t identify as lesbian, who gets disgruntled with many “religious” folks (mainly people wielding conservative Christianity around), I am gently reminded many times the the Church that I get frustrated with is the bride of Christ. I also am reminded of the fact that the way is difficult and the gate narrow for those who follow Christ. I don’t know the hearts of people…I can only know them to the extent that it is revealed to me through relationship and communication, and even then I don’t fully grasp another’s heart completely. So who am I to say who is a follower of Christ and who is not. But what I feel confident in saying right now is that many of you on this blog are surely fighting a good fight. Fighting for understanding….fighting for repentant hearts on both sides of the issues at hand… fighting for a knowledge of God that surpasses a mere confession of one’s sins and a nicely packaged prayer of salvation… fighting for the love of Christ to be made real to people (specifically gays and lesbians). That is a fight I want to fight.
Thank you all for encouraging and strengthening my resolve to continue to wrestle with these important issues as I seek the Lord. This has been such a great discussion. Please keep it up.
Thank you for your comments Trista.
Seems to me that God gives wisdom and discernment generously to those who seek it. May you know that in abundant measure – may we all.
The several hours it took me to read thru all this were well worth it. I’ve enjoyed the thought provoking discussion. Thank you all. I believe that to whatever degree I am not living out being a vehicle/vessel of His Love first and foremost, to that extent it becomes less about Him and more about me and what I want and what I’m comfortable with and my prejudices, opinions, desires, wants, comfort zone, judgementalisms, etc. etc etc. And I feel/think/believe that it really needs to be about Him first, for from Him and to Him and through Him and for Him are all things. I’m being changed and it will never be completed in this life, but it will be an ongoing journey of growth, an adventure if you will. The labels don’t fit me because I’m one of a kind, me. And while the Trinity speaks throughout the whole of Scripture, the New Covenant which went into affect when the veil was torn in two, is FAR superior to the old, without question. It Has to be about God living through me, not me trying to live for God; it has to be the Spirit, not the Letter. And I begin to wonder that if an organization (such as Exodus) has two focuses (both personal transformation and societal governance) that that might actually be a double minded unstable thing, and that is a bit of a scary thought. It had never occured to me before reading this long discussion, so thank you for the discussion.
The labels don’t fit me because I’m one of a kind, me.
Ken,
I support you 100% in this statement.
As someone who has sga but doesn’t identify as lesbian
Trista,
I know others who feel the same way and I appreciate what you wrote.
And I’ll support you in the rest Ken, well said.
Hello everyone! My name is Brian and I am Wendy’s Youth Guy and Paduan Apprentice. After hearing her talk about this blog for weeks around the office I thought I would pop online and glance through it, and have been fascinated and touched by the conversation here.
I gotta get in on the big old Wendy love fest and affirm how much I look up to and admire her, and especially love her ability to message things just the right way that gets to the heart of the matter while avoiding all the tripwires of language in this area. I am still learning a great deal from her.
However as her colleague and friend I do humourously view the invites to be architect of Exodus’ new plans and join even more blog threads with certain alarm. Do you have any idea how much this woman works already? Being responsible for our little ministry trying to equip the church is Canada is daunting enough! Mercy!
A couple thoughts about issues raised in this thread out of Wendy’s talks:
1) Language, labels and postmodernism
I think one of the true challenges of postmodernity is communication without fixed definitions. I think the hope of finding terms and labels that will be equally clear and understood and harmless to all people in all contexts should be set aside. The truth is that meanings are inherently contexted. As I speak in youth groups around the country I have been somewhat infamous for introducing myself as “a gay conservative baptist youth pastor who is married to a lesbian”. Perhaps it’s my perverse nature, but I love watching peoples brains melt as they try to wrap their brain around that. But the real reason I use that introduction, is it forces people to confront, in a humourous way I hope, the complexity of language.
I have also had the experience of speaking twice on the same day, and being asked whether I was gay in both of them, and answering “yes” and one, and “no” at the other and being perfectly honest about both. I find that youth, especially non christian youth when they ask me if I am gay want to know about my attractions. Christians, especially adult christians when they ask the same question are inquiring about my sexual behavior, and possibly identity and political affiliations.
I have come to realize that hoping to have one handy phrase that will be equally understood by both audiences is a pipe dream much on the same level as hoping that I could reply to a two questions, one asked in english and one in swahili, by speaking a three sentences in French and hoping to be understood by everyone involved.
What does this mean for the future? I think it means we need to speak carefully, but that we also need to listen carefully. We need to choose our words wisely so that they communicate what we wish, but it also means that we (on all sides) need to listen to context, and believe the best of our counter parts. Often simply the use of a word can be such a flashpoint that we stop listening and start with accusations. I think this blog has been a wonderful example of people taking the time to listen.
I think the move from “ex-gay” to “post-gay” is a step in the right direction, but still hits the fact that most people listening to it won’t immediately grasp what it means. I use Same Sex Attraction all the time, and despite being precise and long, I am amazed by how many Christian leaders, and gay friends both give me blank looks when I use it.
My greatest fear is that post gay will become a new politically correct term, but will carry with it all the negative associations. My youth know that “retarded” is a disrespectful way to talk about those with mental disabilities, and were taught to use phrases like “special” or ” differently abled” the result is now they call each other “Special” and “differently abled” as insults. If we change the name, but nothing else changes, we will end up sitting here in 3 years arguing again over the usage of Post gay, or whatever other label eventually gets picked.
I can also attest to the fact that no matter how much we obsess over nuancing your language some people will misinterpret you. I know as a ministry we spent countless hours working on the language of Freetobeme.com to be as neutral and positive as possible, and have clarified on the site in multiple places very clearly that “We are not saying you should change you orientation! We do not know if changing your orientation is possible!” and yet last week I got an email from a girl who wrote to complain about how hurt she was that our site told her that she had to change!
I think in light of this, those of us in Exodus ministries need to constant keep working to refine our communication processes, because we understand that many of those coming to us are in very vulnerable places, and at times will superimpose their desires on what we say.
But I would ask that others would be patient and understanding with us, and recognize how hard it is. And when unintentional harm happens, to please give us the benefit of the doubt that it is unintentional, and in some cases unavoidable!
I am a person who went to exodus and felt the “If you don’t change there is something wrong with you vibe.” and spent a great deal of time in other places ranting about it. But in full honestly looking back I have to admit that I heard Sy Rogers specifically repeatedly denounce such thinking in the youth sessions. I sat in seminar after seminar that repeated the idea i had to follow God whether my attractions changed or not, and that there were no easy answers, and no guarantees. But I think I tuned those out because I wanted complete change SO BAD! I heard the message I wanted to hear.
Does that mean that everyone who has had negative experiences at exodus does the same thing? NO! But that is part of my story. And I tell it not to minimize the work we need to do (I stand on my seat and cheer for everything that Wendy says in her talk) but to get people thinking of realistic expectations for language, and to beg for a culture of grace, rather than one of suspicion.
2) Politics
I am a firm believer in the idea that exodus needs to get out of politics altogether. I think the intentions were good, but the results were harmful, and only by stepping back and admitting that can we redeem ourselves.
I do not believe that Christians should never be involved in politics. And I do not think that Exodus was acting in bad faith in what they did do.
I think the hate crimes legislations are a good example of what went wrong. I think it is unfair to characterize Exodus as being pro gay bashing because they opposed hate crimes legislation. I think they were going for a good ideal: Fair treatment of all people. I think they also went about it in a very unwise way. I think Exodus’ stand would have been admirable: IF all other things were equal. I think the problem with the opposition to hate crimes legislation was that I failed to recognize the very real inequalities in seeking justice that many gay and lesbian people have. I even heard Christians deny that gay bashing happens much. Which left me to think back to my experience of being dragged behind the gym of my christian school as a teen and being assaulted by a group of other students. I never reported it. It wasn’t until almost ten years later that I could even talk about it. The bruises healed fast, but inside the scars have stayed a long time.
To say that “assault is wrong, and it is equally wrong for all people” did not recognize for me the reality that because I was being beat up for being gay I felt I had no one to turn to, because even going for help would leave me open for more violence! And unless I know the system understood that, I couldn’t go to it. I might have been equally valuable under the law, but I was not equally vulnerable. And having those in power recognize that vulnerability, and take steps to help me…it would have meant alot.
I don’t think hate crimes legislations are the answers to homophobia…but I deeply grieve fighting hate crimes legislations, even with the best of intentions, reinforced the denial of and silence about the very real threats of violence that the kids I work with deal with every day. And while I understand some of the concerns that Christian groups, including Exodus voiced in the matter, I think the blocked flawed legislation that tired to help, without offering an alternative. This was destruction rather than constructive.
Like I said i think the best course now is to step back from politics all together. But Christians still need to be involved in politics. But one guide we need to follow is that if we oppose a policy, we need to listen to what is behind it, and offer constructive ways to get the good results sought another way rather than just shutting things down.
I had some more thoughts, but it is late, and I think I have said enough. Thanks for letting the young’un have his say amongst such a wise group of thinkers.
Brian,
Thank you for such a thoughtful and inspiring post – I found myself learning about things I thought I already knew so much about. I pray you can be a mentor to many. Please keep posting when you can.
Ken and Brian,
Thank you both for your words. As a fellow Christian, I disagree with you about Hate Crime Legislation Brian, but overall, we agree on much more than we disagree