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	<title>Comments on: Psychoanalytic theory and the etiology of homosexuality: What does research say?</title>
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	<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/11/28/psychoanalytic-theory-and-the-etiology-of-homosexuality-what-does-research-say/</link>
	<description>A College Psychology Professor&#039;s Observations About Public Policy, Mental Health, Sexual Identity, and Religious Issues</description>
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		<title>By: Lynn David</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/11/28/psychoanalytic-theory-and-the-etiology-of-homosexuality-what-does-research-say/comment-page-1/#comment-122030</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynn David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 20:26:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/11/28/psychoanalytic-theory-and-the-etiology-of-homosexuality-what-does-research-say/#comment-122030</guid>
		<description>I came here only after Dr T  referenced this post in a more recent post (22Aug2008) and read Drowssap&#039;s post &lt;a href=&quot;http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/11/28/psychoanalytic-theory-and-the-etiology-of-homosexuality-what-does-research-say/#comment-68289&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;#68289&lt;/a&gt;.  I&#039;d like to clear something up, I had a great and loving family life.   I could not have asked for any two better parents.   My father was neither distant nor cold but warm and even affectionate with me (appropriately so to stop any thoughts to the contrary).   At the same time the he imparted the requisite &quot;manly skills&quot; to me by sharing his work (in construction) and play (fishing, hunting and even boxing), and I gladly/happily shared in them.   Drowssap is perhaps remembering some talk on here about some of the physical attacks on my person from others when I was in my early teens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I came here only after Dr T  referenced this post in a more recent post (22Aug2008) and read Drowssap&#8217;s post <a href="http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/11/28/psychoanalytic-theory-and-the-etiology-of-homosexuality-what-does-research-say/#comment-68289" rel="nofollow">#68289</a>.  I&#8217;d like to clear something up, I had a great and loving family life.   I could not have asked for any two better parents.   My father was neither distant nor cold but warm and even affectionate with me (appropriately so to stop any thoughts to the contrary).   At the same time the he imparted the requisite &#8220;manly skills&#8221; to me by sharing his work (in construction) and play (fishing, hunting and even boxing), and I gladly/happily shared in them.   Drowssap is perhaps remembering some talk on here about some of the physical attacks on my person from others when I was in my early teens.</p>
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		<title>By: Ann</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/11/28/psychoanalytic-theory-and-the-etiology-of-homosexuality-what-does-research-say/comment-page-1/#comment-69257</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 17:46:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/11/28/psychoanalytic-theory-and-the-etiology-of-homosexuality-what-does-research-say/#comment-69257</guid>
		<description>Thank you very much for the detailed explanation of the word &quot;science&quot; - I understand the meaning of it better now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you very much for the detailed explanation of the word &#8220;science&#8221; &#8211; I understand the meaning of it better now.</p>
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		<title>By: ken</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/11/28/psychoanalytic-theory-and-the-etiology-of-homosexuality-what-does-research-say/comment-page-1/#comment-69210</link>
		<dc:creator>ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 06:46:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/11/28/psychoanalytic-theory-and-the-etiology-of-homosexuality-what-does-research-say/#comment-69210</guid>
		<description>Ann asked in post 69071:

&lt;i&gt;When the word “science” is used in reference to validating or invalidating certain facts regarding homosexuality - what exactly does the word mean?&lt;/i&gt;

Science means &quot;the study of nature.&quot; 

&lt;i&gt;Is it medical, biology, research, psychology, surveys, etc.?&lt;/i&gt;

Depends on the context. 

&lt;i&gt;and if so, who determines what individual or individuals are selected?&lt;/i&gt;

The person in charge of the research.  Although, he or she may delegate that task to someone else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ann asked in post 69071:</p>
<p><i>When the word “science” is used in reference to validating or invalidating certain facts regarding homosexuality &#8211; what exactly does the word mean?</i></p>
<p>Science means &#8220;the study of nature.&#8221; </p>
<p><i>Is it medical, biology, research, psychology, surveys, etc.?</i></p>
<p>Depends on the context. </p>
<p><i>and if so, who determines what individual or individuals are selected?</i></p>
<p>The person in charge of the research.  Although, he or she may delegate that task to someone else.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/11/28/psychoanalytic-theory-and-the-etiology-of-homosexuality-what-does-research-say/comment-page-1/#comment-69207</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 06:32:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>ugh.. the REALM of guessing

Ann,

I hope that helped clarify</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ugh.. the REALM of guessing</p>
<p>Ann,</p>
<p>I hope that helped clarify</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/11/28/psychoanalytic-theory-and-the-etiology-of-homosexuality-what-does-research-say/comment-page-1/#comment-69206</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 06:29:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/11/28/psychoanalytic-theory-and-the-etiology-of-homosexuality-what-does-research-say/#comment-69206</guid>
		<description>Ann,

&quot;Science&quot; generally means knowledge based on systematic observation.  It must be both observable and empirical (ie testable).  All the different branches you listed can fall under this category.

Some sciences are more exact than others.  For example, we can accurately measure the temperature at which water boils.  Every gallon of water, every time.  Other are less exact and can only be discussed in terms of averages.

When &quot;science&quot; is used in terms of homosexuality, what that generally refers to is some sort of study of a sample of homosexual people - generally with a control group of heterosexual people - and an observation of characteristics.

Sometimes these are soft science studies - such as measurement of expressed attractions - and sometimes these are hard science studies - such as a measured response of brain size or activation.  Even in the hard science studies, because we are dealing with human responses and issues of identity and self-determination of attractions, such studies have to be weighed carefully.

Ultimately, one cannot say that &quot;science says&quot; anything about homosexuality until studies have been replicated with similar results.  But with enough repetition of results, some conclusions can be drawn.

Thus we can say pretty clearly that gay persons are more likely to be lefthanded than are straight persons, on average.  Not a very exact statement, but measurable, repeatable, and statistically significant.

On the other hand, some observations are seen that may not be readily repeated.  Much of the &quot;gay gene&quot; studies have suffered from inconclusive follow up studies.

Others seem to raise their heads from time to time but are not conclusive one way or another.  The fraternal order effect would be one of those.

For inconclusive studies, or those not yet repeated, one might say &quot;science suggests&quot;.

And others are based on methods so shoddy that they are laughable.  They are &quot;studies&quot; comparable to determining the country&#039;s favorite ice cream by asking your own kids.  Paul Cameron&#039;s &quot;research&quot; all falls into that category.

But nonetheless, the inclusion of &quot;science&quot; is a valuable distinction.  It is what takes the opinion out of the real of guessing and holds it up to light.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ann,</p>
<p>&#8220;Science&#8221; generally means knowledge based on systematic observation.  It must be both observable and empirical (ie testable).  All the different branches you listed can fall under this category.</p>
<p>Some sciences are more exact than others.  For example, we can accurately measure the temperature at which water boils.  Every gallon of water, every time.  Other are less exact and can only be discussed in terms of averages.</p>
<p>When &#8220;science&#8221; is used in terms of homosexuality, what that generally refers to is some sort of study of a sample of homosexual people &#8211; generally with a control group of heterosexual people &#8211; and an observation of characteristics.</p>
<p>Sometimes these are soft science studies &#8211; such as measurement of expressed attractions &#8211; and sometimes these are hard science studies &#8211; such as a measured response of brain size or activation.  Even in the hard science studies, because we are dealing with human responses and issues of identity and self-determination of attractions, such studies have to be weighed carefully.</p>
<p>Ultimately, one cannot say that &#8220;science says&#8221; anything about homosexuality until studies have been replicated with similar results.  But with enough repetition of results, some conclusions can be drawn.</p>
<p>Thus we can say pretty clearly that gay persons are more likely to be lefthanded than are straight persons, on average.  Not a very exact statement, but measurable, repeatable, and statistically significant.</p>
<p>On the other hand, some observations are seen that may not be readily repeated.  Much of the &#8220;gay gene&#8221; studies have suffered from inconclusive follow up studies.</p>
<p>Others seem to raise their heads from time to time but are not conclusive one way or another.  The fraternal order effect would be one of those.</p>
<p>For inconclusive studies, or those not yet repeated, one might say &#8220;science suggests&#8221;.</p>
<p>And others are based on methods so shoddy that they are laughable.  They are &#8220;studies&#8221; comparable to determining the country&#8217;s favorite ice cream by asking your own kids.  Paul Cameron&#8217;s &#8220;research&#8221; all falls into that category.</p>
<p>But nonetheless, the inclusion of &#8220;science&#8221; is a valuable distinction.  It is what takes the opinion out of the real of guessing and holds it up to light.</p>
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		<title>By: Evan</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/11/28/psychoanalytic-theory-and-the-etiology-of-homosexuality-what-does-research-say/comment-page-1/#comment-69189</link>
		<dc:creator>Evan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 03:05:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/11/28/psychoanalytic-theory-and-the-etiology-of-homosexuality-what-does-research-say/#comment-69189</guid>
		<description>Even if the gene is present in one&#039;s genotype, that does not mean it will be expressed; we already knew that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even if the gene is present in one&#8217;s genotype, that does not mean it will be expressed; we already knew that.</p>
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		<title>By: Drowssap</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/11/28/psychoanalytic-theory-and-the-etiology-of-homosexuality-what-does-research-say/comment-page-1/#comment-69182</link>
		<dc:creator>Drowssap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 02:11:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/11/28/psychoanalytic-theory-and-the-etiology-of-homosexuality-what-does-research-say/#comment-69182</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;jayhuck&lt;/b&gt;

&lt;em&gt;If you read enough Ex-Gay literature you will find that nearly all of it is trying to support an environmental cause for homosexuality&lt;/em&gt;

To be totally honest I&#039;ve never read any ex-gay literatature.  As for Narth I know their website and they promote the psychoanalytic model.  Socialization falls into the realm of environment so I suppose that does qualify.  But that&#039;s not what I&#039;m refering too.  I mean biological environment.

I do check the Narth site every few weeks just to see if/when research comes out.  Usually they disagree with it but at least I know it&#039;s out there so I can google it.  8-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>jayhuck</b></p>
<p><em>If you read enough Ex-Gay literature you will find that nearly all of it is trying to support an environmental cause for homosexuality</em></p>
<p>To be totally honest I&#8217;ve never read any ex-gay literatature.  As for Narth I know their website and they promote the psychoanalytic model.  Socialization falls into the realm of environment so I suppose that does qualify.  But that&#8217;s not what I&#8217;m refering too.  I mean biological environment.</p>
<p>I do check the Narth site every few weeks just to see if/when research comes out.  Usually they disagree with it but at least I know it&#8217;s out there so I can google it.  <img src='http://wthrockmorton.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif' alt='8-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Ann</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/11/28/psychoanalytic-theory-and-the-etiology-of-homosexuality-what-does-research-say/comment-page-1/#comment-69077</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:19:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>it would be interesting to see what happens with surogates as well - the embryo is exposed to a completely different environment in the womb.  In past years the egg was usually from the surogate and the sperm from the genetic and participating father.  Now couples can use their own eggs and sperm and a surogate to carry the baby or babies.  That introduces a whole other environment.  Also, another consideration with twins is that they can either have one placenta providing nutrients to both babies or each baby can have their own placenta providing the nutrients - adding another exposure to what they receive in the womb.  I really do not know anything about the medical or science aspect of post conception but these are some things they might want to be considered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>it would be interesting to see what happens with surogates as well &#8211; the embryo is exposed to a completely different environment in the womb.  In past years the egg was usually from the surogate and the sperm from the genetic and participating father.  Now couples can use their own eggs and sperm and a surogate to carry the baby or babies.  That introduces a whole other environment.  Also, another consideration with twins is that they can either have one placenta providing nutrients to both babies or each baby can have their own placenta providing the nutrients &#8211; adding another exposure to what they receive in the womb.  I really do not know anything about the medical or science aspect of post conception but these are some things they might want to be considered.</p>
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		<title>By: Ann</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/11/28/psychoanalytic-theory-and-the-etiology-of-homosexuality-what-does-research-say/comment-page-1/#comment-69071</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:10:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/11/28/psychoanalytic-theory-and-the-etiology-of-homosexuality-what-does-research-say/#comment-69071</guid>
		<description>When the word “science” is used in reference to validating or invalidating certain facts regarding homosexuality - what exactly does the word mean? Is it medical, biology, research, psychology, surveys, etc.?, and if so, who determines what individual or individuals are selected? I have only read/heard that people from ministries or ex-ex-gay groups are the ones involved and that the nature of the science or research are are surveys. Is this what is meant by “science?”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When the word “science” is used in reference to validating or invalidating certain facts regarding homosexuality &#8211; what exactly does the word mean? Is it medical, biology, research, psychology, surveys, etc.?, and if so, who determines what individual or individuals are selected? I have only read/heard that people from ministries or ex-ex-gay groups are the ones involved and that the nature of the science or research are are surveys. Is this what is meant by “science?”</p>
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		<title>By: jayhuck</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/11/28/psychoanalytic-theory-and-the-etiology-of-homosexuality-what-does-research-say/comment-page-1/#comment-69069</link>
		<dc:creator>jayhuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 15:28:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/11/28/psychoanalytic-theory-and-the-etiology-of-homosexuality-what-does-research-say/#comment-69069</guid>
		<description>Gary,

&lt;i&gt;This might partially explain the reasons why a homosexual person may have had great parents but grandparents and great grandparents who suffered greatly.&lt;/i&gt;

Is there any evidence to suggest that most or all gay people had grandparents and great grandparents who &quot;suffered greatly&quot;?  I&#039;ve never seen any myself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gary,</p>
<p><i>This might partially explain the reasons why a homosexual person may have had great parents but grandparents and great grandparents who suffered greatly.</i></p>
<p>Is there any evidence to suggest that most or all gay people had grandparents and great grandparents who &#8220;suffered greatly&#8221;?  I&#8217;ve never seen any myself.</p>
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