Robert Epstein, a frequent commentator on sexuality issues, reports in advance of his Scientific American online survey of 18,000 people regarding precision in defining sexual orientation. He says,
Although common thinking holds that everyone is either “gay” or “straight,” my new survey of nearly 18,000 people who voluntarily answered an online quiz shows that these terms are highly misleading. Sexual orientation actually lies on a smooth continuum, and the way people state their orientation is often a poor predictor of their true sexual behaviors and fantasies. Someone can call himself “gay” but behave “straight,” and vice versa.
Looking forward to his findings…
Mary said in post 67320:
Timothy,
When you have walked in my shoes – then I suppose you can comment on my experiences.
He wasn’t commenting on your experiences. He was saying you are wrong to brand all gays as intolerant because you have met some that are. That is no better than claiming christians are intolerant because of the likes of Fred Phelps or James Dobson.
Besides, the likelihood he would ever be able to develop OSA with someone is very low – even by ex-gay standards.
Jayhuck,
No one, including you, has the right to make this kind of determination about someone else and their life and their future.
However, when straight men have the same problems, no one attributes the problems to the men being straight. What sort of message do you think such attitudes send about your opinion of gays?
Ken,
Perhaps that is because most people have not sought help for unwanted heterosexual attractions so being heterosexual is not considered an unwanted condition that is attached to another condition. I’m not sure what message you “think” Evan is sending regarding “such attitudes” and “opinions” about “gays” but I appeal to you not to think the worst – it seems when one is scrutinizing another looking for fault, they will find it one way or another. You do not have to fall into this trap as others have.
Thanks for your replies, Ken and Jayhuck. I did not imply he could change his orientation, I am aware that he is hardly just confused about what he practiced for more than three decades. But what baffles me is that he wants to quit his gay life. I jumped in the discussion with the story of my friend after I found some people here mentioning other examples of personal friends who left gay life.
I agree with the suggestions made here, actually I too told him to seek counselling for sexual addiction, but he keeps saying that his problem is not with too much sex, that his record is a lot lower than the number of partners his gay friends have on one night, but he feels empty and unfulfilled after all that is over.
I have to admit my bias here, I don’t know much about gay life so I may not have the same background to understand some insider contexts from the gay community. I agree that sexual addiction is not orientation-specific, but the problem with this friend of mine is that, as he says, reducing his sexual activity will not alleviate his nagging feelings of emptiness and loneliness after living that for decades. Taking into account that he obviously is not your probable candidate for sexual confusion and therapy for that, I wonder what are his chances to get out of the gay life, as he wants to.
Please don’t get me wrong, but all my efforts to convince him to try first to address his issues as unspecific to his orientation were lost on him. He seems to be pretty intractable in his decision to quit gay life. I think I told you that he doesn’t picture himself with a woman on any account, in fact he says no woman would take a fancy to him. What can this guy do? Do you recall any such instance of a person who wanted to leave gay life behind after living it for many years? What did they eventually do, how did they regain their balance between their objectives and their condition?
Evan,
It sounds like your friend has given his experiences alot of consideration. Alot of gay people just like straight people have sexual addictions – it seems more so among men in general but I don’t know the stats. Anyhow, there are many therapists that work with sexual addictions and sexual issues and sometimes the outcome is that someone remains gay and sometimes they find that being gay was a response to poor experiences and poor interpretations of events. Some people grow away from being gay while some grow into it. As a person who has gone through changing from gay to straight – I can say my view on sexuality has changed tremendously and deepened into a better understanding of myself and what I seek in a partner.
Evan –
From your above post, it seems your friend has some things he needs to discuss with a therapist who is unbiased and knowledgeable.
I’m sure you’ve gotten many responses from many different angles. As you seem aware, his therapeutic journey might lead him on a number of paths.
As someone who is leading a happy, committed christian life in a same-sex marriage, I hope that he understands that loneliness is not the only resolution of being gay. Also, I hope he realizes that the “gay lifestyle,” is as broad a term as the “heterosexual lifestyle.” There are people who lead promiscuous, lonely, empty lives across the spectrum. How you choose to lead the life you lead, is as individual as the person themselves. I hope he can discover a more fulfilling way to lead his life – for his own sake, and his own happiness.
Evan,
It seems that your friend not only has misanalyzed his own problem but that he is justifying his notions as well. I can assure you that very very very very few gay people have at least one sexual experience per night. And if he thinks that his experiences are fewer than his friends, than he is running in a rather distinct crowd.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and make a guess. This sort of behavior is often closely associated with drug abuse, especially crystal methamphetamine. That drug also severely impacts judgment and paranoia – along with a feeling of emptiness.
This insistence that he knows his solution and that it isn’t dealing with his sexual addictions suggests to me that meth is probably involved. I’ve seen that kind of thinking before.
I would recommend the following:
1. he deal with any substance abuse issues.
2. he deal with his sexual addiction issues
His chances of reorientation are historically and statistically miniscule. But if he doesn’t deal with those two issues, they are non-existant.
@Jag
You seem to have found some balance in your own life. This is so different from what this friend told me about the goings-on in the gay community. He told me that rejection is even greater among the community, because gay people tend to be very critical about a possible partner’s appearance. I told him I heard some people found partners for longer periods of time but he replied that in all of his 30 years of gay life never met such a case. Perhaps you could give him some advice, I don’t know how things work for gay people. If you are willing to do that, you can communicate your email address to my address (great.of.specialer@gmail.com) and I will tell him about your success in committing with a partner when I’ll see him online. Maybe you can give him some hope. Thanks.
@Timothy
Again, what you say here is very different from what other people from the gay community told me. This friend I mentioned before told me that he knows boys who have as much as 4-5 partners a night, something that left me stunned, because I never heard of such records in the heterosexual world. Obviously things can get distorted if you make judgements based on some individual experiences. But I very much doubt it is possible to ascertain this objectively, other than based on self-reports.
I’m pretty positive that he doesn’t take any substance. I mean, the guy doesn’t even smoke! I too think that he presents any effort to reorientation as difficult as it could possibly be, but he does not set himself very high objectives, probably because he knows what his chances are. This apparent contradiction in his case really taught me how far we are from understanding the interplay between human motivation and feelings in sexual issues. Right now, it really looks like we’re still working on finding the right vocabulary, and so much less on dealing with things.
Ann said in post 67329:
Perhaps that is because most people have not sought help for unwanted heterosexual attractions so being heterosexual is not considered an unwanted condition that is attached to another condition.
Are you seriously trying to make the argument that people associate sexual disorders with being gay but not with being straight because some gays want to change their orientation but straights don’t? That is an interesting dance around the elephant in the room.
Evan,
As long as I have been out I’ve never heard of anyone I know having as many as 4 or 5 partners a night – or even anything close to that. There may be some people gay and straight who go to places and are able to do this – but it is not common for either orientation.
Evan,
Simply because your friend is gay, doesn’t make him an expert on gays. From your description, it sounds like the only other gay men he has encountered have been through random hookups in clubs or online. At best he has only been exposed to a limited sub-culture. If you wish to find examples of long-term gay relationships then you could simply do a little research on the topic of gay marriage.
I think you need to talk with your friend to determine exactly what he wants. Perhaps even suggesting he might want to talk to a therapist to help him sort out what it is he is really looking for.
Are you seriously trying to make the argument that people associate sexual disorders with being gay but not with being straight because some gays want to change their orientation but straights don’t? That is an interesting dance around the elephant in the room.
Ken,
No, I am not trying to make that argument at all.
Ann said in post 67563:
No, I am not trying to make that argument at all.
Well, perhaps you can elaborate on what you were trying to say then.
Well, perhaps you can elaborate on what you were trying to say then.
Ken,
Perhaps I can but I won’t – I was very clear on what I said and you can re-read it and the posts prior to it, and if you still want to make critical assumptions then please don’t worry about understanding it.
Ann said in post 67617:
Perhaps I can but I won’t – I was very clear on what I said and you can re-read it and the posts prior to it, and if you still want to make critical assumptions then please don’t worry about understanding it.
You accuse me of making assumptions, yet when I ask you to clarify what you mean you refuse.
To me it seemed like you where supporting a double standard, where it is okay to just assume a gay man’s problems are due to his orientation, but a straight man with the same problems must have other reasons.
Ken,
I think if we go back to Evan’s friend’s assesment of himself we will find an indication that he thinks his sexual addiction and gay behavior are related. Think of this – he could be right about himself – instead of us talking heads making assumptions.
Ken,
I have no control over your perceptions and how they become your assumptions. I believe I answered your question in that post by saying that your assumptions were incorrect. In your next post you did not ask me to clarify anything – you said “well perhaps you can elaborate on what you were trying to say then” – there is a difference and I felt no further elaboration was necessary. Any further clarification can be obtained by re-reading my post and the prior posts leading up to it. I know you want to believe I said one thing but I can assure you that is not true.
Ann,
Thank you for the comments. I see so many people saying the changing is slim to none and that the advice is to gvie up before even starting. We can’t say that to a person. How unfair and selfish. They have every right to seek out those who have and learn what has been succesful and what isn’t. They also have every right to try for the slim success that others also achieve.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is more than enough to break the bonds of any sin.
Don
Ann said in post 67757:
I believe I answered your question in that post by saying that your assumptions were incorrect. In your next post you did not ask me to clarify anything – you said “well perhaps you can elaborate on what you were trying to say then” -
My comment about you elaborating was me asking you to clarify what you said.
Any further clarification can be obtained by re-reading my post and the prior posts leading up to it.
I have read it, several times. to recap: I commented about the double standard in how sexual problems are viewed differently for straight and gay men. A double standard I believe to be based on prejudice and bigotry towards gays. Your reply appeared (to me at least) to be justifying that double standard (and implicitly the prejudices behind it). I’ve re-read it several times, and it still appears to be justifying that double standard.
Mary said in post 67763:
I see so many people saying the changing is slim to none and that the advice is to gvie up before even starting.
From what research into the topic shows, successful therapy to change from being gay to being straight is rare if it occurs at all. Therapy to deal with sexual addiction I believe has a much greater (and better documented) success rate. Additionally, no one in this thread has advised anyone to give up.
They have every right to seek out those who have and learn what has been succesful and what isn’t. They also have every right to try for the slim success that others also achieve.
Do they also not have the right to know that it is possible to live a happy life as a gay person as well? Why is it you never seem to consider that as an option Mary?
I do consider it as an option – please read my posts completely.
Also, I am one of the few who also sees change as an option and continue to put that option out there.
This is a very important question, one that had me thinking a few times. Why is it that people prefer to live a life of struggle instead of a life of enjoyment? Religious belief? — Maybe, though not in all. Social pressure? — Well, it’s no more the case as it used to be some decades ago; actually social pressure is beginning to mount from the gay-affirming stance. Folks expectations? — That could be a good reason for any person, regardless of culture or religious background; but a number of strugglers do not start families, come from liberal families or live fairly independent.
I’d really want to see a research into the motives of SSAs strugglers, one conducted by an independent body of research. I expect that it would still miss essential motives, since strugglers include ex-gays, just as people who practice same-sex behaviour include gays. To round the point, to reach all of them you’d have to get beyond activists, which is even less than self-identified categories.
Your reply appeared (to me at least) to be justifying that double standard (and implicitly the prejudices behind it). I’ve re-read it several times, and it still appears to be justifying that double standard.
Ken,
Ok, I can do nothing about how you perceive things or the assumptions that come from those perceptions. Thanks for re-reading the posts.
Do they also not have the right to know that it is possible to live a happy life as a gay person as well?
Ken,
Every person deserves the right to know they can live a happy life as a gay person IF that is what they want. The people we are referring to are those who DON’T want to live as a gay person or be defined by their unwanted same gender attractions. There is a big difference.
Mary,
Is it better to accept who you are and find happiness with someone you are naturally attracted to, or is it better to spend years or even decades struggling to change a part of yourself – without any guarantee of success, because you’re unhappy with it. I know this will depend a great deal on a person’s values – but I can’t help in some cases wonder why I would put myself through all of that.
And why does no one talk about celibacy? It seems as if it always has to be sex/romance with one group or the other – as if marriage and relationships are things we deserve or feel we must have to make us complete.
If the gospel was enough to cause supernatural change in first century Corinth, why not 21 century America?
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (NASB) “Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
nor thieves, nor coveteous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kinkdom of God.
And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.”
“Were” is past tense, sounds like change to me!
Don
Don – The change here does not of necessity mean from the desire to pursue action. We will have considerable debate about whether arsenokoite means homosexual or not on this blog, if we ever have a post on that topic (we don’t so don’t even think about it). In the mean time, assuming the word here means someone who is engaging in homosexual behavior, change would mean that a person has a change of perspective toward that behavior. It does not of necessity mean a change in desire. For instance, fornicator refers to someone who engages generally in sexual sin. However, a Christian may still experience sexual desire toward an ineligible person and still be a Christian. What change refers to in our discussions here primarily refers to desire. I do not believe that such change occurs frequently in an absolute manner. I am not sure anyone else commenting here does either.
Let me say generally to all. Much of what we fuss over here is a matter of degrees. We all believe people should be free to live by the dictates of their conscience as informed by their faith. We all believe that some level of change in sexual behavior and identity is possible. I am pretty sure we all believe that change in desire is theoretically possible. What we often disagree about is the frequency of that change.
That sounds like a blog post waiting to happen…
Ken, Mary, Evan –
I see your points. I have been thinking more on this topic as of late. Ken brought up a topic that Evan further discussed:
“Do they also not have the right to know that it is possible to live a happy life as a gay person as well?”
On the blog, we know the research…it’s pretty slim to reach a state where most would consider there to be any true shift in orientation (Warren, we don’t disagree on the frequency – we look at the research, it speaks for itself), and even then, many defend the right of people to pursue it.
It got me to wondering, as Evan so mentioned, “Why is it that people prefer to live a life of struggle instead of a life of enjoyment?,” and really examining the reasons why individuals choose to go against their inclination.
Many christian counselors and churches see homosexuality as an inherently immoral way of living. I’m sure that this has some spillover unto its congregants or people in general who share their beliefs (America is a largely Christian nation). It is no mystery why many programs who practice these types of therapy have a religious basis, are funded by religious organizations or have books written by religious groups. There also isn’t always the scientific rigor applied to many of these, or honesty. They often run like a business, and many can be mislead into believing things that simply are not true. Things about people who are gay, the “gay lifestyle” (which, being married to another woman, I’m still looking for), and what will theoretically happen if you remain gay – both to you physically (disease, etc..) or that your soul may somehow be in jeopardy.
Personally, coming from a conservative family, going to a Christian college, and never losing my christian values, I thank God I wasn’t exposed to much of this rhetoric – it’s often persecutory, shaming and downright wrong.
I never wanted to change, and thank God I am the person I am. I’d never have the life I have without being honest with myself and living true to my own nature. I live a christian life like any other, and I pray always that others who struggle – for whatever reason – can find a way to be true to themselves as well. Whatever that means for them….I just hope that it is authenticity, and not the external or innoculated pressures of others.
Warren said in post 68003:
I am pretty sure we all believe that change in desire is theoretically possible. What we often disagree about is the frequency of that change.
People also disagree about the degree and persistence of change as well.
Warren,
However, a Christian may still experience sexual desire toward an ineligible person and still be a Christian.
Is this YOUR idea of a Christian or mine? What is an ineligible person? I understand your belief system, but this smacks of a low blow to gay Christians who do pray, who do go to church but who also live in committed relationships/marriages to others of the same sex.
I DO agree that sexual behavior can change – that has been proven. I don’t believe that desire can change in the sense that we go from one extreme to the other. I believe that people fall along a sexuality spectrum and that it is theoretically possible to help a person focus on their bisexual nature – assuming it is strong enough/they fall along a particular place on the spectrum – but I don’t believe people change in the sense of developing brand new desires that they’ve never had.
I also think its important to note AGAIN that having OSA, being married to someone of the opposite sex, being in a relationship with someone of the opposite sex, etc… NONE of these things makes a person good or holy or righteous. I’m sure I’ve beaten that point into the ground, but I thought it worth repeating at least one more time
And why does no one talk about celibacy? It seems as if it always has to be sex/romance with one group or the other – as if marriage and relationships are things we deserve or feel we must have to make us complete.
Jayhuck,
I’m with you all the way on this – this is a very important and substantive point worthy of discussion.
Ann said in post 67927:
Ok, I can do nothing about how you perceive things or the assumptions that come from those perceptions.
You could elaborate on what you are saying. Attempt to clarify what you meant to say. Be aware that your statements may not be as clearly expressed as you think they are. Not assume that someone asking for a clarification is attacking you.
Ann said in post 67935:
Every person deserves the right to know they can live a happy life as a gay person IF that is what they want. The people we are referring to are those who DON’T want to live as a gay person or be defined by their unwanted same gender attractions. There is a big difference.
Except you are assuming the people you are referring to know it is possible to have a happy life as a gay person. That is a significant assumption and one I don’t believe true all that often. Not with the christian right screaming “INDOCTRINATION” and “AGENDA” anytime a school tries to tell children about gay couples and families. Not with states passing constitutional amendments denying gay couples marriage using claims that their relationships aren’t anything like marriage to justify them. Simply because the US doesn’t arrest people for being gay anymore, doesn’t mean there isn’t a lot of misinformation and bigotry towards gays.
Except you are assuming the people you are referring to know it is possible to have a happy life as a gay person. That is a significant assumption and one I don’t believe true all that often.
Ken,
Did I say this or is this you assuming what you think I am assuming? Please be careful with how you perceive what I say and then the assumptions you make that follow. You took a very simple statement I made that “clarified” my perspective that gay people deserve to live a happy life and turned it into a platform to make assumptions about me and attack things I never brought up. Very uncool.
Warren
I am pretty sure we all believe that change in desire is theoretically possible.
Ya know, I would have definitely agreed with this before I read Jones & Yarhouse. Now I am less convinced that change in desire is possible to any significant degree. I’m not willing to claim that it is not (and thus I guess I can agree with the “theoretically” part) but I have higher levels of doubt.
Jag and other people,
I don’t dispute the fact that many SSAs strugglers are religiously motivated, or that sometimes that is being ‘run like a business’ by all sorts of Christian organisations. However, I’m writing from Europe here, in a country where same-sex marriage is legally recognised — Belgium — and the social climate is very gay-friendly (the Netherlands is just past the border), where society is largely secular and familial pathos is a lot colder than in the States or in the South of Europe.
I have many friends, from various European countries, who struggle with their unwanted attractions, some of them are religious, others are not. That friend I mentioned in a couple of posts here, who led a gay life for more than 30 years, actually comes from an even stiffer country in this respect, a Scandinavian one, where people are very private with their life and social pressure is even lower than in Belgium. Not to mention that the guy is not a believer. It’s impossible to suspect him or others of being socially cornered or religiously conflicted, when they obviously are not. I know it’s hard if not impossible to fully understand other people’s motivations, and we tend to forget that when we use our faculties to extend our way of feeling things to other people’s lives. We have to allow for that limitation in everyone of us.
Furthermore, as Warren and other people here pointed out, it’s a matter of degrees. Maybe homosexuality is a condition that is more or less complete in individuals, so people who live it as a wholeness are very happy with it, while others live it as an affliction, which prevents them from expressing other priorities or desires in their lives. They are sovereign in their judgement and we shouldn’t know better for themselves if they want to swim against their desires instead of going with the flow. Difficulty is what made humans strive for freedom. Either from desire or to express that desire. I think we should respect that in both ways and support people in their choices. Are desires truer than personal values? Let’s not customise other people’s lives by our assumptions and feelings. I look at it as problem of human condition, not as one of Christians* versus gays.
*That’s why in one of my comments here I used Volkam’s concept of ‘suitable targets of externalisation’ to point out that we may be overlooking the fact that belief could be just a home to one’s struggle, not a motivation.
Jayhuck,
You present a dichotomous decision that may not exist. So, Only you can answer that question for yourself from the perspective that you place it in.
Others might pose the question from this perspective.
Is it better to live a life of God’s choosing or one of depravity?
Still others might pose it from another perspective such as:
Is it better to accept what others tell me I am or better to define my life for myself?
Is it better to change my definition of God or better to change my definiton of myself?
Is it better to be swayed by social definitions or better to discover myself overtime without imposition?
And on and on, Jayhuck, the positioning of perspective can be. Yours that you pose is only one and certainly not the only one people of differing values look at. I know tha gay community at large has a pretty narrow selection of choices. I for one am glad to have stepped out from that narrow way of thinking.
#67985
Don,
I read this scripture today and it brought to mind some of the posts on this thread that you and others have written regarding the old and new testaments.
“For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.”
— Romans 15:4
Ann asked in post 68035:
Did I say this
No, you implied it by stating you are referring to people who don’t want to be gay right after stating people deserve to know it is possible to live a happy life as a gay person.
Also, Ann, I think you need to consider a bit more carefully what you are arguing about. You are arguing that you DO NOT assume the people you were referring to (who want to change their orientation) know that it is possible to live a happy life as a gay person. Is that really an argument you want to put forth?
Jag,
I have a question. Do you believe in sex before marriage (or public statment of committment etc..)
Ken,
Another idea you might consider is that those who choose to move beyond a gay life do not see a happy gay life – it’s just not in them – no matter how many choices of gay lifestyle they have to choose from – to them is does not make them happy thinking about it.
You can present plate after plate with all different selections of desert to choose from – and being in a gay marriage, life, etc… (although they may be attracted to aperson of the same sex) it just does not appeal to them to live that life.
Also, Ann, I think you need to consider a bit more carefully what you are arguing about.
Ken,
Thanks for the admonishment but I am not arguing anything -
Jayhuck –
Your post on 68017 was well stated…thanks for that. I support your perspective.
Ann –
I think your point is an interesting one…”And why does no one talk about celibacy?” but I can’t tell you that it is a mystery to me. I don’t know that people find that they are not “complete” without someone else (I certainly don’t feel that way but maybe some do?), but that for some, a relationship – if it happens to be the one for you – is the icing on your cake, so to speak…especially for those who wish to have a family and see that family coming to creation and being raised through a family unit. While I think it is equally valid to live a celibate life, I think it is a rare choice made by only a few. It certainly doesn’t get enough attention in the literature.
Mary, as to sex before marriage, it is an interesting question posed in this day and age. For those who are gay, many have no options in commitment aside from their own creation (there being no public solidification in their geographic area) – I think not having that outlet only perpetuates the problem of noncommitted sex that is prevalent in both the straight and gay communities.
I see abstinence until marriage as the ideal by far, for many reasons, and it is one of the reasons I support SSM. It gives gay/lesbian americans the same framework to place their relationships in as others…and not think that somehow their life has to be different because who they choose to love in of the same gender. However, I do think this ideal, like many, is difficult to abide by for many….and is not a “requirement” of being a Christian – but it sure makes life easier.
Although I fervently support sex education (for those who may not make the same choice others do…to be protected, etc..), I certainly believe that abstaining from sex until married has innumerable benefits. It reduces the amount of early pregnancies, reduces abortions, slows the spread of disease, etc…
Your thoughts?
Ann–
I just want to commend you on holding on to your good graces throughout this thread. I admire what I’ve seen so far of your poise and your convictions. Be encouraged!
Had lots of sex myself and would rather not – now that I have a different view of sexuality and it’s place in a relationship.
As for gays – I find too many who use the marriage cards as the reason they engage in sex before committment – and that doesn’t make sense because gays can have committment ceremonies etc… be committed and then begin their sexual lives together. (Although you do know from previous posts that I support gay marriage)
Sex education? I am for the basics and for parent support. Personally, should I ever be in the position of raising a child, I will take an actvie role in discussing sexuality in society, it’s role in mariage and between two people etc…
Mary,
I for one am glad to have stepped out from that narrow way of thinking.
You act as if some conservative Christians who support ex-gays aren’t narrow in THEIR thinking – but they are! And I think before you brand an entire community as feeling one way or another, that you take a step back and assess what you’ve heard many open-minded gay people say on this blog.
Jag,
Regarding the celibacy issue – it was Jayhuck that wrote that. I think he makes a very good point and I agree that it is a very important issue to bring into discussions as well.
Evan,
BUT – to clarify – you are correct, I don’t know better what a person really needs or wants than they do – I agree with that. Many ex-gays have sought change for reasons they blamed on their orientation but which had nothing to do with their orientation.
I would never stand in the way of a friend who wanted to try his hand at being “ex-gay” – whether that meant celibacy or the chance to marry someone of the opposite sex. But I would make sure that that person talked with someone, besides myself, who could give them all the facts surrounding orientation, how difficult if next to impossible it is to change, as well as facts and figures on successes and failures of homosexual men marrying women.
And most importantly – if a friend of mine wanted to change that which was natural for him – when that issue, homosexuality, is not a disease or a disorder – as that person’s friend, I would have to ask WHY. I think its incredibly important to understand WHY. If I didn’t care enough to ask that question of my friend who wanted to change something so significant when it wasn’t a disease or disorder, I would wonder about my OWN agenda!!!!
Thank you Eddy -
Mary –
We agree on many fronts on this.
You stated:
“As for gays – I find too many who use the marriage cards as the reason they engage in sex before committment”…and I completely agree. I think there are a few contributing factors (many more than I list):
Although gay/lesbian people can commit in ceremonies…I do think, however, because of the continued invalidation by larger society (remarks to the effect of “that’s not a real marriage, commitment, etc…lack of societal recognition in benefits, etc..) and lack of legal binding, it seems less concrete, official and real to many. It’s not an excuse, but I understand the perspective. For many, they don’t see a societal structure which encourages or gives hope to a permanent future relationship.
I think another reason you see this in the gay population is because of, sadly, religion. We teach a certain morality that often says that “if you are gay, you are wrong and sinful” – many I know have felt that if they are sinful in who they are anyway, then the sexual acts are par for the course. Again, I don’t think it is an excuse, but I understand this. Feeling rejected and wrong by one faction of religion sometimes keeps individuals engaged in other facets of the faith. I know that the last thing I would do is set foot in a church that preached that my life, commitment, etc…was not valid. Thankfully, I am aware of other Christian churches which do support my family in leading a christian life.
It would be helpful to teach in churches that “sex before marriage” applies across the board…although, to do this, you have to acknowledge that indeed gay people do have the hope of a committed monogamous relationship – and that’s a step that many religions are unwilling to take, that type of recognition.
For example, many take the approach as some in my own family do. They display pictures of the weddings of others…but not mine. Why? (when I asked). Because I am not married according to them and their faith. Although my marriage is legally recognized in many countries, their faith prevents them from seeing this as any type of bond at all.
As for sex education…we both would find it important in discussing the place of sex and sexuality in society, relationships, marriage, etc…
It strikes me funny how much common ground we have when it comes down to it.
Thank you for your thoughts Mary.
Jag,
I agree with the many things listed for why gays feel invalidated. I felt that way too when I was gay. And I am sorry your pictures are not displayed. Had you grown up in my home – they would be right there with everyone else’s. You’d get teased for being a christian but not a lesbian!
JAG,
You make a very good point about why commitment and sex within the confines of a commitment may seem foreign to some gay people. But I think it also goes beyond just the question of sex within a covenant.
I think that Christianity in particular has done a great disservice not only to gay people but to the Body of Christ. Often the rejection of “the sin” has been in terms so absolute and unflinching that gay men and women believe that they have to access to God.
One of my best friends went to mass faithfully every Sunday until last year. He’s a midwest Catholic guy now living in West Hollywood and could attend a church where he felt welcomed. And did for years.
But one too many visits from his mother and he not only gave up on Christianity but is now strongly anti-Christian. His family is devout and very activist for the teachings of the Church and he has watched while they advocated for harm in his life. He sees the Church as an influence that has warped and twisted what should naturally be the bonds of family. He watched while a new Pope threw out all the conciliatory words of the last Pope and adopted a harsh and uncompromising view … and my friends family went right along, respecting the authority of the Church and of Christ’s vicar.
Those who favor anti-gay activism can talk all day about upholding faith and about standing by convictions and about hating sin and loving sinners. But what he sees is an institution that seeks to drive a wedge between his parents and himself and he recognizes it as evil.
Surely this cannot be what Christ wants.
Timothy,
Keep in mind that some people follow a man (the pope) rather than the bible. And remember Christ is one of us (all of us) and there are christians out here who really do not want harm to come to others.
I have been reminded recently on how I globalized my thinking about gays and have been humbled. Today I remind you not to globalize your thinking about non-gay christians.
Tim
Those who favor anti-gay activism can talk all day about upholding faith and about standing by convictions and about hating sin and loving sinners. But what he sees is an institution that seeks to drive a wedge between his parents and himself and he recognizes it as evil.
This is the legacy of very conservative Christianity. Granted, its a legacy from which they are trying to distance themselves, but I wonder if its too much too late.
Evan,
Let’s not customise other people’s lives by our assumptions and feelings. I look at it as problem of human condition, not as one of Christians* versus gays.
I believe that you would be wrong about this though. The Ex-Gay movement is funded and primarily run by conservative Evangelicals. To say that it is simply a part of the human condition is far from accurate. Most of the people involved in this movement – its members and leaders are conservative Christians – so to try and separate it from religion is really futile.
Warren,
I believe that God is more than enough to cause change. the change might not come immediately, but I believe it will come because God has staked His throne upon it. Whether it is immediate or gradual, change is possible in Christ, I say possible not in the sense of maybe or maybe not, but in the sense of Mark 9:23, “…all things are possible to him that believeth.”
When I got saved, some things fell off but some things didn’t, even though I was delivered from all the power of the enemy the moment I gave my heart to Christ, there were some things I had to work through. As Philippians says, “let every man work out his own salvation in fear and trembling.”
Profanity seemingly fell off, drug addictions fell off, cigarettes did not. It was months before I was physically and emotionally free from cigarettes. I put them down the third day after I got saved and did not smoke another one, but the desire to smoke, the almost overwhelming desire to smoke hung on me for months. As I continued to resist in faith the desire got less and less to the point after some months it was gone . Smoking is not even on the radar anymore, and that was 32 years ago.
In 1 Peter 5:8-10 it says, “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after ye have suffered awhile, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.”
Resisting bondage to sin of any label is an affliction, it is not comfortable, but as we resist in faith in obedience to God, the word says that the God of all grace will give grace. We will need grace because in our resistance to these bondages we will fail sometimes and give in; but we repent, get right back up and resume the resisting in faith and the number of failings will get less and less. God has promised he will provide grace. Hebrews 4:15-16 “For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.”
Don
Jayhuck,
Let me refer you back to my previous message 68053. As I was emphasising there, my perspective is a bit more comprehensive, both geographically and motivationally. I understand that the ex-gay movement is prominent in the States and that this is a highly contended stake in your country. But my friends from all over Europe (and from some Asian countries, Australia and South Africa too) who struggle with their SSAs have nothing to do with either ex-gay organisations or any other Christian ministry. Some people may actually cling to any such organisation just because there is nothing else out there for them to get some help. Many joined online groups or meetings because the burden of solitary struggle was too much for any healthy person — they needed to share with other people and to feel understood and accepted as such. People struggle with their unwanted attractions all over the world, it’s not just a political war that happened to take place in a country where Christian values are in the hearts of many.
Furthermore, people from the States are used to judge issues according to dynamics specific to that society. In your country, when people have any sort of problem, they come together and create outspoken communities to address that particular problem; they voice their concerns and demand acceptance. In Europe, social dynamics have a slower metabolism, people are more reflective than effusive, so this type of ex-gay organisations may have appeared only to emulate those from your country, in just a few places and on a far smaller scale. Does that mean that there are less strugglers with unwanted attractions in this area? I believe it does not. We don’t need to hear people crying out for help to assume that they have a problem. Let’s not take a shallow perspective on a general human problem. Do you want me to quote here messages of people from Europe who struggle with their unwanted attractions, without being involved in any Christian movement or aspiring to join one? Or invite a few here to give evidence of their problem? I think that could help you broaden your perspective of things such as they happen around the world.
Evan,
Let’s turn this around a bit – if you had straight friends who had unwanted OSAs – would you not be wondering WHY they were unhappy with their natural attractions?
Evan,
Its very easy to understand why some religious folks would be unhappy with their same-sex attractions, what is odd, is when non-religious folk are unhappy as well – that raises a few red flags in my mind. Something is making them unhappy with their natural and normal attractions – if its not religious, what is it? They have to be associating something bad with their orientation – or they are blaming other problems on their orientation – but in order to continue a discussion about your “non-religious” friends, we really need to understand better why they feel the need to change something about themselves that is normal.
Evan – thank you for your articulate words of wisdom.
Evan,
As far as I know, Evan, the ex-gay movement in other countries is also funded and driven by religious and political conservatives as well – I can find no evidence to the contrary on this anyway. Below are some articles I found on the subject
Click Here
Try this article for more info on European
Ex-Gay Info
Another article on the Ex-Gay movement here and in Europe
- and just because you have a few friends that are not associated with religion doesn’t take away from the the strong possibility that the vast majority of people who ARE involved with the movement, in this and other countries, ARE conservative Christians – On this as well I can find nothing to suggest otherwise. It is just my opinion, but if someone can prove me wrong, I’d like to hear about it. I see not reason to believe that the movement is operated by different ideologies overseas than it is here in the states – especially after reading the above articles
And the people you talk about who are crying for help because of their unwanted attractions obviously need to seek therapy? My first question would be WHY are these people unhappy with their attractions. That’s where we need to start.
Jayhuck,
You are assuming that your view is perfect. some people really do not want SSA and want to have a family and traditional marriage etc… Or do you keep skipping over those posts?
Mary,
They can have a family and a marriage with a person of the same sex. You’re not answering the question I posed which is WHY they feel the need to change something that is not a disorder or a disease and is natural.
Mary,
I do hope that I have not been giving the impression that non-gay christians have all been harsh and unwelcoming to their gay friends, family and neighbors. This would be far from an accurate accessment of religion in America.
I am well aware of welcoming denominations (United Church of Christ, Quakers, Episcopal, etc.) as well as those who have very large contingents of welcoming congregations (Presbyterian, Lutheran, Methodist, etc.). I follow the news pretty closely on this subject.
For example, just yesterday the Brothren (Mennonites) announced they will be reaccessing their position on homosexuality and determining if their 1983 position needs to be updated.
However, I also know that there is a very strong, very virulent anti-gay segment of Christianity.
In fact, some believe that the differences in the body of Christ over this issue will cause the largest scisms and the deepest divisions in Christianity since the issue of slavery. I think that is not a radical or even unlikely prediction. There are those who see this issue as the core of Christianity – that all are welcome at the table and that discrimination against gay people is the antithesis of Christ’s message. Others see the acceptance of gay people as a renunciation of the authority of Scripture and the capitulation to sin. There’s not a lot of common space between those two positions.
So let’s not be confused that the language from some segments of Christianity during this period of upheaval has been anything other that vile. And let up not suppose that claims of “love the sinner, hate the sin” has made those constant public and hyperbolic accusations seem any less a personal demonization of the gay individual.
It is unquestionable that many gay people did not choose to leave their faith but were driven away by emotional equivalent of mobs carrying pitchforks and torches shouting “kill the monster”.
Evan,
I believe that you came to us as a man without much familiarity at all with homosexuality but with a single example of a friend who was seeking to change his orientation. Now you appear to be a clearing-house of sorts for all such people in Europe.
It has been interesting watching your metamophosis.
Yes, Mary, I can confirm your thought. I have a friend who lives in France, he is not a religious person, but struggles with his unwanted SSAs because he wants to be able to start a family and enjoy that in the traditional way. That’s the man’s vision of happiness, Jayhuck, why do you want to know better for him? He doesn’t picture himself any other way, maybe it has to do with something that he acquired as a child seeing adult men and women being happy together. We all have such images that shape our hopes and that come from our past imprinted in us.
Please allow for some time to answer the other replies.
Let’s turn this around a bit – if you had straight friends who had unwanted OSAs – would you not be wondering WHY they were unhappy with their natural attractions?
Jayhuck,
This is a good point and speaks to a post I made earlier that was mis-understood – I know you are asking a hypothetical question but does anyone here know or have you ever known anyone that had unwanted OSA?
Something is making them unhappy with their natural and normal attractions – if its not religious, what is it
Jayhuck,
Could it be that they do not agree with you and do not feel it is natural or normal for them? Could it be what they value in life and they do not value these attractions? Whatever it is for them, it is personal and deserves respect.
And the people you talk about who are crying for help because of their unwanted attractions obviously need to seek therapy? My first question would be WHY are these people unhappy with their attractions. That’s where we need to start.
Jayhuck,
Why does it matter to any of us and why should they feel an obligation to disclose that information to a lay person? Do you feel they deserve the help they are asking for?
They can have a family and a marriage with a person of the same sex.
Jayhuck,
They do NOT want that – until you and others can fully accept and respect that, there is always going to be contention, which is VERY unnecessary.
Jayhuck,
I do think the conservative christians are narrow in their thinking – maybe you have not noticed my others posts??
And last time Jayhuck, some people do not see things the same way as you do and want a family and marriage with a person of the opposite sex.
After this – I am not responding if it has been said or posted at least three times in different ways. I am honestly tired of saying the same thing to you.
Jayhuck,
Does it matter WHY someone wants to do something for their own life. Why should it matter to you or to anyone – for example : conservative christians who want others to change, gay activists who want others to stay gay etc…
Evan and Mary,
He doesn’t picture himself any other way, maybe it has to do with something that he acquired as a child seeing adult men and women being happy together.
Why should it matter to you or to anyone
Because, Evan and Mary, People do things for the right reasons sometimes and sometimes for the wrong reasons. If a gay man wants to change because he believes he can’t be happy being gay or because he wants a family and doesn’t believe he can have that as a gay man, those are bad reasons. That person obviously doesn’t understand that they can have these things. Gay men have sought to be straight through the decades for all sorts of reasons – think of all the stories you’ve heard. Sometimes the reasons simply come down to the fact that the community is not treated equally, it is still repressed by the larger majority – and people have all sorts of societal and religious pressures put upon them to be “normal”, in the sense of being straight. Our culture, while getting better, still does this. I wouldn’t think that a person who wants to change just because society or religion has put it in his head that he should, is wanting to change for the right reasons.
Now if they aren’t happy because their values/religious beliefs don’t mesh with their attractions, that makes sense.
Mary – ready for a bad example?
– do you think it would be OK for me to risk the dangers of plastic surgery just because I have a nose that might be different from most people’s noses? The only reason I want surgery is because others are making feel less than normal and because I keep seeing others with other noses who are happy – therefore I think that if I can just have surgery I’ll be happy because my nose will be like everyone else.
I guess I see the above example as a problem. When it comes down to it it won’t be me asking these questions, it will be the therapists, and rightly so, because as our own experience has taught us, what we think will make us happy, sometimes doesn’t. But you are right, in the end its not about me or about what I think, but about how therapists will handle the situation – and I know that most will do a careful assessment before proceeding with what the client wants. I’m sure there will be times when the therapist and client realize that trying to change orientation is not really going to benefit the client, and there may be times when they think it will.
The fact that something is ‘natural’ does not mean that it is right or good…it says nothing either way…just that it’s natural. An infant has natural desires; some are good but there are others that are definitely natural–possibly inborn–that people tend to universally think are wrong. The easiest example is lying. Any parent can tell you it comes naturally to a child. (I am not making comparisons between lying and homosexuality here: I am speaking to the notion that ‘natural’ means ‘right’; it doesn’t.)
Evan seems to be speaking about people who had identified as gay and were now moving in a different direction. I doubt that any of their stories are the same. Maybe some weren’t really gay to begin with. Perhaps others had a culturally induced guilt. Others may have been turned off by those parts of the gay culture they were exposed to. …A belief in the ideal of ‘one partner for life’. Esteeming a ‘soul mate’ as a more beneficial life partner than a bedmate for whatever the reasons might be. Wanting to pass on the genes and family heritage.
There could be others. My exposure was predominantly to Christians (not all Conservatives, though). I did meet a few clients who went to churches that felt it was okay to be gay yet they still felt conflicted. I tried to help them explore where their sense of conflict was coming from. But for those that I’ve met as a layman, I played it by ear. If they didn’t already know it, I’d let them know of my unusual background in this area. But, beyond that, they needed to do the steering and I needed to hear and respond to what they were saying or asking.
Evan–when you said your friends weren’t happy being gay: 1) Did you really say that or did someone paraphrase you? 2) If you did say it, were you inferring that they actually were not happy or were you attempting to be colloquial? (“I’m not happy with this wallpaper.”)
Yes, Timothy, I do not have direct familiarity with homosexuality, in the sense that neither have I led such type of life, nor have I gone to specific venues to study gay people (as Michael Bailey does…). I am very interested in human sexuality as a problem (I have a peculiar history myself of developing sexual interest and life, but the context to talk about it didn’t come up as yet), as revealed in both OSAs and SSAs, and in the last few years I have talked to a few gay men and to many people who struggle with unwanted attractions about their life experiences. I have made great friends among the people who struggle with unwanted attractions, from all around the world, and their stories have left a great mark on me. I even thought about getting a second degree to pursue a new career in brain study, after seeing the incredible potential of the brain to shape our perceptions and experience, but to disrupt them too. I haven’t given up on that thought, although I’m in my late 20s.
I think I wrote in a previous message that I do not know gay life from the inside, but I have learned very surprising things from the people I know and who led a gay life or had brief encounters with it. One of them is a man who had exclusive homosexual relations for more than 30 years and who now wants to change. I have to say that I have been confessed by all these people things that have never been confessed to me by any heterosexual person to this level of sincerity. So please, if my account of these issues do not fit your personal take, do not try to reduce cognitive dissonance by doubting my honesty.
Jayhuck
I read “right reasons…” and then stopped there. As if you are the decider on what is right?
Mary,
I am not the decider on what is right or wrong – if you had read a little further I think you would have seen me try and make that a little clearer. I am sorry if I’ve been giving you that impression. I know that I am not the decider, and I shouldn’t be. I am also sorry if you missed my larger point. Perhaps I will come back to it again soon when I feel I can be a little more coherent and a little less controversial
Evan,
I think I wrote in a previous message that I do not know gay life from the inside
I think statements like this are sometimes the problem. I fully realize you probably didn’t mean to suggest the things I’m going to talk about, but I think for some straight people and even some gay people, there is an idea that there is a single kind of life that all gay people lead. I’m sure you’re aware of the rich variety that is out there, but I think you might be surprised how many people – straight and even gay – think that all gay people do this or that or live this way or that.
There is no “gay life” in that sense. Gay people live in all sorts of different ways. The gay people I talked about earlier who wanted to change their orientation – they believed this would make them happy but the REASON they believed this, the WHY I keep talking about, was because they were addicted to alcohol and drugs and led such a party kind of lifestyle they thought trying to change their sexual identity would cure them of these problems.
Well, of course, their problems had nothing to do with their identity or their orientation – enough straight people suffer from these same addictions to show us that. But this is what I was trying to get at when I talked about really understanding WHY someone wants to change and why it would be so important for any therapist to figure this out. The above reasons these people sought change were not good reasons – they based their desire for change on faulty reasoning (that their orientation caused their addiction, when in fact it was their lifestyle), and that can never be good and would never have led to ultimate happiness for either of them. Maybe I’m making myself clearer now – I don’t know – but at least I gave it one more try – and did it without multiple posts – woo hooo
Timothy,
Thank you for addressing me. One more thing – a conservative christian does not need to be accepting of homosexual behavior or welcoming homosexual behavior to truly love others. Nor will you see them run the monster off with pitch forks. Instead you will see them be gracious, loving, compassionate, caring, and welcoming to them as people, etc…
I am also very aware that this “moster chasing” has happened as it has happened to me both as a lesbian and an ex gay ( I usually stay away from those kinds of “monsters”)
Mary –
“Does it matter WHY someone wants to do something for their own life. Why should it matter to you or to anyone – for example : conservative christians who want others to change, gay activists who want others to stay gay etc…”
You know, I tend to agree with you…it is none of our concern “why,” but the problem is that many people (Warren for example) DO think it matters what someone else chooses for their life. They fervently write letters, campaign or speak out against legislation that would allow same-sex couples to marry and have the life they choose, for same-sex couples to adopt and have the families they choose, etc…
I think we get far too caught up on the choices that others make and attempting to restrict their choices. You do not do this Mary, but I am sure you are aware that many do. Many who even claim neutrality. It is one issue that I have with Warren…who claims that SIT is neutral, but yet advocates against same-sex marriage…I’m not sure how that fits with stated “neutrality.”
Like you, Mary, I believe people have the right to make the choices they do. However, I understand Jayhuck’s point. If we question the origins and motivations constantly of those who have same-sex attractions, live in same-sex relationships, etc…how can we not question those who want to rid themselves of it? It is the pendulum swinging both ways, and I’m not surprised by it.
For years people have questioned gay/lesbian people even in their morality, it is no surprise that individuals would question why someone would want to change…since we question all the time why people have same-sex attractions in the first place. Personally, I think we need to stop the questioning and let people live…and if they aren’t hurting anyone…leave them alone to pursue what makes them happy.
To be honest, I certainly wonder why anyone would choose not to live in accordance to what seemed to be their inherent attractions and why anyone would want to even attempt to alter these. I suppose my own conclusions have been that although it is not a choice I would make, it is valid for those who make it. I respect them and wish them well, just as I hope they do the same for me….respecting my decision to live in accordance with my own attractions, and not attempt to stand in the way of my own happiness.
jag – Would you say you are neutral with your clients about the direction of their lives?
Similar symptoms do not account for similar problems, Jayhuck. Straight people are not conflicted about their attractions because they do not have any doubt about the direction of their instincts. They see a matching in all natural things between a man and a woman, between his instinct to protect her and her instinct to look for protection and to want to have children, and so on with physical features and longings. It’s like a ceremonial meeting of two worlds. It can be missed too and people can feel content living without it, but this is where we all sprang from. God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. The latter is our human addition, with all the ensuing consequences.
As to what causes some gay men to want to change, I couldn’t say it properly myself, so I will quote from the confession of a gay man to me (the wording is entirely his):
Now, I realise that you will claim this is no more common in ‘gay life’ than in ‘straight life’, however the man says this is pervasive among gay men. Whom should I believe? You both are biased by your choices — he wants out of it, you want to defend your position. No one wants to persuade you of his reasons, however you want to persuade him that his problem is not his attractions and the attending sexuality, but any other thing that makes his life empty and desperate. It may be a matter of degrees… Not all people are as good as others to take shelter in mainstream practices to cope with their condition.
Let’s imagine that the man quoted above would undergo therapy and manage to get rid of addictions, deal with depression and work on his ability to develop relationships. He will backslide, because it was not addiction or depression that caused him to not be able to maintain relationships, but the volatility of those relationships, the fact that both he and his partner have many other partners at the same time. From that confession, it seems to me the cause is not his lifestyle, but his exchange of sexual offering for a few minutes of feeling loved.
JAg,
Nonetheless, even you have your own definition and cannot understand why someone would want to change. That kind of mentality limits our ability to really know others and accept them for who they are – instead we are just accepting them blindly and never understanding.
Let me rephrase that-
If we don’t understand someone and inquire (or are freely given a reason for something) and then insist on our own reasoning to be accepted by them then we have failed to understand them. We do not decide the right reason or the wrong reason for someone else to choose which gender they prefer (by choice of having made a decision to act on and pursue) to be with (regardless of their inclination at one time to be with a different gender) A person has their own reason. When they share that reason – we should try to understand that in them and accept that reason as their reason. We don’t have to accept that same reason for our own selfs – as we live by a different perspective and have different reasons for making our choices.
In other words this is an example of how to make clear distinctions between and definitions of boundaries between people. What’s your is yours and what is mine is mine.
Evan,
however the man says this is pervasive among gay men.
I knew a few straight couples who are into swinging – that is they swap partners or have multiple sex partners. They believed that many if not most straight couples actually engaged in this type of behavior and just didn’t tell anyone – all of this based on their own experience mind you. My point? You can never have one, two or even a few people speak for an ENTIRE group of people. There are roughly some 7 – 20 million gay people in the United States alone – your friends wouldn’t even make up 1% of 1% of those people. So in the same way I do not let a few straight people define ALL straight people for me, I do not let a few gay people define ALL gay people for me – and, if you are interested at all in Truth, neither should you.
Similar symptoms do not account for similar problems, Jayhuck. Straight people are not conflicted about their attractions because they do not have any doubt about the direction of their instincts.
And similar symptoms also don’t mean that there are DIFFERENT problems Evan. You seemed to completely miss my point. The pressures put on gay people in my society – and maybe you don’t understand this because you are overseas, are quite different than the ones some of your friends and you obviously have to deal with. Addictions don’t have anything to do with one’s orientation – many gay people have overcome many different types of addictions without needing or feeling the desire to change their orientation – much in the same way that straight people do not require a change of orientation to overcome their own addictions. The problem, that we should all see with this, is that they tried to TIE their addictions TO their orientation – That faulty reasoning is the problem. What I find interesting is that EX-GAY people are often the one’s trying to do this, while gay people are not – although I think you’re seeing fewer and fewer ex-gay people try and lump non-orientation related problems onto their orientation. The people I spoke with above simply needed to stop drinking and partying so much. The fact that YOU think they might have needed to do something as drastic as try and change their orientation for a problem that is as routine as addiction, makes me wonder about you Evan. You seem to side much more with the Ex-Gay way of thinking than you do with Gay people. I’ll leave the ball in your court.
Jag and Mary,
You know, I tend to agree with you…it is none of our concern “why,”
I ultimately agree with both of you here. As a layman and a non-therapist it really isn’t any of my business. If one of my good friends were going to do this, I think it would be a little of my business, as a friend, to at least find out why – or perhaps that is just my own innate and often intense curiosity
BUT – I wanted to make sure you both knew that the question of WHY can and SHOULD be asked by therapists I think, since people seeking to alter their orientation are going against that which is natural for them. Am I wrong about this Jag? Would a therapist NOT ask or try to find out why? Personally, I think they would be remiss if they didn’t, but that’s just me.
Anyway – thank you both for your respective comments
Evan said in post 68582:
however the man says this is pervasive among gay men.
While he may say this, the point you are missing is that it is only pervasive among gay men he knows and based on what you have said about him, I strongly suspect that this group has a significant selection bias. What if I where to say that drug-use is pervasive among blacks? Now, I tell you that the only blacks I know, I met through a drug rehab program. How would that effect the reliability of my statement about drug-use among blacks?
He will backslide, because it was not addiction or depression that caused him to not be able to maintain relationships, but the volatility of those relationships, the fact that both he and his partner have many other partners at the same time.
If the non-monogamous nature of his relationship is the problem, then why not work with him to help him form a monogamous relationship? Or perhaps, work with him to teach him how couples, who have non-destructive, non-monogamous relationships, make them work?
from #68614
Jayhuck,
These two thoughts seem to contradict each other – in the first one you are admonishing Evan for citing examples that you perceived spoke for an entire group of people and in the second, it appears that you are doing the same thing. When you distinguish ex-gay and gay people, who and how many are you referring to and do they represent the entire group?
“You can never have one, two or even a few people speak for an ENTIRE group of people.”
“What I find interesting is that EX-GAY people are often the one’s trying to do this, while gay people are not -”
Warren –
You asked: “Would you say you are neutral with your clients about the direction of their lives?”
I would respond that I am as neutral as I can be, which is why I advocate for my gay clients to have the right to establish families (be protected, able to marry, etc..), my straight clients to have their rights protected and have choices, and clients who wish to be ex-gay to have options which are scientifically researched and sound.
People should have the choice to lead their lives the way they wish…and I try to do my best to make sure every group has the safe options, legal protections and choice of doing just that.
Ann,
I’m sorry that I wasn’t clear – let me rephrase this: What I find interesting is that in my experience it is often EX-GAY people who are trying to do this, not gay people”
Jayhuck,
You are attacking an argument I do not defend. I never said that all gays are promiscuous or anything to this effect. Please remember the point in debate was seeing how justified reasons to change are or if any such judgement should be made by non-involved parties, such as you and me. That gay man may be wrong in seeing a general pattern for all those problems in the community in which he lived for more than 30 years, but he may also be right and you may live in a more carefree milieu. We all are prone to making general statements based on our experience in a social environment that we choose and that is chosen by others for the same reason of social similarity and reducing the pressure to adapt. However, given that he confessed to having as much as 100 partners until now, I reckon that that qualifies as impressive record for sexual experience by any standards. (He is also the guy who said that his sexual record is rather low compared against other people’s experience in his gay community.) I’m not stressing this point to prove something related to gays in general, only to “suggest a link” between the need to reduce feelings of depression and need for affection by sexual cruising. Obviously if he had succeeded in finding stable partners, he would have met that need and reduced his addictive behaviours. I actually suggested this to him, to find a stable partner, because I have serious doubts that his chances to change are anything around those of people who never had gay encounters.
As for the second part of your argument, let me just say that your reply is purely logical, it completely misses the specificity of the issue. Of course addictions are not created by orientation and they can be addressed as a separate problem, but what created those addictions is orientation-specific in people who do not succeed in finding a stable partner. He resorts to addiction to reduce unmet emotional needs that are only temporarily alleviated by anonymous sex. It’s one of the main reasons he wants to change. I specifically wrote that the problem it’s not in his failure to establish longer relationships, but also in both partners’ failure to limit their cruising. Maybe it happens in particular “subsets” or maybe it has to do with certain personality types, but the bottom line is the same — it doesn’t work. He says: I only have a feeling of worthiness when I “give sex” (his expression), but that kills everything else. That is coming from the part of a very educated person, who teaches in university and plays classical piano. I would really like to invite him here to drop a few lines about his experience, I’m sure he can present his problems a lot better than I could. I’ll try to do that, if he agrees with the idea.
Mary –
You stated:
“Nonetheless, even you have your own definition and cannot understand why someone would want to change. That kind of mentality limits our ability to really know others and accept them for who they are – instead we are just accepting them blindly and never understanding.”
Please reread my post above…
I state: “I suppose my own conclusions have been that although it is not a choice I would make, it is valid for those who make it. I respect them and wish them well, just as I hope they do the same for me….respecting my decision to live in accordance with my own attractions, and not attempt to stand in the way of my own happiness.”
My thoughts Mary, is that I don’t think there is a blanket explanation as to why people wish not to have SSA…so I don’t speculate. I don’t think it is important for me to assume that all people have the same reasons, nor is their explanation a prerequisite for my acceptance of them.
In therapy, of course I am assuming they would discuss this, but if they decided not to, I think this also says volumes.
I do accept them blindly…although in getting to know them, I hope to learn more about their wishes, desires, and reasons for many of their life decisions. I don’t force it, I don’t assume, and I don’t demand to know – it’s a very personal thing.
We are all human beings in this world – unless you are harming me in some way, I do accept you blindly. I don’t have conditions for this.
Evan,
I’m not stressing this point to prove something related to gays in general, only to “suggest a link” between the need to reduce feelings of depression and need for affection by sexual cruising.
I think its a pretty established viewpoint that people use all sorts of things to decrease depression in their lives. Sometimes addictions – to anything – and that includes sex, can be seen as such. This isn’t new or revolutionary – I’m assuming then that we agree on this, although I’m still not sure about the reason behind bringing this up.
Of course addictions are not created by orientation and they can be addressed as a separate problem, but what created those addictions is orientation-specific in people who do not succeed in finding a stable partner. He resorts to addiction to reduce unmet emotional needs that are only temporarily alleviated by anonymous sex.
what created those addictions is still not orientation-specific – it is lifestyle specific and you seem to be getting these two things confused. There would be straight people who also fit this definition – it has nothing to do with orientation at all.
Jayhuck–
I think Ann and Mary have been trying to point out that the focus here seems to be on all the ‘ex-gay’ inconsistencies. Yes, they have them. But it doesn’t mean that the other side isn’t guilty of pretty much the same. You can point your finger in one direction only but, in an honest discussion, you recognize the possibility that both sides may be less than perfect in their approach. It seems there’s enough closed-mindedness and bigotry on BOTH sides to muddle discussions for a long time to come.
Eddy,
You can point your finger in one direction only but, in an honest discussion, you recognize the possibility that both sides may be less than perfect in their approach. It seems there’s enough closed-mindedness and bigotry on BOTH sides to muddle discussions for a long time to come.
I agree with you Eddy – There IS enough closed mindedness and bigotry on both sides to muddle discussions.
Does anyone wonder why Paul never mentions sexual orientation in Scripture. Or maybe he was referring to it in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 when he warned that some in the church would not endure sound doctrine, but would “turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” These myths cater to the lusts that burn in their heart, driven by unclean spirits that promote these lusts. How many sexual orientations are there? 5? 10? 20?
Homosexual, Bi-sexual, Trans-sexual? What about a man who wants to get it on with a horse, is he an equesti-sexual? These are not sexual orientations! They are lusts. When Paul addressed the desire of a woman wanting to get it on with another woman or a man wanting to get it on with another man in Romans 1:26, 27, he did not call it sexual orientation. He called it a vile affection, a lust. Quit trying to be smarter that God, and make his word the final authority in sexual matters.
Don
Don –
You state:
“These are not sexual orientations! They are lusts. When Paul addressed the desire of a woman wanting to get it on with another woman or a man wanting to get it on with another man in Romans 1:26, 27, he did not call it sexual orientation. He called it a vile affection, a lust.”
Well, since the bible stated that it was better to be married than to “burn with lust,” I suppose heterosexuality is no different from homosexuality. (1 Corinthians, 7:9). They are all lusts.
Perhaps allowing same-sex couples the same “remedy” for their lusts as heterosexuals might just be the way to go. Let them marry. Perhaps that’s what God was suggesting after all.
Thanks for the thought.
Jag –
I like the way you think