Comments on: New book explores God and Hillary Clinton http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/09/19/new-book-explores-god-and-hillary-clinton/ A College Psychology Professor's Observations About Public Policy, Mental Health, Sexual Identity, and Religious Issues Wed, 23 May 2012 15:26:21 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Don Costello http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/09/19/new-book-explores-god-and-hillary-clinton/comment-page-2/#comment-67509 Don Costello Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:11:38 +0000 http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/09/19/new-book-explores-god-and-hillary-clinton/#comment-67509 Jayhuck, No problem, Be it resolved! Don Jayhuck,
No problem, Be it resolved!
Don

]]> By: jayhuck http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/09/19/new-book-explores-god-and-hillary-clinton/comment-page-2/#comment-67447 jayhuck Sun, 25 Nov 2007 02:34:02 +0000 http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/09/19/new-book-explores-god-and-hillary-clinton/#comment-67447 Don, God's word doesn't say anything of the sort. Genesis 9:6 is part of the old Mosaic law that doesn't apply anymore - It is not "the commandments of Christ in the Gospels". If you're going to use that passage in Genesis, what about the book of Leviticus that talks about not wearing certain types of fibers, or not eating certain types of foods, or animal sacrifice and how necessary it is? Do you still abide by all these things? Romans 13:4 and the verses around it are talking about the purpose of a civil government and it upholding social order - it doesn't say anything about killing people. In one verse it says "to execute wrath on him who practices evil", but in that instance the word execute means "to carry out". In the following verse Paul goes on to say that the Church and state are distinct, and if the state is forcing people to do evil, it is better to follow the word of God. I see absolutely nothing about killing people in any of these passages. As for 1 Timothy 1:8-11, those verses are talking about how the law is good. "it is good because God gave it (Rom. 7:16). It was 1) A schoolmaster for God's chosen people to confront and control their sin until the Incarnation of His Son FULFILLED THE LAW and 2) A Guide to lead all people to Christ" Don, the fact is that you seem to be stuck in Old Testament law and can't seem to accept the teachings and commandments of Christ - of forgiveness and redemption. We fundamentally disagree and I don't think it would be productive to continue this conversation - You may if you like, but I think I'm going to lay my pen down :) God bless Don,

God’s word doesn’t say anything of the sort. Genesis 9:6 is part of the old Mosaic law that doesn’t apply anymore – It is not “the commandments of Christ in the Gospels”. If you’re going to use that passage in Genesis, what about the book of Leviticus that talks about not wearing certain types of fibers, or not eating certain types of foods, or animal sacrifice and how necessary it is? Do you still abide by all these things?

Romans 13:4 and the verses around it are talking about the purpose of a civil government and it upholding social order – it doesn’t say anything about killing people. In one verse it says “to execute wrath on him who practices evil”, but in that instance the word execute means “to carry out”. In the following verse Paul goes on to say that the Church and state are distinct, and if the state is forcing people to do evil, it is better to follow the word of God. I see absolutely nothing about killing people in any of these passages.

As for 1 Timothy 1:8-11, those verses are talking about how the law is good. “it is good because God gave it (Rom. 7:16). It was 1) A schoolmaster for God’s chosen people to confront and control their sin until the Incarnation of His Son FULFILLED THE LAW and 2) A Guide to lead all people to Christ”

Don, the fact is that you seem to be stuck in Old Testament law and can’t seem to accept the teachings and commandments of Christ – of forgiveness and redemption. We fundamentally disagree and I don’t think it would be productive to continue this conversation – You may if you like, but I think I’m going to lay my pen down :) God bless

]]> By: Don Costello http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/09/19/new-book-explores-god-and-hillary-clinton/comment-page-2/#comment-67419 Don Costello Sun, 25 Nov 2007 02:04:18 +0000 http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/09/19/new-book-explores-god-and-hillary-clinton/#comment-67419 Jayhuck, What part of Genesis 9:6 do you not understand? What part of Romans 13:4 do you not understand? It does not matter what your church says, God's word says He instituted it. Let's look at another passage. Paul wrote in 1 timothy 1:8-11: "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust." Paul writes that laws that deal with murderers and manslayers i.e., capital punishment are sound doctrine and according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God. So don't tell me what your church says, because God's word says something different; and as Romans 3:4 says, "...let God be true and every man a liar;" The interesting part in all of this is that God's word prophesies that the time would come when people in the church would not hold up sound doctrine. Check out 2 Timothy 3:16-4:4. The interesting thing in all this Jayhuck is the fact the more you or your church deny what the word of God says, the more you fulfill it. Don Jayhuck,
What part of Genesis 9:6 do you not understand? What part of Romans 13:4 do you not understand? It does not matter what your church says, God’s word says He instituted it.
Let’s look at another passage. Paul wrote in 1 timothy 1:8-11: “But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.” Paul writes that laws that deal with murderers and manslayers i.e., capital punishment are sound doctrine and according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God. So don’t tell me what your church says, because God’s word says something different; and as Romans 3:4 says, “…let God be true and every man a liar;” The interesting part in all of this is that God’s word prophesies that the time would come when people in the church would not hold up sound doctrine. Check out 2 Timothy 3:16-4:4. The interesting thing in all this Jayhuck is the fact the more you or your church deny what the word of God says, the more you fulfill it.
Don

]]> By: jayhuck http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/09/19/new-book-explores-god-and-hillary-clinton/comment-page-2/#comment-67308 jayhuck Sat, 24 Nov 2007 15:35:33 +0000 http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/09/19/new-book-explores-god-and-hillary-clinton/#comment-67308 Don - A statement from the governing body of my church - note the paragraph that discusses how Christ himself prevented the execution of a woman - and remember that Roman Law and Christ's teachings were often completely opposed to each other: "WHEREAS Orthodox Christians should be called to go beyond the political, social, and legal issues raised by capital punishment and recognize and address the deeper moral, ethical, and religious questions of the supreme value of human life in a manner consistent with our opposition to abortion and mercy killing, and in all such questions involving life and death the Church must always champion life; and WHEREAS in an effort to further the respect for all human life and to witness to the redemptive nature of the Gospel of Jesus Christ who Himself prevented the legal execution of a woman (John 8:3-11) and realizing that premature death resulting from the application of the death penalty can prevent the rehabilitation, reconciliation, and redemption of the offender; and WHEREAS, while we recognize the necessity to punish those guilty of violent crime, we also recognize that there is no humane way to execute a human being; BE IT RESOLVED THAT the Ninth All-American Council of the Orthodox Church in America supports the abolition of the death penalty in this and all countries and does urge our elected and appointed officials in those states where prisoners are still executed to introduce and support appropriate legislation aimed at abolishing the death penalty; BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this Council requests all governors of states where the death penalty is still in force to halt all further executions according to the power of their office, but that legislative provisions be made for life imprisonment without possibility of parole for those subject to the death penalty; FINALLY, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Ninth All-American Council of the Orthodox church in America supports and encourages religious bodies, organizations and human rights groups which seek the abolition of the death penalty." Don – A statement from the governing body of my church – note the paragraph that discusses how Christ himself prevented the execution of a woman – and remember that Roman Law and Christ’s teachings were often completely opposed to each other:

“WHEREAS Orthodox Christians should be called to go beyond the political, social, and legal issues raised by capital punishment and recognize and address the deeper moral, ethical, and religious questions of the supreme value of human life in a manner consistent with our opposition to abortion and mercy killing, and in all such questions involving life and death the Church must always champion life; and

WHEREAS in an effort to further the respect for all human life and to witness to the redemptive nature of the Gospel of Jesus Christ who Himself prevented the legal execution of a woman (John 8:3-11) and realizing that premature death resulting from the application of the death penalty can prevent the rehabilitation, reconciliation, and redemption of the offender; and

WHEREAS, while we recognize the necessity to punish those guilty of violent crime, we also recognize that there is no humane way to execute a human being;

BE IT RESOLVED THAT the Ninth All-American Council of the Orthodox Church in America supports the abolition of the death penalty in this and all countries and does urge our elected and appointed officials in those states where prisoners are still executed to introduce and support appropriate legislation aimed at abolishing the death penalty;

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this Council requests all governors of states where the death penalty is still in force to halt all further executions according to the power of their office, but that legislative provisions be made for life imprisonment without possibility of parole for those subject to the death penalty;

FINALLY, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Ninth All-American Council of the Orthodox church in America supports and encourages religious bodies, organizations and human rights groups which seek the abolition of the death penalty.”

]]> By: jayhuck http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/09/19/new-book-explores-god-and-hillary-clinton/comment-page-2/#comment-67307 jayhuck Sat, 24 Nov 2007 15:31:06 +0000 http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/09/19/new-book-explores-god-and-hillary-clinton/#comment-67307 Don, "Yes there have been problems within each of them but whether we like it or not it was instituted by God. " They were not instituted by God - If anything, God in Christ told us that they are morally wrong. Roman Law and the teachings of Christ were often opposed to each other. Don,

“Yes there have been problems within each of them but whether we like it or not it was instituted by God. ”

They were not instituted by God – If anything, God in Christ told us that they are morally wrong. Roman Law and the teachings of Christ were often opposed to each other.

]]> By: Don Costello http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/09/19/new-book-explores-god-and-hillary-clinton/comment-page-2/#comment-67295 Don Costello Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:10:20 +0000 http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/09/19/new-book-explores-god-and-hillary-clinton/#comment-67295 Jayhuck, The previous post was an Old Testament passage but it predated the Old Covenant, the Mosaic, I'm guessing by about 900 years. So it was not just for Israel, it was for all mankind. Let me give you some New Testament passages that show it has not been abolished. In Romans 13:1-7 the Apostle Paul deals with the believers heart attitude toward the civil authority. In verse one he says, "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established." Paul goes on to say in verse four; "For he is God's servant, to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer." Under Roman law the death penalty was implemented by various ways, whether it was decapitation, crucifixion or other means, it was a part of Roman civil authority. When Paul was appearing before Festus in Acts 25:10, 11 he made this statement. "I am now standing before Ceasar's court, where I ought to be tried. I have not done any wrong to the Jews, as you yourself know very well. If, however, I am guilty of doing anything deserving of death, I do not refuse to die. But if the charges brought against me by these Jews are not true, no one has the right to hand me over to them. I appeal to Ceasar!" In that statement Paul not only honored the God ordained institution of civil government, he also honored their God ordained authority to put to death those worthy of death. Don Jayhuck,
The previous post was an Old Testament passage but it predated the Old Covenant, the Mosaic, I’m guessing by about 900 years. So it was not just for Israel, it was for all mankind.
Let me give you some New Testament passages that show it has not been abolished. In Romans 13:1-7 the Apostle Paul deals with the believers heart attitude toward the civil authority. In verse one he says, “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established.” Paul goes on to say in verse four; “For he is God’s servant, to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.”
Under Roman law the death penalty was implemented by various ways, whether it was decapitation, crucifixion or other means, it was a part of Roman civil authority. When Paul was appearing before Festus in Acts 25:10, 11 he made this statement. “I am now standing before Ceasar’s court, where I ought to be tried. I have not done any wrong to the Jews, as you yourself know very well. If, however, I am guilty of doing anything deserving of death, I do not refuse to die. But if the charges brought against me by these Jews are not true, no one has the right to hand me over to them. I appeal to Ceasar!” In that statement Paul not only honored the God ordained institution of civil government, he also honored their God ordained authority to put to death those worthy of death.
Don

]]> By: Don Costello http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/09/19/new-book-explores-god-and-hillary-clinton/comment-page-2/#comment-67277 Don Costello Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:21:08 +0000 http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/09/19/new-book-explores-god-and-hillary-clinton/#comment-67277 Jayhuck, I believe the death penalty was instituted by God in Genesis 9:6 "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." It is for this reason that most if not all cultures have had death penalty's within their judicial systems. Yes there have been problems within each of them but whether we like it or not it was instituted by God. Even though there are problems within our own system of justice, I believe that the one in America is the best in the world. Because of that I do not have a problem with the death penalty for those who are according to God's word, worthy of death. Don Jayhuck,
I believe the death penalty was instituted by God in Genesis 9:6 “Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.” It is for this reason that most if not all cultures have had death penalty’s within their judicial systems. Yes there have been problems within each of them but whether we like it or not it was instituted by God. Even though there are problems within our own system of justice, I believe that the one in America is the best in the world. Because of that I do not have a problem with the death penalty for those who are according to God’s word, worthy of death.
Don

]]> By: jayhuck http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/09/19/new-book-explores-god-and-hillary-clinton/comment-page-2/#comment-67252 jayhuck Sat, 24 Nov 2007 03:20:09 +0000 http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/09/19/new-book-explores-god-and-hillary-clinton/#comment-67252 Eddy, <i>1) I have a general distrust of the judicial system so don’t have faith that they always come to the right judgements. 2) For the guilty, the death penalty ends everything–including their chance to respond to the gospel.</i> I would have to agree with you on all counts!!!!! I think DNA testing has shown us just how unjust our justice system can be at times. Not that I want the system done away with - but I think its good to acknowledge its flaws when we are talking about ending the life of another human being. Eddy,

1) I have a general distrust of the judicial system so don’t have faith that they always come to the right judgements. 2) For the guilty, the death penalty ends everything–including their chance to respond to the gospel.

I would have to agree with you on all counts!!!!! I think DNA testing has shown us just how unjust our justice system can be at times. Not that I want the system done away with – but I think its good to acknowledge its flaws when we are talking about ending the life of another human being.

]]> By: jayhuck http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/09/19/new-book-explores-god-and-hillary-clinton/comment-page-2/#comment-67249 jayhuck Sat, 24 Nov 2007 03:12:21 +0000 http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/09/19/new-book-explores-god-and-hillary-clinton/#comment-67249 Eddy, <i>1) I have a general distrust of the judicial system so don’t have faith that they always come to the right judgements. 2) For the guilty, the death penalty ends everything–including their chance to respond to the gospel.</i> I would have to agree with you on all counts!!!!! I think DNA testing has shown us just how injustice our justice system can be at times. Not that I want the system done away with - but I think its good to acknowledge its flaws when we are talking about ending the life of another human being. Eddy,

1) I have a general distrust of the judicial system so don’t have faith that they always come to the right judgements. 2) For the guilty, the death penalty ends everything–including their chance to respond to the gospel.

I would have to agree with you on all counts!!!!! I think DNA testing has shown us just how injustice our justice system can be at times. Not that I want the system done away with – but I think its good to acknowledge its flaws when we are talking about ending the life of another human being.

]]> By: jayhuck http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/09/19/new-book-explores-god-and-hillary-clinton/comment-page-2/#comment-67248 jayhuck Sat, 24 Nov 2007 03:08:59 +0000 http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/09/19/new-book-explores-god-and-hillary-clinton/#comment-67248 Ann, <i>Perhaps, those who want to support abortion and the death penalty then shouldn’t call themselves pro-life</i> Let me rephrase that just a bit - what I should have said is "those who want to support the death penalty BUT not abortion...." I'm really having a hard time being accurate this evening :) I'd like to blame it on the leftover turkey, but I think the problem existed prior to Thanksgiving ;) Ann,

Perhaps, those who want to support abortion and the death penalty then shouldn’t call themselves pro-life

Let me rephrase that just a bit – what I should have said is “those who want to support the death penalty BUT not abortion….” I’m really having a hard time being accurate this evening :) I’d like to blame it on the leftover turkey, but I think the problem existed prior to Thanksgiving ;)

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